Civilian ranks and ratings - determining precedence in large crews

[Condottiere]

6 Master
5 Purser
4 Boatswain
3 Coxswain
2 Able Seaman
1 Seaman
0 Landsman

 

[kilemall]

6 Master
5 Purser
4 Boatswain
3 Coxswain
2 Able Seaman
1 Seaman
0 Landsman

Shouldn't that be Starman or Able Starman?

 

[Condottiere]

6 Master
5 Purser
4 Boatswain
3 Coxswain
2 Able Spacehand
1 Spacehand
0 Groundsman (Willie)

 

[kilemall]

Got to thinking about all this in the context of my certification/officer reply, and realized there was another way to determine precedence, although more for smaller crews.

By pay, and therefore responsibilities.

So to go in order of the CT payrolls, the precedence would be

Pilot
Navigator
Engineer
Steward
Medic
Gunner

 

[Straybow]

Purser, Boatswain, Coxswain, and Steward aren't ranks, they are roles just like pilot, nav, eng, medic, gunner. A ship might well have multiple stewards, one being senior over the other(s).

 

[Timerover51]

As a Coxswain was typically in charge of a ship's boat, a person with Small Craft Skill could be referred to as a Coxswain, making a distinction with someone who has Pilot-1 skill for starships.

Purser and Steward are pretty close when it comes to actual duties, and could almost be used interchangeably. Pursers tend a little more to the supply and accounting area, while Stewards lean a bit more to actually working with the passengers.

 

[kilemall]

Alright, here is a related question- who qualifies to be 1st/2nd/3rd officer, are they department heads in addition to being in the chain of command, and what pay do they receive?

I would expect the usual 10%+ or so pay rate mentioned for supervisors in the enlisted ranks, but it strikes me that something more would be needed for larger responsibilities then just multiples of the classic pay rates?

 

[Condottiere]

You'll notice these aren't really commissioned positions, at best warrants using Age of Sail terminology, based on seniority.

If I could have found something a bit more definite, I wouldn't have bothered to add in Able to distinguish two ranks.

 

[whulorigan]

Alright, here is a related question- who qualifies to be 1st/2nd/3rd officer, are they department heads in addition to being in the chain of command, and what pay do they receive?

Traditionally, the Shipmaster (Captain), the Master's Mate (Chief/1st Officer), and the 2nd* & 3rd Officers* are all Licensed Officers in the Deck Department. They are positions not ranks. Aside from seniority in the chain of command, each one generally stood a watch as an Officer of the Deck while the ship was underway, while the Captain/Master was a day-shift officer (but always on call, if needed). Additionally, the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Officers also were generally assigned the oversight of particular general ship-wide responsibilities within the deck department.

* - Note that the 2nd Officer is sometime known as the 1st Lieutenant, and the 3rd Officer is sometimes known as the 2nd Lieutenant. A 4th Officer (if any) might be the "3rd Lieutenant", and would be a general "learning officer" or "Assistant 3rd Officer".
​

The Engineering Department had the comparable structure of licensed engineering officers: Chief Engineer, 1st (Asst.) Engineer, 2nd (Asst.) Engineer, 3rd (Asst.) Engineer, with comparable Engineering watch-standing duties, and respective particular oversight of particular engineering-wide responsibilities. For Traveller, those oversight-responsibilities might be Jump Drive, Power Plant/Life Support, and Maneuver Drive, for example.

The above, of course, would be for a larger vessel with a fairly large crew, justifying individual departments and respective overseeing officers. A smaller vessel (such as a Free Trader), would likely combine everything under a single "department", with the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Officers being expected to entirely oversee a particular set of duties (e.g. 1st Officer= Pilot/Nav, 2nd Officer= Engineering, 3rd Officer=SensOps/Commo, 4th Officer= Steward/Medic, etc).

 

[kilemall]

Traditionally, the Shipmaster (Captain), the Master's Mate (Chief/1st Officer), and the 2nd* & 3rd Officers* are all Licensed Officers in the Deck Department. They are positions not ranks. Aside from seniority in the chain of command, each one generally stood a watch as an Officer of the Deck while the ship was underway, while the Captain/Master was a day-shift officer (but always on call, if needed). Additionally, the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Officers also were generally assigned the oversight of particular general ship-wide responsibilities within the deck department.

* - Note that the 2nd Officer is sometime known as the 1st Lieutenant, and the 3rd Officer is sometimes known as the 2nd Lieutenant. A 4th Officer (if any) might be the "3rd Lieutenant", and would be a general "learning officer" or "Assistant 3rd Officer".
​

The Engineering Department had the comparable structure of licensed engineering officers: Chief Engineer, 1st (Asst.) Engineer, 2nd (Asst.) Engineer, 3rd (Asst.) Engineer, with comparable Engineering watch-standing duties, and respective particular oversight of particular engineering-wide responsibilities. For Traveller, those oversight-responsibilities might be Jump Drive, Power Plant/Life Support, and Maneuver Drive, for example).

