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Character generation questions/suggestions

Straybow

SOC-14 1K
Bored on a rainy day, so I decide to break out the T5 pdf and fiddle a bit.

I got the Homeworld result VHiTech, Starport A and consulted the applicable table. For some reason, the most likely results were not HiPop worlds with tens of billions of citizens (2,3,9,12 = 8 of 36), but LoPop worlds with thousands of citizens (6-8 = 16 of 36).

Second, homeworld skills depend entirely on trade classifications. I can see how the available skills will skew toward trade classifications. But why does a Na Ind Ast HiPop Va world get 5 skills while a Ri world 1 skill independent of character's Edu score? Or for that matter, Soc score?

A character with low Soc would likely be from an impoverished background and have few opportunities to learn technical skills, regardless of world or Edu. A character of low Edu would likely have few viable skills regardless of homeworld or Soc.

Moving on, I plan an academic course for the character, which I will relate as narrative:
Ritun (AC8CB7) comes from an Ag Ni Ri world with Research, Medical, and Grav Craft homeworld skills (respectively). With one level of Medical and outstanding Int and Edu perhaps a Medical career would be good. Ritun matriculates to Uni successfully.
At this point I notice that neither his 11 Edu (ie, experience and very high aptitude for study and testing, since he has not yet achieved a Doctorate) nor his modest skill of Research is of any benefit to Perseverence or Honors.

Edu 11 (upper 4-8% of population) does save him 1 year off the normal study time, but so would a mere Edu 8 (stats of 5-9 are all within 1 std deviation of the median, so should have no benefit or penalty). I also notice that no Academic skills (teaching and research) are available at Uni.

Furthermore, the player has a choice of taking skills from the declared major or rolling from the table, rather than requiring a specific set of skills related to degree and major.

Lastly, University attendance accumulates skills at a slower rate than frequently encountered during a career (which often grants extra skills for commission and promotion). University is a period of life most dedicated to training, whereas career often involves mindlessly repeating the same tasks rather than learning new skills.
Ritun graduates in 3 years with Honors. He has learned skill levels in Biology, Chemistry, and Medical (now Med-2). He applies successfully to Med school.
Now in Med school the intensive learning environment that should be applicable to University kicks in. For each year the student gains one level in Medical plus a roll on the table (3 of 6 results are Medical).

Once again, Edu, Int, Honors, and skill in Research or Medical give no bonus to application or perseverence. Of those, only Int applies to the roll for Honors. This time Ritun fails his Perseverence roll.
During his third year Ritun receives failing marks in a required course. In desperation the young man calls upon what few resources he has to get a waiver, and avoids expulsion. A professor from his undergraduate school puts in a good word with a friend in the provost's office, and Ritun is able to repeat the course with another instructor.
Here the process is unclear: does the player have to roll again to persevere after getting a waiver? Normally for failed perseverence the character accrues 1-3 years worth of experience. For Med school 2-4 years remain; perhaps it is assumed the close call staves off habits that interfered with perseverence before.
Despite his close call, Ritun graduates with honors and 2x Med, Physics, Biology, and JoT in addition to the rigorous 5 levels of Med skill.

So Doctor Lishun Ritun, age 26, Med-9, embarks on his soon-to-be-illustrious service career. He seeks a position with a Merchant company. Despite his obvious qualifications he is soundly rejected.
I rolled a twelve. This means Ritun must submit either to the Draft or the random assignment. I choose the random (2D) assignment and roll a two.

Aarghh! It means that this dedicated, skilled man suddenly decides to chuck it all and live a life of fraud, posing as a Noble at the risk of prison (or perhaps worse)? What the heck? No, this is entirely unreasonable.

I propose an alternative allowing Noble service for those with Soc below 11. Noble service surely must include advisors, confidants, even huscarles, butlers, and lowlier types of servants. Another possibility is serving a landed Noble in his/her fiefdom rather than in direct service of the Imperium.

The fortunes of the citizen in service to a Noble rise and fall with his Patron, Knighthood and Elevation are applied to the Patron Noble. Or in the case of serving in a Noble fiefdom the Patron is mustered out and his/her career is already fixed. Following this line of reasoning, the character isn't forced to be a criminal.
Ritun has been blackballed by the sector's biggest merchant line and therefore unlikely to find employment with any competitors on the main trade routes. His dreams of wealth and adventure dashed, he finds himself drawn to the glitter of the downport strip.

