Canon Problems with MgT Third Imperium supplements?

[aramis]

I could argue the number of breasts because I seem to recall that mammals give birth to no more offspring than they're able to feed.

The AM says that Aslan very rarely have twin births, so why four?

That's how they are drawn. Note also - many species have occasional multiple births with extra mammaries. Humans, for example - two breasts are the normative for Humans, and single birth is normative - typical nursing is alternating sides for each feeding.

Likewise, Goats have two, but litters of 3 are not unheard of.

Most canines have 8 nipples - but typical litter size is 5...

It's not as firm a rule as one might think. Perhaps the proto-aslan tended to nurse two chronologically separate births, much as Kangaroos tend to. (

 

[whulorigan]

I could argue the number of breasts because I seem to recall that mammals give birth to no more offspring than they're able to feed.

The AM says that Aslan very rarely have twin births, so why four?

That's how they are drawn. Note also - many species have occasional multiple births with extra mammaries. Humans, for example - two breasts are the normative for Humans, and single birth is normative - typical nursing is alternating sides for each feeding.

Likewise, Goats have two, but litters of 3 are not unheard of.

Most canines have 8 nipples - but typical litter size is 5...

It's not as firm a rule as one might think. Perhaps the proto-aslan tended to nurse two chronologically separate births, much as Kangaroos tend to. (

But also keep in mind that Aslan are NOT technically mammals. Mammals are native to Earth's ecological biospehere (or descended from creatures whose ancestor were, at least).

Aslan are in a sense "pseudo-mammaloid" in that there are similarities between Terran mammals and whatever evolutionary family that Aslan belong to on Kusyu, but they are not actually mammals, and therefore do not necessarily follow the same patterns as Terran mammals, even if there are outward similarities.

Perhaps the ancestral creatures from which Aslan and other similar Kusyu-species descended had "litters" of more than two births, but the proto-Aslan evolved to have fewer offspring per litter, but the multiple nursing organs in Aslan females still remain as a vestige.

 

[SanDragon]

Yep, most of those things I had thought of, but decided to be the devil's para-legal for a bit.

 

[savage]

Perhaps the ancestral creatures from which Aslan and other similar Kusyu-species descended had "litters" of more than two births, but the proto-Aslan evolved to have fewer offspring per litter, but the multiple nursing organs in Aslan females still remain as a vestige.

Humans have done mass families at various points in history where having large numbers made sense. For Aslans to move away from that behavior could also be a biological choice. Perhaps they can choose not to have large families when they reproduce. Or it could, be related to the age of the female.

 

[mike wightman]

If there wasn't such prudishness shown to breastfeeding it would be a lot more common - as it was in the past - for a woman to be nursing a newborn and an infant. Maybe not at the same time, but certainly within the same nursing session.

 

[Quint]

Getting back to the original question, "any problems with canon" - - -

When I first read the MgT Imperium books I was really amazed because they seemed grossly more high-tech or science fantasy in some ways that previous interpretations of Traveller canon. Now, this didn't exactly bother me because I found some of the joy of Traveller sucked out by the various arguments about CT vs MT vs TNE vs T5 blah-blah-blah and they seemed a bit more written from the perspective of a modern scifi rather than the scifi of the 50's through 70's that so strongly influenced Traveller.

Now, having read Agent of the Imperium I have to say that I wonder if the MgT version of the so-called "canon universe" is closer to the Mark Miller vision than that of the people arguing that MT (or CT or TNE or whatever) has clearly defined who can do what and at what tech level.

D.

 

[mike wightman]

CT was initially set in the 'frontier' sector of the Spinward Marches - we never got to see what Imperial core sector life was like, I think MgT has sort of improved on this but there is still a way to go.

Marc's novel includes stuff that just wasn't in CT, wafer tech, fusion + and makers to name but three. It is all in T5 however, which leads to the conclusion that all this stuff should be retconned into a CT 3I game if you want to maintain canon compatibility with Marc's current vision for the OTU.

I just wonder if sequel novels will flatten some of the canon conflicts of MT and TNE by waving the Zho reality manipulation wand - Bland knows something like the rebellion, the empress wave and the black Imperium are on the way - what will he do about them and in what way will it bring about a consistent OTU?

 

[GypsyComet]

Marc's novel includes stuff that just wasn't in CT, wafer tech, fusion + and makers to name but three.

The seeds for wafer tech were in CT ("Computer Implants", JTAS 22), but not developed to the level seen in T5.

 

[mike wightman]

And the personality overlay machine is in Expedition to Zhodane.

But the plot of AotI is verging on a transhuman scenario - a consciousness that only exists in computer wafers, and for a month at a time in host bodies, is able to plan for events over decades if not centuries.

I didn't see that coming from CT canon

 

[Xenon]

i have noticed a few issues in the 'spinward marches' third imperium book, specifically with trade codes.

for example, Lunion is not listed as a garden world, but according the the chart to define trade codes in the mongoose rulebook, it should count as one. offhand, it seems that these charts were pulled from a previous edition without editing or checking.

looking to my copy of the T4 rules, i see that there is no garden code there, so this implies a trade code that is simply absent from older editions, and thus also from most online map resources. (I only have mongoose, gurps, and T4 versions of the rules on hand to check)

 

[whulorigan]

i have noticed a few issues in the 'spinward marches' third imperium book, specifically with trade codes.

for example, Lunion is not listed as a garden world, but according the the chart to define trade codes in the mongoose rulebook, it should count as one. offhand, it seems that these charts were pulled from a previous edition without editing or checking.

looking to my copy of the T4 rules, i see that there is no garden code there, so this implies a trade code that is simply absent from older editions, and thus also from most online map resources. (I only have mongoose, gurps, and T4 versions of the rules on hand to check)

Garden World is also in the current T5 Ruleset.

