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Cheapest 100 dton freighter possible

The minimum 20 dton bridge requirement in my copy of CT Bk2 states it is for all ships for 'basic controls, communications equipment, avionics, scanners, detectors, sensors, and other equipment for proper operation of the ship' and my Bk5, 'Every ship requires a bridge for control of the drives and electronics and for navigation'.

I know it's there for the purpose of constraint, tho. A little consideration and I can think of three sensors a basic trader needs - comms, viewer, and a proximeter, none of which would take up any appreciable volume. Slave them, the drives, the computer, and ops to two or three control stations. At a generous two tons per control staton, that's six tons.

Again, I understand that the constraints can be interesting, and the rules work fine. But I can finally say that I won't be going back to Book 2.
 
I know it's there for the purpose of constraint, tho. A little consideration and I can think of three sensors a basic trader needs - comms, viewer, and a proximeter, none of which would take up any appreciable volume. Slave them, the drives, the computer, and ops to two or three control stations. At a generous two tons per control staton, that's six tons.

Again, I understand that the constraints can be interesting, and the rules work fine. But I can finally say that I won't be going back to Book 2.

Book 5 sets similar requirements: bridge space 2% with a minimum of 20 tons for craft 100 tons and over.
 
Book 5 sets similar requirements: bridge space 2% with a minimum of 20 tons for craft 100 tons and over.

Yeah, I won't be going back to Book 5, either :) My point, I suppose, was that Andrew Boulton finally got through my thick skull with respect to bridge sizes (20 tons is much too big for a Beowulf).
 
I know it's there for the purpose of constraint, tho. A little consideration and I can think of three sensors a basic trader needs - comms, viewer, and a proximeter, none of which would take up any appreciable volume. Slave them, the drives, the computer, and ops to two or three control stations. At a generous two tons per control staton, that's six tons.

Again, I understand that the constraints can be interesting, and the rules work fine. But I can finally say that I won't be going back to Book 2.
I think you are underestimating the size that a radar set would need to be to have the range and capabilities that sensors in CT have, add to that that they can scan a full sphere around the ship rather than a cone in front and you have a much more complicated sensor system than you are imagining. Not to mention the fact that the basic bridge can control the targeting sensors and firing of up to 10 hard points worth of weapons.

Perhaps what you need is to have are optional modules - that just so happen to add up to the minimum of 20t?

Basic bridge 10t

Advanced sensor package 5t

Fire control coordination 5t

You get the idea.
 
Yeah, I won't be going back to Book 5, either :) My point, I suppose, was that Andrew Boulton finally got through my thick skull with respect to bridge sizes (20 tons is much too big for a Beowulf).

I had seriously considered back-modding MT into High Guard. The one is just crazy complicated, the other has some silly elements. Wonder if we couldn't merge them for good effect?
 
Isn't the first thing you did with MT ship design system put together a basic controls, avionics and sensor package that was used on most ships?

I did, and amazingly enough on my design sheets I just called it a bridge ;)
 
What version of HGS is everyone using? i have 1.0.5.8,and 1.3 and i dont get a print function, or that longer descriptive under the main profile?
i cant even ctrl+c to copy text???
 
What version of HGS is everyone using? i have 1.0.5.8,and 1.3 and i dont get a print function, or that longer descriptive under the main profile?
i cant even ctrl+c to copy text???

HGS 1.31 is latest. I dropped the print function around 1.2. The longer descriptive text is found in the file menu | Text export. And where are you trying to ctrl-c to copy text?
 
trying to ctrl+c in the ship card, because it doesnt have the print option

No Ctrl-C won't work there (its because the card is coded as a set of labels rather than a single memo). If you want the data on the card, the best option is to export it as either text or USP and simply print it in notepad.
 
When I realized I could make a really nice little far trader/scout for less than 40 MCr, I wonder if it is crazy to be rolling on the material tables when characters muster out, going for the money and just designing your own brand new ship seems to be less risky...
 
When I realized I could make a really nice little far trader/scout for less than 40 MCr, I wonder if it is crazy to be rolling on the material tables when characters muster out, going for the money and just designing your own brand new ship seems to be less risky...


Which career's mustering out tables can give a PC 40MCr? Which career's mustering out tables can give a PC even the down payment on a 40MCr loan even if a bank is stupid enough to loan them that money without collateral, a biz plan, and references?
 
