Canon Problems with MgT Third Imperium supplements?

[maksimsmelchak]

These slight discrepancies in classifications between systems do have occassional canon implications. I think the key is to remember that in any system the trade classifications are very broad and not absolute. You could have a world that meets all the Scout Service requirements for a garden world but is tide-locked to an M5V primary and the twilight zone is not at all garden-like; you could have a "technically" agricultural world with a Tundra climate that isn't able to grow much beyond wooly mammoths.

I once tried to wrap my mind about the Ga (Garden world) code. As far as I can tell, it refers to a world along Terrestrial Earth-like conditions, meaning an agricultural (Ag) world with a temperate (Tp) climate, not tropical or tundra, cold environments. In other words, it is a world capable of sustaining homo sapiens under relatively comfortable conditions with abundant temperate climate crops such as life-sustaining grains, vegetables, and fruits. And where those plant products exist, so can corresponding livestock animal foodstuffs...

Certainly, agricultural (Ag) worlds could appear with different climates.

Early Traveller sometimes called them Terra Prime worlds...

But, I'm certainly no expert... I would go to Rob, Aramis, Jim, or Thomas for one of those...

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[McPerth]

MgT is a more free setting versión thet MT or TNE, in this way retourning to CT origins.

I have not read much about its 3I supplements, but even in its CB and HG it has some details that are hardly compatible with OTU, as are some tech changes (e.g. the drastically lowered TLs for PBs and AI).

But the plot of AotI is verging on a transhuman scenario - a consciousness that only exists in computer wafers, and for a month at a time in host bodies, is able to plan for events over decades if not centuries.

I didn't see that coming from CT canon

I fully agree with this. Its plot reminds me more about Vampire's Jihad than to anything I've seen in previous Traveller OTU materials.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

"Han Shot First"
"The Expanded Universe is no longer canon.."
OK now that I framed my rant. :rofl::devil::rofl:

Editions change stuff. Whether you (being those who disagree with the change) like it or not. Mistakes or ignoring the past do not de-canonize/invalidate new material completely/automatically, nor does newer material automatically invalidate old.

But, robject, I have seen you posting a similar question on each board with the goal of creating canon writing guidelines. Is that correct? Is this what are you really trying to get at?

 

[Whipsnade]

Editions change stuff. Whether you (being those who disagree with the change) like it or not. Mistakes or ignoring the past do not de-canonize/invalidate new material completely/automatically, nor does newer material automatically invalidate old.

I've no problem with changes. I've no problem with mistakes.

I do have a problem, however, with excuses.

There's a great difference between changes and mistakes on one hand and excuses on the other.

Compare and contrast these two conversations:

Publisher: "Here's the new book. We changed some things."
Buyer: "I don't like changes, but they happen."
Publisher: "We thought it was needed."
Buyer: "Okay, I'll look it over."

Publisher: "Here's the new book."
Buyer: "This changed. Is it a mistake?"
Publisher: "Yes. Sorry about that."
Buyer: "Okay, mistakes happen. Thank you."

with this thing:

Publisher: "Here's the new book."
Buyer: "This changed. Is it a mistake?"
Publisher: Uhhh... no... uhhh... that's... ahhh... that's a change... Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket. That's a change. It's a change."
Buyer: "Okay...."

In the first two examples, both the change and mistake are owned.

In the last example, the mistake becomes a change as an excuse.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

First, Whipsnade, I was not there for that conversation or thread. I sympathize on the matter in general though.

(Taking off my fanboy hat) I like living in la la land. :nonono: I do not like taking off my fanboy hat to deal with real life here and explain my thought process.:nonono:
:CoW:
It is all the responsibility of the sole (primary?) IP holder, Mr. Marc Miller. If there is such a thing as blame for Matt Sprange's interpretation of the OTU/Third Imperium, it falls upon the shoulders of Mr. Miller.

