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Classes - some thoughts.

Frito

SOC-1
It seems to me that classes work just fine for Traveller. Heck, CT had class books (High Gaurd etc.) and you could even add the careers from Citizens.

What I would suggest is that the skill availibility and class abilities for all classes reflect the wide variety of specilizations found in CT.

If classes are very flexible then there will be little real difference between a T20 class and a CT career.

Cheers
 
I would _start_ with classes similar to these:

Diplomat (social/diplomatic/bluffing skills)
Explorer (survivalist)
Scout (sneak)
Soldier
Technician (lots and lots of skills)
Telepath (or Psion, or whatever)

Then I'd make sure that each career could be fit into one of those classes (some military professions might be Soldier based, but others might be Explorer or Scout based, or even Technician based). For those that defy the basic range of classes, maybe a prestige class or something.

Examples:

A "Civilian Pilot" type career might say: take a level of diplomat or explorer, being sure to pick up X ranks of Astrogation and Y ranks of Piloting. (why diplomat? diplomat might represent the bluffing and price negotiating that a merchant or smuggler has to do)

A "Military Pilot" type career might say: take a level of Scout or Soldier, being sure to pick up X ranks of Astrogation and Y ranks of Piloting.

I would detail "Profession" subskills for each of the various military groups in the setting, as well as various other professional groups. And I'd make sure that appropriate "Knowlege" subskills were given some detail.
 
I think that trying to match CT Careers each directly with its own T20 class is a better way to go. The ability to choose among skills makes it entirely possible to create a Navy Engineer (Navy Class) who's different from a Navy Pilot (Navy class) or a Merchant Engineer (Merchant Class). THe Navy Pilot and Engineer would have similar weapon skills saves etc, but the two engieers woudl have similar Engineering ability.

If you use the Class=Career model, then you can use the CT/MT/T4 character generation model quite easily and when you're done it will "feel" more like Traveller. If you make up new classes, it will feel like a whole new game (which isn't bad, but isn't the point of making a T20 in the first place).

You might want to create prestige classes that people switch into when the game starts: Adventurer, Mercenary and Free Trader seem the most obvious.

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Dave "Dr. Skull" Nelson
 
I agree. I wanted to start up a Traveller game for my group and was trying to choose a system. The two finalists were GURPS and CT. I went with CT because it felt right.

If the classes are the traditional CT careers with wide skill selections or specializations then you can use the new rules (d20) with a classic feel.

It wouls also make the transition to a non-d20 version of Traveller much easier.

I also agree that adventuring characters should be in specific "prestiege" classes that reflect their new status.

Cheers,

Dave
 
I definitely think that the career system and the class system should fit eachother.

But, do you need "Navy" and "Marine" as classes, or just roles/paths within Soldier? Soldier should be broadly defined in a way that includes most military fighting roles (with a few exceptions like spec ops people who might go with Scout or Explorer instead). Non-fighting roles can be handled by a different class, even if both roles are within the military (or even within the same service in the military). The class is the mechanic, the career (military vs merchant) and role (marine vs navy) are role playing descriptions that justify why you took a class level in Soldier vs a class level in Diplomat.

So, I see a set of Career rules that generate role playing description, and suggest to you a few choices in which class levels to take. (it's been way too long since I've looked at actual traveller rules to remember specific career mentions, so I'm being very general in my descriptions) So, the Career system tells you "You enlisted in the Marines", and then suggests to you to take a particular class (or a choice of 2 classes), and then says you should (or have to?) pick up a few ranks of a list of skills.

This keeps the system from having functional redundance. For example, a Cavalier, Fencer, Mercenary, and Thug are all roles that the D&D Fighter class can take. "Cavalier" "Fencing Master" and "Mercenary" are careers which suggest that you should have picked up levels in Fighter. If you're a "Cavalier", I would expect that you had picked up some levels in riding. I wouldn't necessarily have that expectation of a Fencing Master. Cavalier is the career, not the class.

Similarly, a Space Marine, Naval Commando, or Mercenary are all "fighting" roles, so all fit under the general catagory of "Soldier". The skill sets each might pick up would vary, but they can all be generally classified as Soldiers. So, when you enlist in the Navy, you might have been a fighter type (and thus taken a level in Soldier), or you might have been a technician type, or medical type, or science type. None of the last 3 fit under Soldier, so they'd be a different class, but still in the Navy career.

Similarly, a technician might have a military background or a civilian one, which one is really a matter of description and skills chosen, not class. But they both fit under a functional description of Technician or Engineer.