Which career's mustering out tables can give a PC 40MCr? Which career's mustering out tables can give a PC even the down payment on a 40MCr loan even if a bank is stupid enough to loan them that money without collateral, a biz plan, and references?

The thing to keep in the back of your mind is this:

When a player musters out a character using the standard Traveller rules - said character has a chance at a ship. If said character is lucky enough to get five rolls in which they get a "ship" result for their mustering out, said character actually OWNS his ship outright. More often than not, characters usually only have one successful roll for ship ownership, and still owe 40 years worth of loan payments for said ship. None the less, by the rules, said characters have already somehow, managed to scrape together, the down payment requirement for a ship that is worth 37.08 MCr (in Classic Traveller). Each subsequent reciept of a starship ownership, essentially grants the character equity in the ship equal to 10 year's payments, and the characters now only owe 30 years payments left.

So, the original question of Shadowrunner actually makes sense in light of the rules as written. If the characters who can gain a ship as part of their mustering out benefits has "successfully" gotten the bank's permission somehow in the past, it would make as much sense for a GM to specify that for smaller or less costly starships, the bank has already granted permission. In fact? Were I the GM and Shadowrunner were a player in my campaign world, I'd likely accept his question, think about it, and then offer the following solution:

In lieu of a Free Trader type A hull worth 7.56 MCr for the initial down payment ownership receipt, a player such as Shadowrunner could trade that 7.56 MCr for the 4 MCr down payment required for a 100 dton ship worth 20 MCR (if it were possible in the original CT book rules, which I am guessing it is not!), then the original fee of 7.56 was still raised by the character mustering out, and can be allocated towards the 4 MCr for the down payment, and the remaining 3.56 MCr could be used to pre-pay the monthly loan payments of 83,333.33 Cr per month - permitting the owner to try and make a go of it. Why?

Because somehow, said character was able to amass the down payment for a 37.08 MCr ship to begin with. Whether he spends it on a Type A free trader, or something else is immaterial.

Now, if Shadowrunner wanted to purchase a ship worth 20 MCR - then we'd just have to bury that 7.56 MCr equity into the 20 MCr ship instead of a 37.08 MCr ship. I might suggest "Why not treat the extra equity as being payment for the ship - a whole whopping 3.5 years worth of payments towards the original 40 year loan. Alternatively? Why not treat that equity as pre-paid mortgage payments in an escrow account, granting the ship owner an opportunity to try and make a living as a tramp freighter with the smaller ship.

It isn't as if CT offered a LOT of vararity of ships for use as "mustering out benefits". Had someone taken the time to create variant ships - we could have had a 160 dton ship, or perhaps a 125 dton ship, or a 100 dton ship, or what have you, and then had a massive "parking lot's worth" of ships that could be had as mustering out benefits. Instead, the original authors kept it simple, and left the "expansions" to the creative GM's as they saw fit. Myself? I don't see the harm in it to specify that the mustering out benefits up to 7.56 MCr for the initial receipt of the ship benefit- can be used as the character sees fit, providing that all of the money is tied up as part of the ship's assets and not easily sold/borrowed against by the player characters for adventuring purposes.

Somehow, the player character managed to gain the initial 7.56 MCr. That's according to the rules ;)
 
Which career's mustering out tables can give a PC 40MCr?

I almost forgot to answer this question specifically...

In classic Traveller, only a Rank 5 character can gain the +1 bonus to die rolls for mustering out benefits on the benefits table. Assuming that the player is rolling hot dice, he has to roll the following rolls to even get a Rank 5 character:

Merchants:

roll to enlist: 7+

Roll to survive each term: 5+ (3+ if IQ greater than 6)

Roll for initial Commission: 4+

Roll for subsequent Promotions: 10+ (9+ if IQ >8)

Re-enlist each term: 4+


Assuming 4 terms, plus a commissio on the first term, a promotion on the first and subsequent terms ever term, our budding retiree would have 4 rolls on the tables due to surviving 4 terms, plus gain a total of 3 extra benefits for his rank - for a total of 7 rolls.

The odds of that happening aren't too high to begin with! That having been said, such an extraordinary character with 2 rolls on the cash table, and 5 rolls on the benefits table, has a 1 in 6 chance per roll, of getting a 6 for receipt of a ship. The odds of rolling all 5 dice with a result of 6's, is roughly 1 in 6 to the fifth power. Conceivable? Yes. Likely? Highly UN likely.