• First, Marc owes us nothing. We buy stuff from the brand he owns. It is his baby to do with as he wishes. From what I have read in threads it sounds like he cares about this Traveller thing. He wrote and published a novel, so I guess he is still involved beyond just manipulating the business of the IP.
• I also read that Marc is too busy with real life. This is just excusing him of responsibility from the directions Traveller is taking whether liked or disliked by us.
• Regardless of the quality of Mongoose products (some ARE real stinkers) or Sprange's personal qualities (I am taking your word on it Whipsnade), it is still on Marc. If Marc cannot pull the plug and wants to, on Marc for bad contract or business decision. If Marc can but does not do so, the "sins" of Matt/Mongoose are not so egregiousness by Marc's reasoning (whatever is involved there) to pull the plug, so still on Marc.

(putting fanboy hat back on)

So, robject, what are you trying to do? Are you trying to set up general writing guidelines for OTU canon, T5 canon or what? Is this part of the TAS writing initiative I read about in driverthru? Are you trying to create an editorial/canonicity board as had been done with the Star Wars Expanded Universe?

 

[Whipsnade]

... Sprange's personal qualities...

Let's stop right there before your incomprehension causes additional problems.

I've have said nothing about Mr. Sprange's personal qualities. Understand? Nothing.

All I have done is point to a repeated behavior on the part of Mongoose as a company. Nothing more.

I'll be checking out this thread now before other misunderstandings occur.

 

[Garnfellow]

OK, let's get back to the thread topic. The Mongoose Aslan module's dating of the Cultural Purge differs from previous sources.

The original CT alien module does not mention either the Great Conclave (Sakolusalo) or the Cultural Purge (Uwarafyekose). MegaTraveller Solomani and Aslan has the Conclave beginning in -63 IY and ending in -7 IY. S&A has the Cultural Purge beginning in -56 IY and ending in 49 IY. These dates are repeated in the Regency Sourcebook and GURPS Traveller: Alien Races 2.

The date ranges of these two momentous events overlap, but reading S&A p 62 suggests the events were sequential: the Conclave met, reached some conclusions, and then the Cultural Purge kicked off. Were the S&A dates in error, or was the overlap intentional?

Mongoose Traveller: Aslan has the Conclave beginning in -63 IY in agreement with past sources but introduces a new concept, the aisekhokhe entse, "kinstrife in the stars," a sprawling interclan conflict of which the Cultural Purge was only one particularly intense phase:

Aisekhokhe entse lasted nearly two hundred and fifty years, although there were long periods of relative peace or at least limited war during this period. Most of the truly bloody battles happened in the first century (Uwaralyekose or Cultural Purge), when great fleets of khiraokhaor’ya and tsekho warships engaged each other in systems close to Kusyu.

Mongoose Traveller: Aslan p 59.​

The concept of Aisekhokhe entse is a nice addition to Aslan history, but the text around this passage seems to mix up Aisekhokhe entse and Uwaralyekose and compounds this by possibly botching the conversion of dates from Aslan to Imperial calendars.

The text states "The cultural wars from 2512 to 2701 were inter-clan wars but they had all the divisions and bitter struggle of a civil war" (59). Converting these dates to Imperial gives us a range from 120 to 286, putting the start of conflict as much too late compared to past sources and conflicts with the timeline on page 62, which has the Cultural Purge beginning in -7 IY and ending -290.

It's unclear if the Mongoose book is attempting to retcon the timeline so that the Purge follows the Conclave, or simply scrambled the conversion.

I think I would reconcile this mess as follows:

• -63. The Great Conclave (Sakolusalo) is convened on Kusyu
• -56. As the Conclave debates, interclan rivalries break out into Aisekhokhe entse across the Hierate
• -7. The Conclave concludes and the Aslan Cultural Purge (Uwaralyekose) begins
• 49. The Cultural Purge ends, but less intense interclan conflict continues
• 290. The Aisekhokhe entse ends