All I can say is that I hope you didn't pay these 3+ attorneys very much. They clearly have very little knowledge of this subject and have done you a disservice.
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Cepheus adventures
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
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All I can say is that I hope you didn't pay these 3+ attorneys very much. They clearly have very little knowledge of this subject and have done you a disservice.
Most attorneys do not "know the field inside and out," when the field is the matter of OGL. There are very few attorneys familiar with the ins and outs of RPG licensing. A generic copyright attorney would probably know exactly what to do if you handed them the OGL, the various Traveller licenses, the Cepheus Engine license, and so on, and I cannot imagine any situation in which a competent lawyer would read those licenses and tell someone they cannot publish gaming material based on the licensed material, since literally thousands of other people are doing it every day without legal problems. It's just that most IP lawyers won't know about those licenses. And even if they do, they may not understand what a freaking RPG is at all, so it's hard for them to advise on the topic.
A handful of 3P OGL publishers also happen to be lawyers (like Clark Peterson, I believe) and they're very comfortable publishing material under the OGL for various properties.
(As an aside, it's astounding how poorly people conform with the two or three requirements of the OGL when publishing derivative works that require it. The license is very short, relatively straightforward and simple, and very clear about what you need to do.)
A handful of 3P OGL publishers also happen to be lawyers (like Clark Peterson, I believe) and they're very comfortable publishing material under the OGL for various properties.
(As an aside, it's astounding how poorly people conform with the two or three requirements of the OGL when publishing derivative works that require it. The license is very short, relatively straightforward and simple, and very clear about what you need to do.)
Nightwind1
SOC-12
THIS! This is why I earlier stated that the attorney didn't know Whiskey Tango Foxtrot he was talking about.
There is another important consideration for the OGL. There's no case law.
Until there's case law, the OGL is on its face cannot be taken as viable.
There is some very limited case law about the GNU Public License (GPL), and about some other "Use constitutes acceptance of license terms" in software, but not for boardgames and card games.
Some of the European nations' Creators Rights laws potentially create a minefield for the OGL as well. As in, you cannot force abrogation of those rights even by contract. Been a bit of a deal in the board game industry; further, in France, a games mechanics are covered under creators rights. The Jungle Speed case - same play, totally different wording to the rules; the infringement was in fact upheld and the variant game is now banned in France. (Even tho' it was published outside of france.)
IP law is a bloody minefield, and the only method of mine detection is the Polish Army Version from WW 1: Walk a bunch of people across the field, see who gets blown up.
I am not a lawyer. I am especially not Your Lawyer.
Based upon the case law I've seen, the OGL is likely to hold up once challenged. Likely. Not assured. Any lawyer worth his salary his going to warn you that until there's either blackletter law supporting it or case law upholding it, it's a risk.
And in IP law, if you lose, you don't just lose money, you lose the IP as well.
So any attorney doing his job is going to say, "If you want to be assured of your IP rights, do not use any open license." They might make an exception for the GPL and GNUFDL, as the software industry has those sorted in some case law.
Until there's case law, the OGL is on its face cannot be taken as viable.
There is some very limited case law about the GNU Public License (GPL), and about some other "Use constitutes acceptance of license terms" in software, but not for boardgames and card games.
Some of the European nations' Creators Rights laws potentially create a minefield for the OGL as well. As in, you cannot force abrogation of those rights even by contract. Been a bit of a deal in the board game industry; further, in France, a games mechanics are covered under creators rights. The Jungle Speed case - same play, totally different wording to the rules; the infringement was in fact upheld and the variant game is now banned in France. (Even tho' it was published outside of france.)
IP law is a bloody minefield, and the only method of mine detection is the Polish Army Version from WW 1: Walk a bunch of people across the field, see who gets blown up.
I am not a lawyer. I am especially not Your Lawyer.
Based upon the case law I've seen, the OGL is likely to hold up once challenged. Likely. Not assured. Any lawyer worth his salary his going to warn you that until there's either blackletter law supporting it or case law upholding it, it's a risk.
And in IP law, if you lose, you don't just lose money, you lose the IP as well.
So any attorney doing his job is going to say, "If you want to be assured of your IP rights, do not use any open license." They might make an exception for the GPL and GNUFDL, as the software industry has those sorted in some case law.