So, does it happen in the Traveller universe where someone starts off with reciept of a ship (ie ownership papers and a debt for the next 40 years)? Sometimes. Statistically speaking? It is rather low. Any character who can beat those odds, should be creative enough to determine before they retire, whether they want a Type A Free Trader, or perhaps a 100 dton freighter, or perhaps a 160 dton freighter, or what have you.
 
The thing to keep in the back of your mind is this:

When a player musters out a character using the standard Traveller rules - said character has a chance at a ship.

The thing to keep even more firmly in mind is that it's your campaign and you decide what sort of campaign you want to run. If you want to run a campaign where the PCs don't have a ship, you shouldn't allow any dice to tell you otherwise. If you want them to have a fully paid-up ship, you shouldn't allow any dice to tell you otherwise. If you want them to have an old, break-down prone ship with 5 years' worth of much reduced bank payments left, you shouldn't allow the rules to tell you they must have a brand new ship with 40 years of full payments due.

Letting the character generation system dictate what sort of campaign you must run seems to me to be a really, really bad design feature.

In my own campaigns, I simply tell the players that if they roll a ship, they're going to have to reroll and keep rerolling until they get another result (actually, I normally use an appropriate non-six-sided die to reduce the number of rerolls). Then (or more likely before the campaign start so that the players know what's what up front) I decide if they have a ship and under what terms they have it.


Hans
 
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The thing to keep in the back of your mind is this:

When a player musters out a character using the standard Traveller rules - said character has a chance at a ship. If said character is lucky enough to get five rolls in which they get a "ship" result for their mustering out, said character actually OWNS his ship outright.
Does NOT apply to scouts - additional receipts are lost, and the ship is still property of the IISS. Does not apply in all editions, especially TNE.
 
Does NOT apply to scouts - additional receipts are lost, and the ship is still property of the IISS. Does not apply in all editions, especially TNE.

True enough, I should have been more clear. Scouts is a "loaner" when it comes to getting a ship as a benefit. Also, note that I specified Classic Traveller. Each version/edition of Traveller came with its own rules for ships and benefits and mustering out benefits. Heck, even pirates and/or privateers can start out with a 300 dton corsair in CT.

In the end, it depends on the game system involved as far as character generation is concerned, and as Hans notes - it always depends on the GM running their game world as they see fit. When using the rules as written however, MERCHANTS can start with a wholely owned ship, a partially owned ship, or even a spanking new ship that barely has the down payment made on it.

In GURPS TRAVELLER, players have to sacrifice character points in order to own a ship, while in the other versions of the game, it is either similar to CT, or is a variant thereof. I forget how TNE did it, or how T4 did it. I've never owned T20, nor do I recall what was written in the MgT version. I look forward to seeing what was done with T5, but I can wait ;)
 
The thing to keep in the back of your mind is this: When a player musters out a character using the standard Traveller rules - said character has a chance at a ship.


How about keeping in mind that when the player musters out and gets a ship it's not a case of them getting a bank loan? They're getting a ship from their old bosses and they're getting a mortgage, but they didn't apply for a loan. The character is getting a ship due to the work they did during their career and not due to their having a down payment.

The Scouts are loaning an ex-scout a ship because they think he'll be a good detached-duty asset. A pirate is receiving a corsair because the shady outfit who build and repair corsairs and who he's been working for think he'll bring back the loot. A merchant is getting a free trader because the outfit he's been working for think he can make a go of it.

Mortgages come with the last two, but the character got that mortgage through sweat equity and not because he had enough money. A bank will hold the mortgage but the character didn't convince the bank to grant the mortgage. His old bosses handled that part of it.

Somehow rolling up enough cash on the mustering out tables for a down payment isn't the same as getting a ship benefit.
 
Ship Options

Without a Ship, PC's can't Travel....

Fascinating thread; Have not done anything in the Traveler universe in twenty years (or more); Recall discussing the disconect with Marc, is commerce in the Universe scads (Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands?) of little type M subsidized merchants, because even a single (50,000t?) bulk carrier can carry as much as an add on. And this was before we had fully articulated the "Container Revolution." What are the dimensions of a standard shipping container in the Traveller universe (T5?).
 
What about a 100 ton cargo pod that parasitically clamps onto the side of a megafreighter to hitch a ride unnoticed. ;)
 
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