Cash in Traveller

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Spiderfish:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Laryssa:
The cores of asteroids are alot closer than the core of the Earth.

In what way? [...]
</font>[/QUOTE]I assume he meant the core of the asteroid is closer to the asteroid's surface.
</font>[/QUOTE]I was trying not to assume.

In any event, that fact that there is a major difference of distance between an asteroid's surface and its core, and Terra's surface and its core, is not an indicator that former planetary core fragments will be filled with mountains of valuable metals that will be easily exploited.

The pressures at the Earth's core probably cause everything to exist in a heterogenous state. Mass seas of nickel/iron mixed up with vastly smaller concentrations of the other metals dispersed among the larger mass.

-------------------------------------------

Also, planets are extremely unlikely to form around the types of stars that will go supernova. The lifespans of such stars are too short for the planetary formation process to complete.

This means that when a star goes supernova, there won't be any planets there for it to burn to a cinder (or blow apart).

 

[Laryssa]

Besides, paper money burns easily. If I'm going to kill a bunch or pirates with my plasma gun, so much the better if their treasure were made of metal rather than paper!

 

[mike wightman]

 

[Laryssa]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Spiderfish:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Laryssa:
The cores of asteroids are alot closer than the core of the Earth.

In what way? [...]
</font>[/QUOTE]I assume he meant the core of the asteroid is closer to the asteroid's surface.
</font>[/QUOTE]I was trying not to assume.

In any event, that fact that there is a major difference of distance between an asteroid's surface and its core, and Terra's surface and its core, is not an indicator that former planetary core fragments will be filled with mountains of valuable metals that will be easily exploited.

The pressures at the Earth's core probably cause everything to exist in a heterogenous state. Mass seas of nickel/iron mixed up with vastly smaller concentrations of the other metals dispersed among the larger mass.

-------------------------------------------

Also, planets are extremely unlikely to form around the types of stars that will go supernova. The lifespans of such stars are too short for the planetary formation process to complete.

This means that when a star goes supernova, there won't be any planets there for it to burn to a cinder (or blow apart). </font>[/QUOTE]But larger concentrations than at the surface. Gravity serveo deplete the surface of its heavy metals when the planet is in it molten state.

Besides, scarcity is the key to carrying large quatities of money in small spaces. If gold was not scarce it might as well be iron. One can always carry ones money in the form of millions of tons of iron, but its not very practical to do that. It is hard to make any pattern of information difficult to duplicate. If you have encryption schemes, they are just so much information that's readily reproducable. Making different kinds of elements is harder than making money out of paterns of carbon atoms, and hydrogen atoms etc. You just rearrange common ordinary atoms and suddenly you've got money. With gold, you got to find or make those rare gold atoms.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Laryssa:
Besides, paper money burns easily. If I'm going to kill a bunch or pirates with my plasma gun, so much the better if their treasure were made of metal rather than paper!

Oh man! Cleaning molten piles of metal out of burned pirate guts is nasty.

 

[Laryssa]

Alot better than cleaning the burn ashes of what once was one million credits but is no longer.

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Laryssa:
Besides, scarcity is the key to carrying large quatities of money in small spaces. If gold was not scarce it might as well be iron.

But upthread you argue that gold isn't scarce at all - it in fact, all sorts of precious metals are floating around in space for the taking from asteroid "cores":

Originally posted by Laryssa:
But in space, there is alot more gold!

Which is it?

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Laryssa:
Alot better than cleaning the burn ashes of what once was one million credits but is no longer.

I think I need to point out that Imperial credits aren't made of paper.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Laryssa:
Besides, scarcity is the key [...]

But upthread you argue that gold isn't scarce at all - it in fact, all sorts of precious metals are floating around in space for the taking from asteroid "cores":

Originally posted by Laryssa:
But in space, there is alot more gold!

Which is it?
</font>[/QUOTE]Well, at Cr300/kg, gold is pretty cheap.

10 troy oz. per pound, 2.2 pounds per kilo, todays gold (615.30) is worth $13,536.6 per kilo, and if you divide by about three (roughly) to get 1976 dollars (translating into Imperial Credits), or Cr4,512.2.

So, in this metals-driven ATU, gold is about 15.0406667 times cheaper than it is today.

Can you imagine gold being worth only $40.91 today? Ouch! Talk about a kick in the pants of value.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
I think I need to point out that Imperial credits aren't made of paper.

True, some kind of polymer isn't it. In any case maybe it's quite nigh indestructible future tech. I see no problem with them being very difficult to deface or destroy as part of the anti-tamper and anti-forge quality.

"Imperial Credit Notes? Let's see one."

<skeptic crumples note up into little ball of folds>

>note springs back to crisp new look with no creases thanks to note's memory fibers<

<skeptic places note on table and takes out sharp knife and slices across the note several times>

>note remains whole and table is gouged around it thanks to note's armor<

<skeptic takes out laser pistol and placing note on floor fires at it>

>floor is scorched except where note was lying thanks to note's reflec coating<

<points laser pistol at currency courier>

"Seems genuine. I'll take them all."