There his luck reversed again. He happens upon a college acquaintence, dimly remembered from a sophomore biology lab. They share drinks and a few rounds at the gambling tables. Ritun hadn't known the man was the 4th son of a minor Imperial Noble. The "grapevine" says the personal physician of a Baron in the sector has just retired, and the post is vacant. The friend writes a quick letter of introduction, and then begs leave to make his ship for a distant port.

Ritun finds a ship heading to the Baron's homeworld, and with the introduction secured he gets a personal interview with the Baron. It isn't quite what Ritun expected. He's the only doctor for 100km in a rural province, service provided free to the citizens under the Baron's noblesse oblige.

The Baron has a residence near the capital city of the continent, and twice a year Ritun travels there for the Baron's physical and to submit a budget. The Baron only travels to the province during hunting season, but convivially invites Ritun to join him.

Ritun finds himself scrambling for supplies, even resorting to petty bribery to get second-hand scanning equipment from the state hospital in the capital. Many towns and ranches are accessible only by grav craft. He learns to pilot the cutter they use for evacuating serious trauma patients.

After nearly ten years the pace begins to tell on his health. Ritun finally succeeds in establishing a medical residency program in cooperation with the state hospital. With part of his burden eased, he spends some time getting back in shape.

The fencing instructor Ritun met when he first came into the Baron's service retires to the province and agrees to tutor Ritun again to alleviate boredom. After a few years the Baron suggests Ritun retire, and even gives him a small condominium in the capital city as a reward for faithful services. Ritun has investments valued at 210k accumulated over the years.
T5 is based on a task system, so why isn't the task system used in generation? Application for Service should be a Difficult task based on various Service-related stats plus homeworld and educational skill levels. Perseverence should be a Formidable or Staggering task based on relevant stats. Apply bonuses or penalties based on secondary stats or skills.

I notice that only Medical school has the possibility of building up a formidible expertise. University should include 2 levels in one career specific skill for those who persevere.

Skill rolls spread out so widely that even concentrating all rolls on one table is unlikely to help. 10 of 16 rolls were taken on the Career table, giving 6 skills at level 1 and 2 skills at level 2.

Of course, a Medical career should include some possibility of continuing growth in that field, but only a few services make that remotely possible. The same problem occurs to a lesser degree in any other field. An engineer can hardly specialize in one branch, instead getting a smattering of levels in gravitics, screens, gunnery, electronics, etc.

What is needed is some way to track mission specialization and relate skills to it. At the minimum there should be an option to allow at least one skill slot for each term be applied to any existing skill of the players choice.

More than likely, the majority of skills for each term of service should be applied to the mission, and only one or two allocated to an auxiliary field or personal development.
 
I'll address some of my answers:
mid-low pop worlds: Most High-pop worlds will probably have some chance of restarting fresh within; you can escape your social circle. Low pop worlds, however, are ones where you either mainstream, or live with your choices; starting fresh requires leaving. Likewise, High-pop worlds are more likely to have serious draws locally, and reduce the need to find outside excitement. (It's amazing how many backwater hicks, no offense intended, that I met in basic training...)

I noticed the same problem with Uni in T5; doubling UNI attendance, but disallowing LP's, could help with that.


Being drafted into the noble career makes about as much sense as being elected king, but it's happened in the past. I'd have said a distant relative died without issue, and the PC was the named heir...
 
Well, The Draft doesn't include Noble. Only the Random Career roll includes Noble Service, and it seems to me that T5 has forgotten that Nobles need servants and aides of many varied types, and they will perforce be entirely separate from IN, IM, etc.
 
Sorry I've only now seen this thread.

First, WOW!!! A playtest posted!!

Next, the waiver. It negates a dice roll. The bad roll "never happened", and another favor is called in.

I think Aramis' option is more likely -- that Rutin would be promoted to SOC A, untitled nobility, at his point of entry. However, your solution works fine, too.

As far as managing skills, Ritun is probably already a Certified doctor (Skill + Characteristic >= 18, right?), so he's a Noble Doctor. But he can also declare an Aspiring Life Pursuit, which he can invest skill levels into.