Lots of good points, though I have in the past worked for a tech industry giant that banks it's business on GPL (and some other licenses). The good news for the open source industry is that should a court case come up that put the open source community at significant risk, this industry giant would start firing some pretty big guns...
Now I work for a tech industry almost giant that banks it's ENTIRE business on open source.
OGL is certainly a different case, on the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if the Free Software Foundation (and then possibly either of my employers) would stick it's nose into any serious case involving the OGL for fear that a bad precedent there could carry over to the GPL.
But of course with anything involving law, consult your own lawyer. But make sure you pick a lawyer that's actually familiar with this stuff otherwise you will either get an overly conservative recommendation, or a recommendation that is wrong in a way that puts you at risk.
Frank
[Caveats: I am not a lawyer. Do not stake your future on the opinions of people on the Internet who you have not retained as your attorney.]
OGL isn't exactly copyright law. It's contract law, and contract law is pretty clearly established territory. Contract law as it applies to copyright is also very well established (subrights in book publishing and media).
Follow the contract, the company sublicenses these copyrights to you to create derivative works.
If you don't follow the contract and create derivative works anyway, then you're in "what does copyright law say about this?" territory, and may God have mercy on your soul. If anyone bothers to sue, since even bringing a case is expensive, but so is defending one.
For the case we're talking about, the OGL isn't anything like a EULA. Not even close. With derivative works, you have zero right to create one if you're not within the Fair Use zone. Zero. If you want that right, you have to negotiate with the copyright owner for it. The OGL just makes that part easy. It is not a contract of adhesion.
A EULA is something that grants you rights you probably thought you had already due to a purchase. Often, by the time you have the product in hand, that's when you notice the EULA (for stuff shipped to you), or maybe you notice at check-out when they spring 50 pages of fine print on you. Often, it's a contract of adhesion, and these get thrown out of court sometimes.
Sure, both a EULA and the OGL put conditions on the use of a product you just paid for. In the case of the OGL, you had no rights to produce derivative works to begin with, except within Fair Use doctrine. In the case of a EULA for, say, a piece of software, they're putting limitations on how you can use that and probably telling you that you don't own it (you're just licensing it), which is essentially you signing AWAY your rights. They're very different because of the direction the rights are going.
OGL isn't exactly copyright law. It's contract law, and contract law is pretty clearly established territory. Contract law as it applies to copyright is also very well established (subrights in book publishing and media).
Follow the contract, the company sublicenses these copyrights to you to create derivative works.
If you don't follow the contract and create derivative works anyway, then you're in "what does copyright law say about this?" territory, and may God have mercy on your soul. If anyone bothers to sue, since even bringing a case is expensive, but so is defending one.
For the case we're talking about, the OGL isn't anything like a EULA. Not even close. With derivative works, you have zero right to create one if you're not within the Fair Use zone. Zero. If you want that right, you have to negotiate with the copyright owner for it. The OGL just makes that part easy. It is not a contract of adhesion.
A EULA is something that grants you rights you probably thought you had already due to a purchase. Often, by the time you have the product in hand, that's when you notice the EULA (for stuff shipped to you), or maybe you notice at check-out when they spring 50 pages of fine print on you. Often, it's a contract of adhesion, and these get thrown out of court sometimes.
Sure, both a EULA and the OGL put conditions on the use of a product you just paid for. In the case of the OGL, you had no rights to produce derivative works to begin with, except within Fair Use doctrine. In the case of a EULA for, say, a piece of software, they're putting limitations on how you can use that and probably telling you that you don't own it (you're just licensing it), which is essentially you signing AWAY your rights. They're very different because of the direction the rights are going.
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Many apologies for getting my own thread off topic. I did not intend to discuss the lagalities of publishing for games. It's merely a facet that's prevented me from doing what I wanted.
However, as of 10AM this morning heading to the store, I was again harassed with a religious bent, and so my strike continues until this abates permanently.
What I really wanted to pose, and how I should have asked, is if an adventure written for one version of Traveller attracts or dis-ways you from looking at it. I do think, however, that I probably answered my own question, and perhaps a better question might be would you purchase a generic "yellow box" brand to incorporate or use in your Traveller game session.