 

[Laryssa]

Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Laryssa:
Besides, scarcity is the key to carrying large quatities of money in small spaces. If gold was not scarce it might as well be iron.

But upthread you argue that gold isn't scarce at all - it in fact, all sorts of precious metals are floating around in space for the taking from asteroid "cores":

Originally posted by Laryssa:
But in space, there is alot more gold!

Which is it? </font>[/QUOTE]Gold is less precious than it is today so that 10 silver credit coins is worth 1 gold coin, but gold is still precious, its just that space mining has increased its relative abundance more than it has silver.

The coins I use in traveller are these:

1 penny is made of copper and weighs one three hundredth of a kilogram and is worth 1 cent.

1 nickle is made of silver plated copper and weighs one sixtieth of a kilogram and is worth 5 cents.

1 dime is made of silver and weighs one three hundreth of a kilogram and is worth 10 cents.

1 quarter is made of silver and weighs 1 one hundred twentieth of a kilogram and is worth 25 cents.

1 Silver Credit is made of silver and weighs one thirtieth of a kilogram and is worth Cr1.00

The Ten Credit coin is made of gold and weighs one thirtieth of a kilogram and is worth Cr10.00.

The 100 credit coin is made of iridium and weighs one thirtieth of a kilogram and is worth Cr100.00.

The 1,000 credit coin is made of Rhodium and weighs one thirthieth of a kilogram and is worth Cr1,000.

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Laryssa:
Gold is less precious than it is today so that 10 silver credit coins is worth 1 gold coin, but gold is still precious, its just that space mining has increased its relative abundance more than it has silver.

Hmmm...I wouldn't make that same set of assumptions IMTU, but if it works for you in yours, more power to you.

Imperial credits IMTU are polymer discs up to values of ImpCr50, then polymer sheets from ImpCr100 on up. As I mentioned, specie is used on some isolated low-tech worlds, but mostly it's a collector's novelty.

 

[mike wightman]

You know, for some reason I really like the image of boarding a corsair, fighting in bitter hand to hand combat with the pirate scum, and then, when the ship is ours, being able to break into the captain's strongroom and wallow in all the gold and jewels...

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
You know, for some reason I really like the image of boarding a corsair, fighting in bitter hand to hand combat with the pirate scum, and then, when the ship is ours, being able to break into the captain's strongroom and wallow in all the gold and jewels...

Absolutely, but the gold is bullion rather than coin-of-the-realm IMTU.

 

[Laryssa]

So what would a space pirate's treasure look like?

In a classic pirate campaign, the pirate's treasure is usually contained in a dead man's chest, buried in some tropical Isle in a location demarked by a treasure map.

Usually some skeleton key opens the chest, and inside is a pile of gold and silver interspersed with jewelry and jems and maybe a fancy sword or pistol as well.

Now is a Traveller campaign:

What is a pirate's treasure contained in?

Where is it buried?

What kind of treasure map is used?

When you open the container what do you find inside?

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Laryssa:
So what would a space pirate's treasure look like?

A bunch of captured starships, all lined up in a neat row.

Originally posted by Laryssa:
What is a pirate's treasure contained in?

Bonded Superdense.

Originally posted by Laryssa:
Where is it buried?

Below the cloud layer of a smaller gas giant circling some distant brown dwarf no one but the pirate and a few select friends have ever heard of.

Originally posted by Laryssa:
What kind of treasure map is used?

Navigation chip.

Originally posted by Laryssa:
When you open the container what do you find inside?

A low-birth modular cutter section filled with enough qualified personnel to prize-crew all those starships to some port where you can sell them!

 

[Laryssa]

If pirates concentrate on stealing starships, the crews are going to be seriously undermanned.

"Captain Captain, we're under attack!"

"Well, who's manning the guns?"

"That'd be Jerry, but he's flying the other ship we stole."

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Laryssa:
If pirates concentrate on stealing starships, the crews are going to be seriously undermanned.

"Captain Captain, we're under attack!"

"Well, who's manning the guns?"

"That'd be Jerry, but he's flying the other ship we stole."

If you steal starships, you only need to do so once in a while. They're worth more than almost any cargo that could be found aboard.

 

[aramis]

Stolen ships are hard to fence unless one is privateering.

Hard to fence generally means less money.

Steal spec cargo and you can also steal the bill of sale; steal freight, and you have to fake the papers or make the delivery to maximize value, or sell to a fence.

Ships I can see being fenced for mils on the dollar (1/1000th fair market value) simply due to the hassles of selling them due to identifiability.

Freight, at least freight not useful to the pirates themselves, can be sold off-intended route with minor hassles... so long as one knows the ethically challenged brokers! Probably making 10% to 30% of FMV.

A legitimate prize awarded in full by a legitimate prize court whilst under letters of marque and reprisal, is a serious turn of luck. Good enough to repair the ship and still pay each man enough to retire on.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Stolen ships are hard to fence unless one is privateering.

Then skip that part.

Just jump the nearest border into Aslan or Vargr territory (where your home and pals are), and sell the ships on consignment through the local used ships broker.