Cepheus Engine - does it help Traveller?

[Spenser TR]

I've been wondering about this ever since I learned of the CE's existence:

How do you see the Cepheus Engine affecting the Traveller game and brand?

I'm definitely not talking about CE's relative merits as a system; let's assume it's awesome for this conversation.

How does CE/2d6 affect the game and brand of Traveller in its current "live" incarnations ( T5 and Mongoose 2nd ed ), Traveller-branded stuff sold anywhere now and in the future, the livelihood and viability of these Traveller-branded things themselves?

Are dollars spent on CE/2d6 material dollars lost for Traveller ( FFE and Mongoose, at the moment ), or are they a great hedge and investment in Traveller's future?

Do players in the CE system go on to spend dollars on Traveller material, or become Traveller fans and Refs, do you think?

 

[Leitz]

I won't buy MgT 2e but I can see the merit's of the general MgT changes to the system. Solely my opinion but I'd say CE helps FFE because folks who find about about the 443 deals will scarf up supplements for ideas. Not sure CE will help MgT, but not sure I care, either. If MgT wanted to really rock the Traveller world they'd put the supplements in the basics and quit hitting people for $25 a supplement. Yeah, ti might seem like a business loss, but most of the Traveller people who stick with the game can write their own supplements.

T5 and CT are different enough from each other to be different games. CE is pretty different from T5 it seems, so if CT were a stand alone product it might be impacted. With the 443 deals I'm not seeing that as a big risk.

 

[Spenser TR]

I feel like the thoughts about T5/CE are spot on; I can't imagine that fans diving into T5 who find it useful for many different reasons would bleed Imperial Credits to CE, though that might work the other way around, possibly.

I also can't see hardcore CE fans shy away from purchasing T5 because they "have a system that works." I feel like if you were inclined at all to buy T5 post-Kickstarter and you've done any research at all, you know what you're buying.

About the Mongoose 2nd ed material... I feel like there's direct and serious competition for dollars with the CE fans. I think that Mongoose's current biz model might be making cash in the short term appealing to a certain niche, but is probably leaving serious money on the table with people who don't care to spend $25 a crack, or $10 a crack for the supplements just because it's an approachable live system, with so much alternative support material is out there.

How CE affects Traveller in general, ongoing... not so sure.

 

[Leitz]

OSR D&D games are coming up like wildfire. Pendragon is hot and it's based off the old RuneQuest system. People will spend money for good game stuff, but I'd agree that MgT targets the short term. Like, "why would I buy it at all" short term.

I've read T5, CT, MgT, and some of CE. I'd go with CE and a community of supplements if I didn't prefer the wild profits of CT. That said, I'm not smart enough to be a gear head and if I have to crack a rule book it's -1 XP for me as a DM.

 

[aramis]

Personally, i see it as both an homage and a reaction to Matt's/Mongoose's withdrawl of the TLL. "Can't say «Traveller Compatible« without using the onerous new license? Say «CE Compatible» Instead."

I'm not certain how to handle it for board purposes. Your Archduke asks for your input, Oh Moot Members... see Advisory Question: Cepheus Engine

 

[infojunky]

To be honest I feel it keeps a big chunk of Traveller Viable for new works outside of the 3rd Imperium setting. In that there is a broad base of existing works that are largely compatible, notably CT, MT and MgT.

One of the strengths of CE is that there is room for multiple solutions for problems different groups find with core systems.

 

[kilemall]

People who buy into CE aren't' going to buy whole hog into a lot of T5 or MgT products, so it's not a loss fiscally.

The control aspect especially of the MgT license will probably not set well with some content creators, CE keeps them creating, so that's a plus.

The only issue is to keep something in print and at the local hobby shop, so it's visible and a viable line for the main meeting place and watering hole of RPGers.

MgT presently fills that role. If something happens and there aren't a whole commitment to T5 heavily deploying, CE may be the salvation of keeping the game going.

 

[mike wightman]

A couple of things spring to mind.

I cry a little every time someone revues it and says it is based on CT, it is not. It is the MgT srd.

There are quite a lot of 'my own favorite houserules' in it which I disagree with (but I can edit them away and put in my own so I like it).

CE is not OSR CT, but it could be re-written to be...

 

[infojunky]

I cry a little every time someone revues it and says it is based on CT, it is not. It is the MgT srd.