Thanks for the replies. I probably should have posted this in the opinion poll section.
Many apologies and again, many thanks.
However, as of 10AM this morning heading to the store, I was again harassed with a religious bent, and so my strike continues until this abates permanently.
What I really wanted to pose, and how I should have asked, is if an adventure written for one version of Traveller attracts or dis-ways you from looking at it. I do think, however, that I probably answered my own question, and perhaps a better question might be would you purchase a generic "yellow box" brand to incorporate or use in your Traveller game session.
Thanks for the replies. I probably should have posted this in the opinion poll section.
Many apologies and again, many thanks.
baktegon
SOC-12
To add some specific confirmation for you BG, i did exactly this for my previous campaign, and am doing exactly this for my campaign starting this week. i used the Linkworlds Cluster T20 campaign book but we're playing the game with the Mongoose 2E rules.
I appreciated that Linkworlds was written as traveller version-agnostic as possible, it has stats and some suggestions of dice rolls in the d20 system, but all of that is easily converted to 2d6. my players and i both enjoyed it. especially as a new referee to traveller it was nice to get some background on the worlds of the cluster, history, powerful people and groups, etc. really helped with the worldbuilding.
personally the story material itself is more interesting than what version of traveller or even game it's from. i can add the rules and stats layer. i've also lined up some cyberpunk 2020 adventures for this traveller campaign so go figure.
The answer to your real question for me is, if your adventure sparks my interest, yes, I would buy it and potentially use it. If I used it, I would run it under the system I'm using (which conceivably might not even be Traveller or a clone) and I would place it into my setting.
In that vein, the less your adventure depends on specific setting stuff or specific game mechanics the better.
As to worlds, you could write the adventure with a specific world of the 3I in mind, but when you publish, just give the UWP of the world, and if necessary, any details of the world pertinent to your adventure in your own words (that part could be tricky, using the UWP is easy - CE provides your working definition for the UWP).
Frank
Thanks.
Like I say, it had been my intent to start just cranking them out as fast as I could, but it's like copyright law has been gamed to the point of walking on egg shells.
And again, like I say, as of this morning I had the wind taken out of my sails, so it's not a big deal anymore.
The 3I is confining and restrictive (I think I already mentioned this) which isn't such a big deal, but to write "outside the box" so to speak, means you run other risks.
I could always design my own system, but I'm not a game designer. I'm a writer with story and adventure concepts, a lot of which I would have liked to add to the official 3I setting.
Whatever.
Like I say, it had been my intent to start just cranking them out as fast as I could, but it's like copyright law has been gamed to the point of walking on egg shells.
And again, like I say, as of this morning I had the wind taken out of my sails, so it's not a big deal anymore.
The 3I is confining and restrictive (I think I already mentioned this) which isn't such a big deal, but to write "outside the box" so to speak, means you run other risks.
I could always design my own system, but I'm not a game designer. I'm a writer with story and adventure concepts, a lot of which I would have liked to add to the official 3I setting.
Whatever.
Don't know how I really feel about paying for one page adventures.
Which is why I've tried to endeavor to write rich material that is lengthier, like the classic D&D adventures which required more than one evening of play.
So, I don't want to be on strike, and the little detail that's extended it is being dealt with as I write this post.
We'll see what happens.
I want to thank everyone who's given me support and exchanged thoughts. You people are great. I mean that. I'm just sorry there isn't a real orbital complex at Regina that we call can't meet up at and sit down, laugh and tell stories about high-adventure.
Thanks again. You people are really great. Thanks much for this old Traveller to all you veterans. I can't think of a better forum to come to. I really can't.
So, I don't want to be on strike, and the little detail that's extended it is being dealt with as I write this post.
We'll see what happens.
I want to thank everyone who's given me support and exchanged thoughts. You people are great. I mean that. I'm just sorry there isn't a real orbital complex at Regina that we call can't meet up at and sit down, laugh and tell stories about high-adventure.
Thanks again. You people are really great. Thanks much for this old Traveller to all you veterans. I can't think of a better forum to come to. I really can't.
Interesting reading about OGL, IP, etc.
When I bought d&d modules for myd&d game world, I always modified them. TSR, Judges Guild, etc.
I would do the same for any Traveller-type modules, scenarios, etc.