An adjustment is in the works for T5 chargen (errata already!) that allows term skills to be applied to a character's Aspiring Life Pursuit. (Also, the ALP can be changed each term, so theoretically he can gain 4+ levels in a different skill each term.

And of course, post-career, the character gains 1 skill level per year, plus 1 skill level when he "consults the aging table". These levels are granted to skills that have been used recently.
 
I've read through Straybow's playtest.

Very interesting.

I can only say it would seem that a lot of further playtesting seems in order . . .

Ok, I'm heading off to the T5 Forum, we'll see what's being said over there.
 
I've asked the following of robject privately but thought I'd post it publicly.

The Rogue career has a table titled "Plus and Minus". It appears to be some kind of mustering out table (using 2d6) but the career also has a Muster Out table. So..what is the P&M table for and under what circumstances is it used?

There's some rather cool stuff in it.
 
Ah, another learned response!
And of course, post-career, the character gains 1 skill level per year, plus 1 skill level when he "consults the aging table". These levels are granted to skills that have been used recently.
Ah, I didn't see that. What about aging rolls during career, do they also qualify the character for a skill level?
 
Ah, I didn't see that. What about aging rolls during career, do they also qualify the character for a skill level?
Yeah, but they are already accounted for by the CG process! ;)
 
Originally posted by Aramis:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Ah, I didn't see that. What about aging rolls during career, do they also qualify the character for a skill level?
Yeah, but they are already accounted for by the CG process! ;) </font>[/QUOTE]In other words, the character always gains (on the average) about 5 skill levels per 4 years. During chargen, they're gained via the chargen process. After chargen, they're gained via the experience rules (whence cometh the '1 skill per year, plus one skill when consulting the aging table').
 
Originally posted by robject:
In other words, the character always gains (on the average) about 5 skill levels per 4 years. During chargen, they're gained via the chargen process. After chargen, they're gained via the experience rules (whence cometh the '1 skill per year, plus one skill when consulting the aging table').
That is an extreame change from Classic(regular or books 4-7) or megatravellers skill numbers.
In classic, you were lucky to get two skills per term.

Has anyone created a character creation program to determine the odds and ratios of each skill group?

best regards

Dalton
 
Originally posted by Dalton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by robject:
In other words, the character always gains (on the average) about 5 skill levels per 4 years. During chargen, they're gained via the chargen process. After chargen, they're gained via the experience rules (whence cometh the '1 skill per year, plus one skill when consulting the aging table').
That is an extreame change from Classic(regular or books 4-7) or megatravellers skill numbers.
In classic, you were lucky to get two skills per term.

Has anyone created a character creation program to determine the odds and ratios of each skill group?

best regards

Dalton
</font>[/QUOTE]It is very different from skill acquisition in CT, where skills are more powerful. MT gathered all the skills from scattered CT sources, and also granted more skill levels per term to characters. T5 inherits from T4, which uses a different task system, and that's the key, I think.

The task system shapes the rules, and rules take advantage of the features of the task system. So when I think of RuneQuest I understand that the rules rely upon the properties of percentile dice to work with the game mechanics. I see the same kind of thing in T5. And there are two useful side-effects of this:

The T5 chargen system is designed so that characters get a little jolt of skill levels for the first three or four terms -- on the average (including pre-career skills) from 6 to 8 skill levels per term -- then acquisition levels out. The results: (1) characters get the most out of their careers earlier, so they can adventure in their prime, and (2) for characters in their mid-30's and above, skill levels approximates their age, making quick-character generation a snap.

There's another, more extreme (but less intrusive) change: Life Pursuits allows the player to select an area of expertise for the character, turning the standard dozen careers into a matrix of careers plus specializations. For example, a Naval character with a Life Pursuit of Medic becomes a Navy Doctor. So old "careers" which were simply dressed-up skill levels (Hunter, Belter, Doctor, Diplomat) become Life Pursuits available to the careers. Instead of, say, 18 career types, you suddenly have 12 x 6 = 72 career types.
 
