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Cleon Class Battlerider

All it takes is one duchy navy or TL15 planetary navy to figure out the truth and it will spread from there.
....
If it's building battleships it's because it believes that battleships are a better use of its budget than heavy cruisers and battleriders.

One should so hope. When you call the IN "it," you highlight the issue. It. The IN: A single entity, with a unitary, rational decision-making mechanism, untrammeled by human failings. Ah, utopia...

Smaller bureaucracies, without the inherent enmeshment of rank, nobility, and decision-making have made far greater mistakes. Usually as a result of human frailty, but often mired by other uncertainties as well.

Egos get very close to positions. Careers get built around these positions, and factions support their members. Positions become political. Venality, jealousy, and stupidity all play their part. Emotion is cloaked as reason.

Weapons, as well, have emotional and psychological effects, in addition to physical effects. You are planning on enough admirals, the right admirals, being convinced on a visceral, emotional level of the wisdom of jumping blind into a system, and separating their flagship from its jump drives. The bayonet is a prime example: physically, it should be irrelevant. Early studies were done to determine how many bayonet wounds there were in the US experiences in WWI, when they were ubiquitous in dispersal and training: very few.

This was, of course, and very rational, empirical study. It ignored the fact that the bayonet's effect, by the 20th century, was primarily psychological. One's body was typically not overcome by the bayonet; one's mind, specifically the inner, reptilian portion of the mind, whence comes fear and aggression, among other emotions, overcomes both both the rational and the automatic conditioned responses of training, and one flees in terror. That a single company could, in the latter 20th century, attack an identically armed company across open ground in a bayonet charge defies the physical. Each defending soldier shoots one, the charge is over. Empirically irrefutable; rational. Each defending soldier sees the bayonet, moving from a distance, tangibly towards his innards, and he drops his kit and runs.

That 20 should repeat the task against 100 in cover, over 180 meters of open ground in daylight in 2004 makes the point.

So the admirals, brave and wise to the last, have no inner qualms about abandoning their means of escape to some vague uncertainties. It's not enough, in a large bureaucracy, or system of bureaucracy, that the truth be there. It almost always is in the case of great, protracted, and expensive folly. It has to have champions, who are politically powerful enough, and competent enough to turn the tide of opinion. Often this occurs. In a free market, it happens more freely. In the case of doctrine and military theory, it often takes at least a very bloody defeat to change minds; even then, then wrong lessons can still be drawn. DeGaul had the right answer. France had the better tanks, and more of them. DeGaul did not have the juice to convince the others.

Tank destroyer doctrine was not accepted by the majority of the U.S. Army, but Leslie McNair still was influential enough to delay Ike's request for the M-26's to be produced for Normandy. Enough Zippos caused the Army to abandon the tank destroyer for what we today call the MBT. The M-26 was the MBT of 1944, notably absent. There were rational arguments in favor of the Tank Destroyer. I'm sure we could set up a computer simulation where they would win; I'm sure we could similarly set up one to have the opposite result.

That the truth will spread, just because it is true, flies in the face of human experience. Recognizing the truth is not universal, because often the right answer depends, at the very least, on knowing the right question.

Could BR's be decisively more effective in one measure and not be adopted because of the imperfect, indeed possibly incompetent, nature of bureaucratic decision-making for periods in excess of a century, where no overwhelming capital engagements made the truth inescapeable? I would say yes. Reasonable minds could differ. I do not differ, because I lack a reasonable mind.;)
 
It's a level of abstraction you have to accept if you choose to use those rules. You can always use FF&S to build these ships and use Battle Rider to fight out the engagement. In point of fact as you move from HG2 to the different ship combat systems the outcomes of engagements differ due to the rules used to model them.

And the stark truth is that the rules dictate doctrine.

Now, in games, we tend to have a very small world view being modeled.

High Guard modeled not simply combat, but maneuver. This reality will have a large impact on fleet design.

You can argue that FF&S "sticks to physics" for its modeling, doctrine be damned.

However, it does associate economic costs to those physical components. So, now it's not just "what gun is best", but "bang/buck".

While the physics parts are modeled after the Rules of the Universe, the economics are basically pure handwavery.

And none of those address any part of the political aspects of doctrine. One can argue what distinguishes a Soviet MBT and an American MBT, but there's more to winning a war in Europe than who has the best MBT.

For example, how does the Zhodani Psi capabilities influence it's fleet design? If the rules don't account for it, then, technically, they don't influence it at all.

But looking at the rules, one can see how doctrine may not change much until the introduction of the Meson Gun which basically eliminates a Heavy Armor design. Pity the aged ship without a meson screen.