The above, of course, would be for a larger vessel with a fairly large crew, justifying individual departments and respective overseeing officers. A smaller vessel (such as a Free Trader), would likely combine everything under a single "department", with the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Officers being expected to entirely oversee a particular set of duties (e.g. 1st Officer= Pilot/Nav, 2nd Officer= Engineering, 3rd Officer=SensOps/Commo, 4th Officer= Steward/Medic, etc).

Okay, logical- I'm trying to tie in the merchant ranks in the game to functions on a ship.

So you believe the functional rank/position would still be there on minimal commercial crews, even if they aren't formal supervisors or watch officers?

Each section still gets a Chief Engineer, Chief Steward, Senior Pilot, etc. (separate from the deck officers) who do the actual admin/leadership?


And again, what is the compensation for being a deck officer?

 

[whulorigan]

So you believe the functional rank/position would still be there on minimal commercial crews, even if they aren't formal supervisors or watch officers?

Simply put, there is always the need for a chain of authority, and there are always certain positions that need to be manned. The chain from Captain --> 1st Officer --> 2nd Officer --> 3rd Officer --> 4th Officer will probably be mandated by some future version of maritime law (at least officially on paper) for legal accountability purposes, even if less formally adhered to in practice.

The issue for a "realistic" crew would mean that you need to think in terms of actual watch-standing/watchbills. In other words, you will need to define various "conditions" under which a particular crewing-structure is mandated. "General-Quarters" is the easiest (i.e. EVERYBODY is at stations). But other than that, people cannot be awake and functioning 24/7, so you need to think about who is on duty and needed, and under what circumstances.

For example, when in Jump, you do not need to man Communications, Sensors, Navigation, or Piloting. Engineers will be needed to stand watch around the clock, depending on the degree of automation in the engineering spaces that you envision. And Stewards will need to be available, if not standing watch, during the entire voyage. A single bridge-officer might be required to stand watches on the bridge around the clock to deal with any alarms that might require attention.

While Maneuvering, the ship will require a pilot, and sens-ops and/or commo around the clock on the bridge, and a round the clock engineering watch (again, all of this is subject to the degree of automation). Stewards are still required to be continually available.

In short, any time something needs to be manned 24/7, you need at least enough crew in that position to cover all shifts and allow crew to sleep/rest.

Each section still gets a Chief Engineer, Chief Steward, Senior Pilot, etc. (separate from the deck officers) who do the actual admin/leadership?

For a small ship, each section might be a department of one person who is entirely responsible for that function on the ship, as well as holding a particular level of authority in the chain of command (1st/2nd/3rd Officer, etc).

I wouldn't define anyone as "Chief-" anything until you get three or more in a department. A ship requiring one engineer has the Engineer. One requiring two would have an Engineer and an Asst. Engineer. When you get to three engineers needed you would go to a Chief Engineer, with a 1st & 2nd Asst. Engineer, with the Chief Engineer standing a watch, if necessary.

The point is that when you get to a small ship with a small crew (like a Type-A or Type-R), you will not have the extensive "Department head with assistant officers and underlings" structure, but will rather have one or two people who will fill a position and the rank/watch-standing structure at the same time.

So figure out how many crew you need to run the ship, and then afterward assign Captain and 1st-4th Officer to the crew that you have (and possibly Chief and 1st - 3rd Engineer if the engineering crew is large enough).

And again, what is the compensation for being a deck officer?

Not sure if I have a good answer for this one.

 

[aramis]

Okay, logical- I'm trying to tie in the merchant ranks in the game to functions on a ship.

So you believe the functional rank/position would still be there on minimal commercial crews, even if they aren't formal supervisors or watch officers?

Each section still gets a Chief Engineer, Chief Steward, Senior Pilot, etc. (separate from the deck officers) who do the actual admin/leadership?


And again, what is the compensation for being a deck officer?

Note that fishing vessels almost always have a skipper, a chief engineer, and a deck boss, and sometimes a pilot. And a cook. General line of command: Skipper, Pilot, CEngr, DB. And the Skipper.

And the others are split between Crew and green crew.