Being a Soldier with technical skills (what "Navy class with engineering skills" implies to me) seems more like an Infantryman who knows how to fix jeeps, as opposed to the jeep pool mechanic (Technician with military background). So I would lean toward a "Navy Engineer" being a Technician or Engineer class who has some military professional skills and feats (weapon and armor prof.) in addition to his technical skills.

(the other side of the coin is, why does a Navy Engineer have the same attack bonus and armor proficiencies and damage capacity as a Navy Commando (like the SEALs)? The guy who fixes the engine certainly has basic weapons familiarity, but he's not going to be as good with them as the commando. Class determins things like that difference.)

But, both are sound philosophies. I think my mindset fits a little bit more with how other d20 games have handled the concept of career vs class, but that doesn't meant it's necessarily better for Traveller.
 
I have never played D20, but from what you are saying Class largely covers those tasks that don't have a specifc skill. Classes should be defined by what you do, not by what uniform you wear.

Merchants and Navy would both be Spacecrew class and pehaps Technicians. Free Trader officers could also be Merchants
A Scout could be Spacecrew or Outoors, or Scientist.
An infantryman would have Soldier and Outdoors, a Marine would have soldier and Space Crew. A mercenary officer would be Soldier and Merchant, a staff officer would be Soldier and Bureaucrat

Spacecrew
Soldier
Outdoorsperson
Vehicle crew
Merchant/business
Technician/Engineer
Medic/Physician
Scientist
Academic/teacher
Bureaucrat
 
D20 is essentially the current D&D3E. The classes there are Fighter, Ranger, Druid, Wizard, etc.

If you use names for the T20 classes which are not readily identifiable then you run the risk of ambiguity or confusion.

If the class list were: Army, Navy, Marine, Scout, etc. then your choices would be clear. Then in the class you could use skill bundles to make your specializations. You could differentiate between a Survey Scout and a Scout Tech.

If you try to lump things together like soldier then you have added a new level of complexity.

Why not stick to the classics so you can draw an audience into the Traveller universe.

Besides you would also be appealing to the old time players like me. I went out and bought the Far Future reprints so I could play the game I loved.

Cheers
 
Bob,


Right, with the following other thoughts:


1) Scout is one of the common other names for the D&D Rogue (sneaky guy). And it's what Star Wars calls 'em.

2) I used "Explorer" for Outdoorsman (could be either ... I even thought of saying Outdoorsman). It's sort of the modern equiv of the D&D Ranger concept: a fighter with some scout skills, just oriented less toward backstabbing and more toward survival (could also call him a Survivalist).

3) I've seen many games where Medics and Scientists were all seen as aspects of "Technician". I'm not sure I agree all of the time, but it sort of works. Some technicians work on jeeps, some on computers, some on bodies. So, that's why I didn't elaborate too much on those groups from my first quick list (but left room for adding others).

4) What does a vehicle crew do? In Star Wars, a military pilot is a soldier or scout or fringer with pilot skills. A tank crewman then might be just a soldier with driving skill and the feat for vehicle weapons. A civilian vehicle crewman might just be a merchant with driving skills? (I'm not sure if I'd make the same argument against the Spacecrew class though ... it's not a simple skill or two and a feat or two to be part of a ships crew, but as you said it might be an aspect of technician too)

5) My mindset for "Diplomat" is anyone who concentrates on social interaction ... formal Diplomats, Merchants (salesmen, managers, etc), Con men, etc. Not sure if that's the _best_ class name or not, but I like it more than the Star Wars class name for it (Noble, whether you actually part of the nobility or not).

Just my thoughts on it.
 
Frito:

d20 isn't just 3D&D anymore. There's Star Wars, Dragon Lords of Melnibone, (a cthulhu one about to come out), and a few others.

I know that Star Wars takes the basic approach to class vs career I've described, and I'm told that DLoM does as well.


As for whether or not it "Classes support the CT careers" vs "Classes _ARE_ the CT careers" ... different isn't bad, you know. What I'm describing allows you to build the same character, it just consolidates what computer people like to call "primitives" (basic atomic entities).

Like I said, both approaches are valid. I think the "Supports the CT Careers" is more d20ish than the "_ARE_ the CT Careers" though.
 
I have played both CT and D20 and thought that CT would be easy to convert to D20 because you could use the character gen system straight from CT all have to do is assign a particular stat to each skill. I hope they don't do a major overhaul and introduce a lot funky crap that loses the classic feel.
 
Kzin,

Vehicle Crew operate as part of a team and operate and maintain a piece of complex appertatus. This could be a sailing ship, submarine, airliner, container ship, tank, bomber, grav lorry, etc, depending on the skills that go with it.
Fighter pilots doen't exactly fit, since they seldom repair and maintain their own vehicles. "Soldier" with pilot skills is ok. Actually, a "bomber" crew would me muli-classed. Vehicle Crew for operating the vehicle, Solder for weapons.
 