I started doing this because some of my players, who never ran a game session, would buy modules and memorize them. So I moved corridors in a dungeon, moved the main treasure etc.
To get back to Traveller. I and one of my players is interested in running a Traveller game, to learn it and for me to get used to Epic Table. I do have the FFE CD of pdfs. I'll probably try the CT ones, and maybe the GURPS ones, and then decide from there.
I would be interested in modules, not single page adventures, and I do understand your concern over the legal ramifications. Cost could be a problem for me, as I am on social security.
When I bought d&d modules for myd&d game world, I always modified them. TSR, Judges Guild, etc.
I would do the same for any Traveller-type modules, scenarios, etc.
I started doing this because some of my players, who never ran a game session, would buy modules and memorize them. So I moved corridors in a dungeon, moved the main treasure etc.
To get back to Traveller. I and one of my players is interested in running a Traveller game, to learn it and for me to get used to Epic Table. I do have the FFE CD of pdfs. I'll probably try the CT ones, and maybe the GURPS ones, and then decide from there.
I would be interested in modules, not single page adventures, and I do understand your concern over the legal ramifications. Cost could be a problem for me, as I am on social security.
baktegon
SOC-12
the bundles of six or so adventures are five bucks, and each individual one is less than a dollar generally, not a huge investment to try some new material. i didn't mind it at least.
my players in particular wanted to have a bit more episodic campaign, i have a core three people who come every week but then three or four more people who can't make every session, so they felt a bit left out of the campaign-length story we were playing in the last campaign. we're rolling characters tomorrow night and starting week after so we'll see how it goes!
Michael Brown has a ton of these out there now and they are great stuff. They are generic and could very easily be used in setting. They are generally a dollar in price.
We at GKG have our 21 Plots series that have 21 adventures using the "patron" format. They are set in in our Clement Sector setting but you could easily modify them to whatever setting you are using. They are 4.99 each for the PDF.
You can locate all of these on Drive thru and there are others. You really should check them out.
We at GKG have our 21 Plots series that have 21 adventures using the "patron" format. They are set in in our Clement Sector setting but you could easily modify them to whatever setting you are using. They are 4.99 each for the PDF.
You can locate all of these on Drive thru and there are others. You really should check them out.
Game On
So I had a lengthy discussion with a real cool dude in the East Bay, and he and I exchanged life experiences regarding a number of topics, and he and some people in the Southbay are just the medicine I needed at this highly critical juncture.
I've sent some PMs to interested people, and maybe we can see some offerings up on Drivethru by the end of the summer.
Again, you people are great.
Of all the RPGs and warsims I've played, this forum always seems the most inviting. I mentioned this way back in 2003 or so, a couple years after I joined, because other forums for a variety of RPGs and warsims tend to be extremely combative. But you people are pretty civil, and just a good bunch all around. I'm sure there'll be more bumps in the road ahead, but again, many many thanks.
Not to get too poetic nor touchy feeling here, but recall that time when you first picked up Book 0 (as I had done way back in ... 79?), or that time when your best friend gave you the starter edition for your birthday as mine had. It was a wondrous feeling to explore the 3I and read about starships and everything else. I hope I can impart some of that to you all.
Thanks again.
So I had a lengthy discussion with a real cool dude in the East Bay, and he and I exchanged life experiences regarding a number of topics, and he and some people in the Southbay are just the medicine I needed at this highly critical juncture.
I've sent some PMs to interested people, and maybe we can see some offerings up on Drivethru by the end of the summer.
Again, you people are great.
Of all the RPGs and warsims I've played, this forum always seems the most inviting. I mentioned this way back in 2003 or so, a couple years after I joined, because other forums for a variety of RPGs and warsims tend to be extremely combative. But you people are pretty civil, and just a good bunch all around. I'm sure there'll be more bumps in the road ahead, but again, many many thanks.
Not to get too poetic nor touchy feeling here, but recall that time when you first picked up Book 0 (as I had done way back in ... 79?), or that time when your best friend gave you the starter edition for your birthday as mine had. It was a wondrous feeling to explore the 3I and read about starships and everything else. I hope I can impart some of that to you all.
Thanks again.
Bravesteel
SOC-12
I look forward to checking out what you have to offer, Blue Ghost, rock on!