 

[Timerover51]

The following is the crew make-up that I developed a few years ago when working on purchasing a retired US Coast Guard tender for recovery and research work on the Great Lakes and elsewhere. Note, this was a serious attempt at purchase, and money was on the table. Therefore, this was not, and still in not, a hypothetical list for crew. This is what I anticipated that I would need for commercial ship operations. it is based on US Coast Guard manning requirements

Captain: on duty 24 hours, does not stand a watch. Distinct from owner aboard.
First Mate: Stands watches, qualified to be Captain.
Second Mate: Meets required standards, needs more sea time for advancement
Third Mate: Meets required standards, needs considerably more time for advancement
Three Helmsmen/Wheelmen: Stand Watches, meet requirements for job with adequate sea time.
Chief Engineer: on duty 24 hours, does not stand watch
Day Engineer: not required by Coast Guard, monitors all shipboard systems outside of engine room daily to include water distillation equipment, bow thruster, ship's boats, and emergency generators.
First Engineer: stands watches, capable of serving as Chief Engineer if needed
Second Engineer: stands watches, meets required standards, needs more sea time
Third Engineer: stands watches, meets required standards, needs considerably more sea time
Bosun: not required by Coast Guard, head of deck force, highly experienced seaman
Winchman: not required by Coast Guard, in charge of handling the 15-ton and maintaining the same
Three Deckhands: do not necessarily stand watches, minimum requirement was a rating of able seaman.
Ship's Cook: aside from feeding crew, responsible for purchase of needed supplies and laying out extended menus.
Assistant Cook: not required by Coast Guard, but required for sustained 24 hour operation.

The vessel was of 729 gross register tons, which would equate to about 146 Traveller dTons. Note, this crew list was worked up after considerable discussions with both the US Coast Guard and a couple of chief engineers and ship's masters. The gentleman I was considering for Chief Engineer would have liked one or two wipers/oilers for the engine room to allow for more maintenance to be done onboard, as the ship had two Diesel-electric power units, a large electric propulsion motor, and ship-service generators. A Purser for heading up the cook crew was also desired and I had a volunteer for that role.

Several sister ships are operated as fishing vessels, with a crew requirement of Captain, First Mate, Chief Engineer, and First Engineer. If operated as a private vessel, the only Coast Guard requirements were a Captain and Chief Engineer.

 

[Condottiere]

How does a single Scout stand three watches?

There may be a threshold of reliability for some machinery, so it can operate unsupervised, unless you mandate virtual crewing.

 

[kilemall]

How does a single Scout stand three watches?

There may be a threshold of reliability for some machinery, so it can operate unsupervised, unless you mandate virtual crewing.

My answer for the scout was always 20 ton bridge = massive automation.

20% of the ship or 10x the normal ratio.

Free Trader or other 200 ton ships is 5x, hence again a 4-5 man crew can work.

 

[whulorigan]

How does a single Scout stand three watches?

There may be a threshold of reliability for some machinery, so it can operate unsupervised, unless you mandate virtual crewing.

My answer for the scout was always 20 ton bridge = massive automation.

20% of the ship or 10x the normal ratio.

Free Trader or other 200 ton ships is 5x, hence again a 4-5 man crew can work.

Agreed. For a small ship to operate on the amount of crew specified per the rules, there must be significant automation technology.

 

[welsh]

Well, why does anyone need to be on the bridge? A ship in space is goig to keep on keeping on without anyone at the controls.

I take it that scouts and private ships like yachts san do this, but that regulations for anyone running paid passenger service require crew members on duty at all times.

 

[whulorigan]

Well, why does anyone need to be on the bridge? A ship in space is goig to keep on keeping on without anyone at the controls.

I take it that scouts and private ships like yachts san do this, but that regulations for anyone running paid passenger service require crew members on duty at all times.

Because even if there is nothing to "encounter" without a long amount of lead-time, someone needs to be there (or at least have telltales shunted to a portable pad-like device or something) to respond to any unexpected alarms or other warning/trouble lights that might pop-up unexpectedly.

To the local SPA: "Sir, how were we supposed to know that the capacitor in the astrionics computer link was overheating and about to catastrophically discharge and send a surge into the astrogational-engineering interface. We couldn't possibly know that we would be unable to maneuver when we hit orbital approach. Its not our fault".

 

[Timerover51]

I run all ships as requiring 3 watches. For a scout, I assume 4 crew onboard, with one a senior scout, Rank 3: Scout Team Leader.

Scout Ranks are as follows:
Rank 1: Apprentice Scout, if survives first term, automatic Survival-1
Rank 2: Scout Pilot, achieves Pilot-1
Rank 3: Scout Team Leader, commander scout ship or a team of scouts operating to survey a planet or solar system
Rank 4: Planetary Scout, capable of commanding a planetary survey team
Rank 5: System Scout, capable of commanding a full solar system survey
Rank 6: Subsector Scout, capable of commanding a large scout base or commanding the scouts of a subsector.

 

[Condottiere]

0 Tenderfoot
1 Cub Scout
2 Adventure Scout
3 Patrol Leader
4 Scout Master
5 Group Scout Master
6 Quadrant Master