Originally posted by kzin:

I definitely think that the career system and the class system should fit eachother.

But, do you need "Navy" and "Marine" as classes, or just roles/paths within Soldier?

I think having each career be a separate class is the way to go, but you could (I suppose) have a "Soldier" class and different Class Skills lists for Army, Navy, Marines, etc; that way, the base attack bonus, saves, etc. could be the same, but the details such as skills and feats might be different. Merchants, Scouts, Rogues etc, should have their own classes though.

Allen
 
There is a difference between the Army, Navy, and Marine classes, but only when they are correctly described. In Traveller, 'Army' is the equivalent to our modern Army, Air Force, and Marines. The 'Navy' is describing the Space Navy (vs. the planet-based naval forces, or Wet Navy.) The Marine class is essentially the fighting side of the Space Navy. Albeit a minor difference between them and the Army, it's the same that exists today (and just TRY and call me an 'Army guy', and I'll show you why they call us 'Devil Dogs'.)
The majority of attention in CT tends to gravitate towards the Military side of life, with cursory work on the Civilian sector. I would see this changed to allow people a chance to have a decent character that got his training without carrying a sidearm.


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Check out www.animeFEST.com
 
I agree that the classes should be based upon the CT/Supp4/MT careers.

As for Marines vs Army: Obviously, cutlass and vacc-suit should have been included, rather than just cutlass. And since each career in CT has access to about 3/5 the skill list, that sound about like the number of class skills to me.

I do want to see the various citizens careers included as classes. (As in, for the military Army separate from sailer separate from flyer), perhaps with the officer ranks being prestige classes...

Also, please add the non-overlapping one from MT: Law Enforcer.

And of couse, for other, expand it a little: pick any 10 skills as class skills (D&D Expert).

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-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
 
I have just posted some very basic information about the current core classes being developed and playtested.

Just following the Core Classes link at the Official T20 Website.

Hunter
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hunter:
I have just posted some very basic information about the current core classes being developed and playtested.
Hunter
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bleah! There are not only not enough, they're WAY too broad.

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-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aramis:
Bleah! There are not only not enough, they're WAY too broad.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what core classes are supposed to be, fairly broad archetypes that can be customized by skill development and feat selection.

Navy, Army, Scout, Merchant, Marines do not make for good classes in an adventuring setting. They are services or professions where the character is under the fairly heavy control of a higher authority. Merchants in this context are referring to those working for one of the corporate lines.

Where they do come in to play is in Prior Service. That is what you did before you got out and are now an active member of a campaign.

With the classes that have been established you CAN have the Academic who was also a Marine. Of course, he worked in the Headquarters division pushing paperwork but he WAS a Marine!

By the same token you have create the Rogue working as an independent captain. Is she a bar brawling but fairly law-abiding trader, or a cowardly and conniving smuggler.

Prestige classes will also be available for much more specialization.

Hunter
 
OK, now I see the direction you're headed. The classes will be VERY general. For a more narrow focus or "specialization" you work toward a particular prestige class. That makes sense. You might consider changing the name of the mercenary to something a little more general like soldier, warrior, etc. The term mercenary conjures a more specific image to me than what I think you're portraying with this class. I like the general classes overall though.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phil:
OK, now I see the direction you're headed. The classes will be VERY general. For a more narrow focus or "specialization" you work toward a particular prestige class. That makes sense. You might consider changing the name of the mercenary to something a little more general like soldier, warrior, etc. The term mercenary conjures a more specific image to me than what I think you're portraying with this class. I like the general classes overall though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah Mercenary is not a good term for that class but warrior and soldier are not quite right either. The other class names I think evoke what they are meant to invoke.

The idea is to allow the player to define what their character is rather than have a class rigidly define it for them. The core classes are merely meant to act as a basic framework to build upon.

Mercenaries fight and survive, Rogues like to get into excitings situations (and mischief) which often entails fighting, Travellers travel (with all THAT entails), Professionals do their jobs, and Academics know it all...

The specifics are left for the player to decide and develop.

Hunter

[This message has been edited by hunter (edited 29 May 2001).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hunter:
That's what core classes are supposed to be, fairly broad archetypes that can be customized by skill development and feat selection.
[snip]
Prestige classes will also be available for much more specialization.

Hunter
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even under that rationale (which I felt wass obvious from the classes), I still feel too few and too broad. There should at least be Crewman and GP (Ground pounder, aka GroPo), instead of Mercenary. The Traveller class I feel should be split between crewman and Socialite... But that's just an opinion. Your classes however, are still too few for a core by comparison to the two other d20 engine games.




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-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
 
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