There's another, more extreme (but less intrusive) change: Life Pursuits allows the player to select an area of expertise for the character, turning the standard dozen careers into a matrix of careers plus specializations. For example, a Naval character with a Life Pursuit of Medic becomes a Navy Doctor. So old "careers" which were simply dressed-up skill levels (Hunter, Belter, Doctor, Diplomat) become Life Pursuits available to the careers. Instead of, say, 18 career types, you suddenly have 12 x 6 = 72 career types.
Yes but, in TNE, there where about 60 or so career types, and CT's books 4/5/6/7 had detail resolution down to the year for lots of background material.
There was really no limit to the number of careers in CT, as more and more kept on being put out in supplements, the journal and by different Ref's.
I did have a ref who ran a pretty good CT game, but he changed the tables of skills to be based upon one of 8 (I think) personality types that he read about in some pysch book. The career and other dm's would modify your roll.
It made some very different characters that made the game more diverse and alot of fun. I wish I still had the skill charts he used.

In MT our gaming group did not like the 'you suceeded/you failed' setup and made the characters roll be modified by attributes but the level of success was modified by the characters skill level.

I was converting our stuff to html but the tables screwed up. I am thinking of getting VMware to run word to put everything in MS word format,but, that will have to wait for a while.

Back to the origional thought, if the number of skills per term have trippled in compary T5 with CT, then, has the value of the skills dropped by a factor of three, or has the total number of skill catagories gone up by a considerable factor?

Traveller was always a 'regular guys with limited skills coping with the universe' type of game. I would be sad if it turned into just another space opera game with everyone an expert in everything.

best regards

Dalton
 
Yeah, Traveller was always intended to be Regular Guys in Space. That's still the intent. And that's the way I like it, too (even though my gaming group prefers exceptional characters).

While the number of skills is a bit leaner than MT, the value of skills dropped greatly in T4, and T5 inherits from that. In T4 and T5, skill levels range from 0 to 15, with a 10 often qualifying as a certification -- a Life Pursuit -- for a character.

I didn't fully explain the concept of T5's Careers and Life Pursuits, but your mention of TNE and CT/MT brings it back to me. T5 contains the number of careers by adding a "Life Pursuits" rule by which you can choose a skill for a character to specialize in, and add term levels to that skill as you like. Thus by having a dozen (or so) actual careers, plus a potential of 50 skills (or so) per career to pick for specialization, the system formally represents over 500 types of characters, while allowing for things like those CT careers that really are just skills.

Formalizing things that way means you can meaningfully label characters by their career and life pursuit, such as:

Naval Doctor
Noble Diplomat
Scout Prospector
Merchant Pilot
Merchant Broker
Merchant Engineer
Marine Gun Combat Expert (?)
Army Demolitions Expert
Rogue Starship Pilot
...

Anyway, T5 is still in draft status, and its chargen section is under modification in slowtime. So I don't know how this may change in the next draft test, if there is one...
 
I can't say I like the T5 CG; I dont' exactly dislike it, either.

I can say that I find the multi-die task system it's tied to to be repugnant. I tried it under T4/T4.1; the rehash of it in the t5 draft is no better, and in some ways worse, than T4.

and setting certifications to practice at levels 10+ is, well, Bogus.
For med school, medical 6+ should be licensure. That represents receipt of the skill each year save one in the 7 year edu path to an MD by modern standards; 1 level is likely to be lost to legal....

For certification to operate vehicles: well, in most cases, relatively LOW levels are required. Basically a minimum. Under MT, really it should be Level 0 for a vehicle operator permit; under T4/T5, level 1. Equivalent to the GURPS 1 point. Air vehicles should require somewhat higher; commercial pilots can be rated in 2 years of dedicated work (say 3 levels of skill for T5), equivalent to MT level 1, or GURPS 4 point level (~200+ hours of intense training; practice counts less, IIRC. See GURPS Special Ops, GURPS Basic).

The nice thing about CT/MT skill levels is that level 0 is capable, level 1 is employable. So swab-jock 0 can be freely granted at no threat to the game... but Swab Jock 1 is a professional mop man. And Swab Jock 3 is the guy with all the haazmat training and knowledge of the squeegee, and proper disposal, too.
 
...It's not there.

The rules aren't set in concrete, but the idea is that certification is given when a character can perform a task right most of the time; it's not yet certain (?) if that means Difficult tasks 99% of the time (stat 18) or Average tasks X% of the time, or what.