Yes and No. CE is based on Mongoose's SRD, yes. Which has heavy CT influences on it's own. Mr. Kemp took that document and went back to CT as he was rewriting it into it's current form. While it can't be based on CT as CT doesn't have it's own SRD, it is heavily influenced by CT.

There are quite a lot of 'my own favorite houserules' in it which I disagree with (but I can edit them away and put in my own so I like it).

Mr. Kemp is very clear that CE as it stands is his take on the topic, but his intent is to give a baseline doc that anyone can work from. He is firmly in the Every Traveller game is different camp, and wants to see what other people do with it.

A lot of ways CE reminds me a lot of all the Keith Brothers work for CT. In that they made room for their own vision of the game. CE is a space to do just that.

 

[mike wightman]

It has MGT bloated skill list - for CT compatibility it could have been slimmed down
It has MGT task system - for CT compatibility it could have been simplified

I don't see CT when I look at CE, I see MgT1e

Just better add I think Jason has done a fantastic job and service to the community by putting this out there.

 

[infojunky]

It has MGT bloated skill list - for CT compatibility it could have been slimmed down
It has MGT task system - for CT compatibility it could have been simplified

That really depends on which end of CT you look at.

I am willing to argue/discuss this point in depth, just I don't think that is quite the prevue of this Topic.

I don't see CT when I look at CE, I see MgT1e

Not going to say you are wrong, my point is both pay strong tribute to CT. And Weirdly MT, but that only shows up when you go back a look at the pre MT works of DGP.

Just better add I think Jason has done a fantastic job and service to the community by putting this out there.

See there is a point we can agree on....

 

[rhialto]

I likewise see CE as a reaction to the MgT 2e licensing decision, and while it isn't CT it isn't MgT 1e either: somewhere in between. I'm unsure if stripping out the MgT 1e stuff will be more work than just houseruling CT, but we'll see how far I get.

And since I'm going to try and "CT-ify" CE, which I can legally do now, I see it as a great service, and good for Traveller. Which is more than I would say for any other currently published version.

 

[Spenser TR]

My thread starting question was in essence “how does CE affect Traveller?”

I'm trying to parse out things like - why CE developed, how good it is, how great the idea of open source is, how much respect we have for CE plankowners and contributors - things like that from my own thinking, unless any of those things directly bears on a ( mostly financial ) effect on Traveller, which probably means an effect for current licensees.

People who buy into CE aren't' going to buy whole hog into a lot of T5 or MgT products, so it's not a loss fiscally.

I strongly agree. I wonder how it affects purchase of FFE Traveller material of any stripe, or T5 going forward.

The control aspect especially of the MgT license will probably not set well with some content creators, CE keeps them creating, so that's a plus.

This is particularly interesting to me, and maybe strikes at the heart of all this. If you want to create “for Traveller” ( but never say it that way out loud ) CE is now seen by many as the only realistic option. How does -this- affect the Traveller brand, going forward? There doesn’t seem to be a satisfying cadence/trend to T5 at present and people voice numerous reasons for rejection of MgT2e. Traveller content that’s widely acceptable isn’t being created; CE content is. I wonder if this is a positive for Traveller.

The only issue is to keep something in print and at the local hobby shop, so it's visible and a viable line for the main meeting place and watering hole of RPGers.

MgT presently fills that role. If something happens and there aren't a whole commitment to T5 heavily deploying, CE may be the salvation of keeping the game going.

I don’t see how this follows, how CE would be Traveller’s salvation. It doesn’t follow for me how CE continuing to have content published, continuing to be refined is positive for Traveller. Do you think the same people who do this work for CE would help some flavor of Traveller survive in a business sense? Does CE’s increasing player base help dollars/pounds/whatever flow to current Traveller licensees?

…And since I'm going to try and "CT-ify" CE, which I can legally do now, I see it as a great service, and good for Traveller.

In the same vein as above, what makes this true? I’m not in any way disputing the statement here, just trying to understand why it’s good for Traveller as a brand.

 

[creativehum]

And since I'm going to try and "CT-ify" CE, which I can legally do now, I see it as a great service, and good for Traveller. Which is more than I would say for any other currently published version.

CE is not OSR CT, but it could be re-written to be...

Could you guys talk more about this? (Maybe on this thread, maybe on a new thread?)

When I look at CE I see all the MgT, and yeah, it uses 2D6, but that's not enough to make it CT.