 

[Xenon]

looking at the second survey data on travelermap, T5 is using a different definition of garden worlds, and has a few new codes as well. https://travellermap.com/doc/secondsurvey

upon closer inspection, I see that mongoose only used the garden code on worlds that were already marked as agricultural. so looks like they only partially applied their system. unfortunate, as it implies that all the mongoose-published 3rd imperium books are likely missing some specific information in their trade codes.

the cannon problem here, is that as trade codes change with editions, any map of traveller will become increasingly edition-specific, and any use outside that edition will need an increasing number of edits to conform to the rules in use. it also implies a change in trade goods over time, as the garden code has a significant impact on speculative trade in the mongoose rules.

 

[aramis]

upon closer inspection, I see that mongoose only used the garden code on worlds that were already marked as agricultural. so looks like they only partially applied their system. unfortunate, as it implies that all the mongoose-published 3rd imperium books are likely missing some specific information in their trade codes.

Given their history, and Matthew's openly dismissive attitude in the past toward the OTU, it's likely that the checking wasn't thorough.

 

[robject]

the canon problem here, is that as trade codes change with editions, any map of traveller will become increasingly edition-specific

Likely will simply be noted as errata in Mongoose's text.

 

[Garnfellow]

Given their history, and Matthew's openly dismissive attitude in the past toward the OTU, it's likely that the checking wasn't thorough.

More likely it's that Mongoose Traveller does not use T5 trade classifications, which are used by T5SS. While the two systems are similar, MGT is closer to CT and MT.

I think Garden and Rich are both codes that are slightly different in CT and T5; T5 has a bunch of codes that aren't in MGT or CT like He, Pa, Ph, Pi, Oc. MGT has a couple of codes not in other editions: Lt (low tech) and Ht (High tech).

Someone running a game using MGT trade rules should use the trade classifications in MGT books or translate from Traveller Map data. People using the T5 trade system should use Traveller Map for trade classifications.

These slight discrepancies in classifications between systems do have occassional canon implications. I think the key is to remember that in any system the trade classifications are very broad and not absolute. You could have a world that meets all the Scout Service requirements for a garden world but is tide-locked to an M5V primary and the twilight zone is not at all garden-like; you could have a "technically" agricultural world with a Tundra climate that isn't able to grow much beyond wooly mammoths.

 

[aramis]

More likely it's that Mongoose Traveller does not use T5 trade classifications, which are used by T5SS. While the two systems are similar, MGT is closer to CT and MT.

Trust me - it's more to do with not checking than anything else. Mongoose was supposed to use the T5SS data. Don used to throw fits about their lack of so doing.

 

[Garnfellow]

Trust me - it's more to do with not checking than anything else. Mongoose was supposed to use the T5SS data. Don used to throw fits about their lack of so doing.

I remember. And I fully acknowledge Mongoose has a long and sorry history of quality control that reaches all the way back to their d20 days. I'd be the last one to defend their record on that point.

But if someone spots a difference between current T5SS data and a Mongoose book, there's a heck of a lot more potentially going on than just Mongoose being delinquent.

1. Why would Mongoose ever include trade classifications that don't work with their own game?
2. Marc has not always effectively coordinated communication and efforts between different licensees and initiatives like the T5SS.
3. The T5SS is very much a work in progress; even sectors no longer in review have been subject to sweeping changes.

Take Alpha Crucis, for example. Since the Mongoose Solomani alien module was published, the T5SS has completely redone capitals using T5's Importance mechanic. This resulted in changes in capitals across the Imperium and also added capitals to regions like the Solomani Confederation that rarely had subsector capitals before. So if someone sees a discrepancy here it's not because Mongoose didn't consult the T5SS -- it's because the T5SS completely rewrote the data.

Similarly, right before Don died there was a big data drop that rewrote amber and red zones based on T5's formula. This added a ton of new amber zones to highly populated areas like the Rim or Alpha Crucis. Again, the discrepancy isn't on Mongoose -- it's on the T5SS.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Just to chip in here...

UPPs are not fixed - they get revised periodically, and so changes will happen from time to time. These days, all else being equal (and they are not always equal), we have been told to use Travellermap.com as our touchstone for UPPs.

 

[Whipsnade]

UPPs are not fixed - they get revised periodically, and so changes will happen from time to time.

Mistakes aren't changes so quit pretending they are.

These days, all else being equal (and they are not always equal), we have been told to use Travellermap.com as our touchstone for UPPs.

You were also told to use T5SS and we all know how that turned out.

Listen, we all realize by now that you don't really care. You've been dismissive of canon from the first and you've been excusing your carelessness and mistakes as deliberate changes for just as long.

Do us all a favor, do yourself a favor, and stop making these same excuses every time you get caught.

I'm not asking you to suddenly begin caring and I'm not asking you to suddenly start fact checking because I know you won't do either. Just stop making excuses for your choices.

Own what you do.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

What's all this then?

[m;]Hey now people! Let's be careful here! Things are getting close to people getting tickets for personal attacks here.[/m;]

And let me be clear, as I am forwarding the previous upstairs so there may still be Warnings or Infractions...