Certification is not tied to a skill level. But it does seem that characters have to get up to level 7 or higher to achieve 99% success rates on Difficult tasks, for example. I take that to be certification -- and I could be wrong.

Ron Brown played CT levels in an excellent way: level 1 was for greenies. Once a player completed an average task with that skill, he automagically graduated to level 2. When the player completed an average task under difficult conditions, he was then level 3. From there it got harder: moving from 3 to 4 required a complex feat indeed, under perilous conditions.

Anyhow, you get the drift. With Ron, skill levels *are* certification levels.
 
Originally posted by Aramis:
I can say that I find the multi-die task system it's tied to to be repugnant.
Take a number. This is the biggest hurdle, I think.

Here's what I was told. Toward the end you can see where certification might come in.


The foundation of tasks is Char. The text of the Task chapter points out that Char alone is not enough; Skill is required. But once the threshold is crossed by obtaining a skill, Char is very much an important component.

If three characters (let’s call them Three, Seven, and Eleven) have Char 3, 7, and 11. Each learns a skill, and has Skill-1. This could be Dexterity and Bomb Disposal, or Intelligence and Navigation, etc,

It seems to me natural that Dex-3 and Bomb Disposal-1 is not nearly as good as Dex-11 and Bomb Disposal-1. In fact, I can create a table that tells us the chance of success for a Task (1D, 2D etc) versus Skill + Characteritistic.

In practice, I think that this run of probabilities DEFINES reality in the T5 universe (which means that I need to be careful in the final definitions).

In MT, or CT, we basically have said that skill defines ability. Characteristic (Intelligence, Enduance, etc) is just a modifier. Instead, T5 says that Characteristic is essential to making the task work right. That a Dex-3 character is not nearly as good a pilot as a Dex-11 character. Two guys with the same skill can have widely different ability based on their defining charactistic.

On example I am working on is this…

Athletics-4 and Strength-11 is a wrestler or a football player.

Athletics-4 and Dex-11 is a basketball player.

Athletics-4 and End-11 is a long-distance runner.

Athletics-4 and Int-11 (but Str-4) is a coach.
 
Certification for bomb disposal is entirely different from vertification for Starship Engineering. Most of what you do in the latter is maintenance (by design not a Difficult task). Most of what you do in the former begins at Difficult and goes up from there.
 
That sounds reasonable to me. I don't know if the idea of certification should be for average tasks, difficult tasks, or whether it should depend on the skill. My choice was to make them all Difficult (because of the Bomb Disposal problem, and for the sake of abstraction); therefore, certified Pilots are very good pilots indeed, and Engineers are very good engineers.

Now, having said that, I'd expect assistant drive hands to not be "certified", or perhaps "Certified Average" or whatever. So maybe when I think Certification I'm really thinking about a Chief Engineer position?


The big idea is that, if allowed to ignore or change the old assumptions and mechanics, T5 may be able to describe a fuller game system (without looking tacked-on, I suppose).

The foundation of tasks is Char. That means the characteristics a player rolls for his character provide more than just enlistment and promotion bonuses; they strongly point the character to certain career types (well, certain skill sets, anyway).

From what I hear, the chargen draft is going through some changes.

(1) The career resolution process might change to use tasks.

(2) The career list may change. A possible list:

1 Citizen
2 Scholar
3 Performer
4 Craftsman. also Technician.
5 Scout
6 Merchant
7 Spacer
8 Soldier
9 Agent
10 Rogue
11 Noble
12 Marine
13 Functionary

#1 and #13 are seen as NPC careers.

The idea here is to generalize career types a bit. I'm not sure if I like losing/renaming Navy and Army, but that might be my heavy CT bias leaking in. Also, Craftsman sounds like a "One Skill Career" like Hunting, except I guess a Craftsman is sort of equivalent to Performer in scope.


So you have careers spanning initial discovery to mature civilization:

* exploration/recon (scouts)
* (conquest (soldiers, marines, spacers))
* colonization (citizens)
* exploitation (citizens, scouts)
* infrastructure (spacers, merchants, craftsmen)
* protection (soldiers, marines, spacers)
* management (nobles, functionaries, agents)
* enrichment (performers, craftsmen, scholars)
* the fringe (rogues)
 
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