So, three questions:

1. How would you approach turning CE into an OSR CT?
2. Is it possible to use the CE SRD to accomplish an OSR CT and have something one could publish?
3. Where are the boundaries on 2? At what is one no longer in CE but instead infringing on CT?

Thanks!

 

[rhialto]

Could you guys talk more about this? (Maybe on this thread, maybe on a new thread?)

When I look at CE I see all the MgT, and yeah, it uses 2D6, but that's not enough to make it CT.

So, three questions:

1. How would you approach turning CE into an OSR CT?
2. Is it possible to use the CE SRD to accomplish an OSR CT and have something one could publish?
3. Where are the boundaries on 2? At what is one no longer in CE but instead infringing on CT?

Thanks!

My quick response here, but happy to spawn a new thread, too. The basic approach I plan to take, which is mostly CT in ethos/approach, not an attempt to recreate CT whole-cloth:

1. Strip out all the embellishments from MgT (homeworld background skills, cascade skills in general, pare down the skill lists closer to LBB1 & S4, replace static ablative armor with the weapons vs. armor mods, and other things I haven't considered yet). I'd also add in my house rules.
2. Yes, this could be published, as CE is almost entirely Open Content; but I don't intend to.
3. This is a good point, and one I don't have a ready answer for: but, it depends on how far towards CT one goes, really.

As I said earlier, I'm not sure this work is worthwhile: it may be easier to just continue to house-rule CT as I have been and be done with it. But CE appears to be an avenue to legally write and publish "MPCT" (or the fantasy version I toy with off and on).

 

[atpollard]

In the same vein as above, what makes this true? I’m not in any way disputing the statement here, just trying to understand why it’s good for Traveller as a brand.

I like Classic Traveller. A LOT of people like Classic Traveller. If I wanted to create something for Classic Traveller, I previously had only one choice ... the FFE Fair Use Policy that allowed me to create and distribute non-commercial products. If the product that I wanted to create required more effort or expense (as an investment) than could be justified by a free product, then the product was dead before it was born. Now I have a new option. I can file off the Traveller IP serial numbers from the product and sell it under CE.

Is Traveller better or worse off now that products that could not exist, but are compatible with existing Traveller rules and of potential interest to Traveller players, can now exist? I think Traveller and Traveller players are better off.

CT, MT, TNE, T4, T20 ... all of the versions except T5 and MGT2e now have the potential for support that they previously did not. That makes 'CE Compatible' good for the Traveller Brand.
(IMHO)

 

[Spenser TR]

Is Traveller better or worse off now that products that could not exist, but are compatible with existing Traveller rules and of potential interest to Traveller players, can now exist? I think Traveller and Traveller players are better off.

This makes sense. Not that all that's been said before didn't, but for me this is persuasive. I still can conceive of circumstances where it'd feel like CE is bleeding dollars from Traveller, but now I can understand how the brand could benefit.

Not that it is, but how it could. Thank you, for this insight.

 

[dmccoy1693]

I think that Mongoose ... is probably leaving serious money on the table with people who don't care to spend $25 a crack

MGT 2e is already a Platinum seller and its only been out a year. That has nothing to do with its price tag, but the number of (non-free) units sold.

CE is a solid system and if I had my own setting, I would have converted it to CE (or just used the 1e MGT SRD and made my own game). But since I am publishing for the OTU, I really only had one option. To say I am not thrilled with it is understating it. But I like the OTU too much to go another route.

 

[Spenser TR]

I don't have any current skin in ^this^ particular game, but I have to say that as someone who writes supplements like some people paint on Sundays, I am also not thrilled with the current situation. : /

I empathize, I understand as much as anyone they whys and hows the current situation came to be, I think. I definitely wish CE success and would not want to detract from anyone affiliated with that opus from building their brand... where it seems to touch a raw nerve with me here is if this prosperity is at the detriment of the Traveller brand.

And more of my own experience at the day job - a company can make a hundred dollars a day ( making this number up, of course ) and celebrate... but if they could be making a thousand dollars a day, if they're leaving money on the table, hemorrhaging it for some reason, not capitalizing the market in a fairly obvious way, blah blah blah... the "hundred dollars a day!" thing isn't a celebration; it's a loss.

 

[Leitz]

It was just a happenstance conversation with Frank Chadwick several years ago that let me know Traveller was still around. I had moved a lot and not seen anything in the game stores.

How would CE becoming more active *not* bring Marc more money since the 443 deals provide a lot of supplements CE doesn't yet have?