In the end, the rules will dictate design. If the Canon doesn't match the rules, the rules are arguably incomplete.

But, making a (just making this up) Carrier with fighters that ends up continually being shredded by simpler, cheaper units because Carriers and fighters are "cool". Doesn't make a lot of sense.

"Why do you keep bringing fighters and a carrier and losing?" "Because they're really cool and fun!"
 
One should so hope. When you call the IN "it," you highlight the issue. It. The IN: A single entity, with a unitary, rational decision-making mechanism, untrammeled by human failings. Ah, utopia...
It depends on the magnitude of the advantage conferred by battleriders over battleships and on the time the new technology has to percolate through the Imperium. Four times as effective and a full century is just not plausible. Indeed, it's so implausible that I'm not even going to hedge and add the near-obligatory 'IMO'.


Hans
 
They did - it even says so in S9. After the 4FW the Imperium moved the BR to the fleets held in Corridor for counter attack, while deploying BBs in the SM to allow for retreat if necessary.
But if they instead stationed battleriders worth the same credit value as those battleships, the Zhodani would need to muster four times as many forces to achieve superiority. And if those battleriders were kept mounted on their tenders, they could escape a superior force just as easily as ships could.

Or they could station heavy cruisers worth the same credit value as those battleships, which would also force the Zhodani to muster a lot more forces and still give them the same ability to escape as battleships have.

Assuming, that is, that the ship design and combat rules are accurate reflections of "reality".

It's a level of abstraction you have to accept if you choose to use those rules.
But I don't accept those rules for setting-building since they evidently distort the results.

You can always use FF&S to build these ships and use Battle Rider to fight out the engagement. In point of fact as you move from HG2 to the different ship combat systems the outcomes of engagements differ due to the rules used to model them.
Exactly my point. The outcome of TCS-style engagements differ due to the rules used to model them, but the outcome of historical battles in the OTU always remain the same. None of the battles we're heard mentioned flip-flop between being won or lost depending on the rules used to model them, because rules were mostly not used to model them and those that were modelled by rules were fixed once that had been done.


Hans
 
And the stark truth is that the rules dictate doctrine.
Quite the contrary. The doctrine expressed in S9 that cruisers can't stand in the line of battle and battleships can isn't based on the rules. My guess is that it's based on the writer having Age of Sail naval warfare in the back of his mind when he wrote it, with battleships=ships-of-the-line and cruisers=frigates.

The rules could have dictated doctrine if the writers had become TCS experts before they wrote anything about the OTU, but they didn't. But even if that had been so, the moment the rules were changed, doctrine would have remained the same but no longer based on the rules.


Hans
 
Ideally, what you want is a rock, scissors, paper formula that allows some form of weakness whatever doctrine you choose.

lol, but that would never work! It is counter to those seeking a single dimension universe and is supported by a forgotten and tiny piece of color text dictating one doctrine beats all. In the process invalidating the book it is written in and the game that book is intended to support.
 
Quite the contrary. The doctrine expressed in S9 that cruisers can't stand in the line of battle and battleships can isn't based on the rules. My guess is that it's based on the writer having Age of Sail naval warfare in the back of his mind when he wrote it, with battleships=ships-of-the-line and cruisers=frigates.

The rules could have dictated doctrine if the writers had become TCS experts before they wrote anything about the OTU, but they didn't. But even if that had been so, the moment the rules were changed, doctrine would have remained the same but no longer based on the rules.

You miss the point.

Canon can say whatever it wants, and they can narrate any doctrine they want.

But the players have to use the rules, and if the prescribed doctrine makes "crummy fleets" via the rules, players (competitive players) will dump canonical doctrine and make their own.

This incongruence will frustrate players because someone may want to show up with an "imperial Fleet" only to have it wiped off the board by some player generated upstart.

I mean, I look at all of the canon around the AHL, and, I mean, it's a great story -- lots of history, etc. But I wonder, truly, is the ship any good? Does it fight well? I don't know, I've not tried it. Did GDW design a great fighting ship and make plans around it, or did they just come up with a vision of what looked like a "cool" ship (and, you know, it is a cool ship), and then force fit stats on to it. A great Role Playing Ship, but not something you'd make for TCS, or even FFW.

Has anyone fought a Zho fleet against an Imperial fleet and see what the outcomes are really like? Outside of FFW? Does HG replicate, at least at a reasonable level, FFW results?

In contrast the ships in Star Fleet Battles, where each race definitely had a fighting style (Klingon knife fighting vs Fed hammer blows) or even a rigid doctrine (the ISC and it's Echelon). But, of course, SFB is far more detailed.