I have a license agreement with Judges Guild to use some of their IP for my own work. I wanted a lawyer to look it over because it the first contract of that type I ever signed and I wanted to make sure it said what what Bob Bledsaw Jr. and I agreed to verbally.
A lawyer friend of mine had a recommendation for me and I arranged for an appointment. As part of setting this up I submitted the agreement and some other stuff to get him up to speed.
The day of appointment arrived. The guy was knowledgable, friendly and eager to help me except he obviously was approaching this from the standpoint of maximizing my rights and minimizing my exposure to lawsuits. While he meant well, if I blindly followed his suggestions it would have scuttled the deal with Bob Bledsaw Jr.
Without getting into the nuts and bolts of it, it was about using the maps and placenames of the Wilderlands for X% of royalties. Additional details was about how I was to pay and report the royalties.
I thanked him for his diligence and explained in plain english exactly what the agreement was about. I asked him.
1) Does the contract clearly state what was agreed to?
2) Does the contract obligated me to anything further other than what I agreed to?
His answer to #1 was yes, and the answer to #2 was no.
During the course of the conversation I had to explain the Open Game License, the d20 System Reference Document, and how I was distributing the material before he got a clear picture of what I was doing. He found it unusual as in his experience people tend to want to hold on as tightly as possible to their IP. I pointed out that Bob Blesdaw Jr. was doing this license as a favor for work I had done. Normally a publisher at my level would get to do what I wanted to do with an established IP. So I am taking advantage of an opportunity to do something that I never thought I would be able to do.
Second, using the d20 SRD saves me a boat load of time in development and allows me to tap into an an existing audience looking for support for their favorite RPG. So it only fair to "compensate" by releasing any rules I created as open content. If I didn't want to do this I would take Option #5 in John's post.
Once I laid this out for the lawyer, he went "OK that unusual but I can see it working. As long as you hold up the contract and work with the IP holder on any questions it should work out."
That what you face with your situation. What we do is a niche of a niche. You have to formulate what it is you want to do. Ask the same two questions I did. And above all TEACH the lawyer about the Open Game License and the details of the RPG hobby and Traveller. Then he can properly advise you of any pitfalls.
At our level, the United States civil legal system is not a game of gotcha. It about enforcing agreements between two parties in form of contracts and licenses. The Open Game License license is clear about what permissions is being granted and what your obligations are. In addition we are well into the second DECADE of people publishing under the OGL and there are numerous examples from which to draw from including for Traveller itself.
Again if you don't inform your lawyer of all this, then their advice will be useless to your situation.
EDIT: I see you come to a resolution to some of your questions. I hope my response proves useful in a general sense.
Thanks, estar.
You know ... all I wanted to do was to write for Traveller on the side. I didn't want to make a career out of it, but trying to get myself into a position where I can has turned into a career. And that's kind of the exasperation that's overwhelmed me professionally.
Traveller is restricting for creativity, but I like it's grounded setting in that it sticks mostly with security themes. What I would have liked to have done was to explore some of the more traditional scifi tropes, but a lot of those are not allowed by Marc Miller. So in order to reach out and exercise some concepts that I have, I need to either design my own game (which I don't want to do) or write for another system.
So ... with that in mind, if I'm allowed to do what I want, how I want, when I want, the way I want, then there's no issue.
Traveller is not a "big scifi property", but it's been around, and I have a deep affection for it and would like to professionally contribute to it. That's about all I can add at this point.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. It does help.
You know ... all I wanted to do was to write for Traveller on the side. I didn't want to make a career out of it, but trying to get myself into a position where I can has turned into a career. And that's kind of the exasperation that's overwhelmed me professionally.
Traveller is restricting for creativity, but I like it's grounded setting in that it sticks mostly with security themes. What I would have liked to have done was to explore some of the more traditional scifi tropes, but a lot of those are not allowed by Marc Miller. So in order to reach out and exercise some concepts that I have, I need to either design my own game (which I don't want to do) or write for another system.
So ... with that in mind, if I'm allowed to do what I want, how I want, when I want, the way I want, then there's no issue.
Traveller is not a "big scifi property", but it's been around, and I have a deep affection for it and would like to professionally contribute to it. That's about all I can add at this point.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. It does help.