So, when the players can not legitimately duplicate the stories they read, there's a disconnect, and we have discussions like this about "how did they do that, or why did they do that".
 
I don't know if geography there is deliberate or not, but if I were Imperium Navy Staff, I'd consider the Spinward Marches a buffer zone, and only station ships there I was prepared to lose, and if the Zhodani did manage to mass enough forces to push through to the Corridor, I'd re-enact El Alamein as they over extend their lines of communications and hit them with battle riders, whose primary orders are to cripple the Zhodani's jump drives. Then chase the survivors back with cruisers and capital ships.
 
Four times as effective and a full century is just not plausible.

I will defer to your experience in military decision-making as to what is plausible, if your "four times as effective" is clearly proven by every metric. I don't even know where it comes from, but I doubt it addresses every concern an admiral may have. The admirals always have their own metrics, which often don't agree. In what I have seen, "proving" these things sometimes occurs in massive combat, but not always. "Proof" seldom occurs elsewhere as regards military effectiveness.

What were the large-scale strategic, operational, and tactical engagements with BR's on one side and BB's on the other? I don't recall any, but my knowledge of canon is spotty.

There are still debates as to whether strategic bombing worked, for example, or was worth the effort in the European theatre in WWII. The Pacific is pretty settled, though there are disagreements as to the specific mechanism. (e.g.: Would the 2nd atom bomb have worked if all of the other cities hadn't previously been burned down by incendiaries? Open question for some.)

Europe had over a half century to learn the lessons of our civil war before WWI. They didn't. None of them. They all had various metrics to support their positions. But if you believe it would all change, I'll take your word for it.
 
You miss the point.
How? As far as I can tell, nothing you say is news to me, and nothing contradicts anything I've said. Except perhaps the bit about needing to be able to emulate Imperial fleets in a wargame in order to be able to enjoy roleplaying in the OTU (Which, I know, is not precisely what you said).

Canon can say whatever it wants, and they can narrate any doctrine they want.

But the players have to use the rules, and if the prescribed doctrine makes "crummy fleets" via the rules, players (competitive players) will dump canonical doctrine and make their own.
Which I believe is exactly what happens with the current situation.

This incongruence will frustrate players because someone may want to show up with an "imperial Fleet" only to have it wiped off the board by some player generated upstart.
Has anyone ever shown up to a TCS game with a fleet composed of units drawn from canonical ships?

I mean, I look at all of the canon around the AHL, and, I mean, it's a great story -- lots of history, etc. But I wonder, truly, is the ship any good? Does it fight well? I don't know, I've not tried it. Did GDW design a great fighting ship and make plans around it, or did they just come up with a vision of what looked like a "cool" ship (and, you know, it is a cool ship), and then force fit stats on to it. A great Role Playing Ship, but not something you'd make for TCS, or even FFW.
That works fine for me, because I don't want to play TCS or even FFW. I want to roleplay or referee roleplay. What I object to is using TCS to dictate setting details. Influence them, yes. Try to make the setting fit the rules, by all means. But if that proves impossible, I am of the opinion that setting trumps rules rather than the other way around. Not everybody agrees with that, but I don't see anything odious in arguing from my own beliefs rather than the beliefs of others.

Has anyone fought a Zho fleet against an Imperial fleet and see what the outcomes are really like? Outside of FFW? Does HG replicate, at least at a reasonable level, FFW results?
I don't know. Others will have to answer those questions.

So, when the players can not legitimately duplicate the stories they read, there's a disconnect, and we have discussions like this about "how did they do that, or why did they do that".
I agree completely. That is why we have such discussions.


Hans
 
I don't recall anything in canon stating that BR's could fight mounted, or what rules would apply.
I'm fairly sure everything in rules and canon that deals with that subject says they can't. But then, I didn't say they would fight mounted. I suggested that they stay mounted until they have to fight. That way, if they're attacked by an overwhelming force, they can bug out before getting involved in any fighting. If, OTOH, they are attacked by less than overwhelming forces, they can deploy and fight.


Hans
 
Cleon Class Battle Tender is in TNE/Battle Rider. It is a TL14 J3 2G design (of course that is with TNE's reaction-mass gobbling HEPLAR man-drive).

It carries 6xAdmiral Class Battle Riders.


Can anyone reference where in CT lit that the Cleon BT was presented? And could you give us the HG USP for it please? Thank you.

I would like to see if it is similar to the tender that is being used in Power Projection Fleet by BITS, where they carry Battle Riders that look rather similar to the Battle Frigate GB-VB50 Raptor that is pictured with its Fleet Tender at the end of T5 Core Rules.
 
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