Coda Duello (long)

[rancke]

I'd like to recommend a book by Mack Reynolds called Code Duello. It's an SF book about a team of secret agents on a mission to a world where duelling is so common that the interstellar government has a hard time keeping its consulate staffed...

And if you like it, go look for his other 'Section G' books set in the same universe.


Hans

 

[Eamon]

In military organization where 2 unit members wanted to duel require both to hand in their letter of resignation to the CO. By custom to CO would keep both until the duel was finished. Then the CO would return the letter to the winner and accept the resignation of the loser.
For a variation allow the CO to do what he wants.
He could return both or either one or accept both.

note There was a movie called The Duelist that followed 2 French officers during the Napolenonic wars and the rules they had to follow to obey military law.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by Eamon:
In military organization where 2 unit members wanted to duel require both to hand in their letter of resignation to the CO. By custom to CO would keep both until the duel was finished. Then the CO would return the letter to the winner and accept the resignation of the loser.
For a variation allow the CO to do what he wants.
He could return both or either one or accept both.

note There was a movie called The Duelist that followed 2 French officers during the Napolenonic wars and the rules they had to follow to obey military law.

So if an officer loses a duel he is not only dead but his family loses all the benefits he might have earned. But if you win you carry on carefree. I like the idea of giving the CO discretion, but what happens if the parties are from different units?

If I recall "The Duellists" none of the duels were quite legal, but social pressure drove D'Hubert to accept the challenges of Feraud. I especially liked the saber duel. A Ridley Scott film with William Hobbs fights from a Joseph Conrad novel.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Damn Skippy, Lord Bob! That is one fine (and very underrated) piece of cinema! The Russian winter sequences are among the best ever presented... that and the fight scenes go way beyond the scope corny movie duels... Hats off to ya!

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Posted By Liam on Page 2...

"ANd in our case the losing party drew a laser weapon after a perceived breach of etiquette, and was subdued, secured, and medicated after losing the front half of his foot. The offended party deemed the duel not over; the challenger deemed it expedient to put the player's PC off the ship.
All of this done in character."

To call me a losing party would imply that I actually took part in a duel, and was not set upon by Pirates, which is the reality...
Actually, If you will check your log of the activity, you will find that I drew my Laser on the Teenager From Planet Elfquest AFTER she cut off my foot by "Slipping" It wouldnt have mattered anyway, because this NPC alien gets FOUR ATTACKS A ROUND* ... Which would have put her around 25th level... not bad for a 13 year old...

*During a boarding action, this creature attacked four guys and killed each one in one shot.

"Why? To avoid the bloodshed of a PC killing another PC. The challenged had in roleplaying, portrayed a noble second son who had by his own hand (and PC description) been set aside & sent elsewhere to cause no trouble at home. He had used his station as an excuse to get into/ out of trouble. He roleplayed it brilliantly! It also painted himself(the PC) into a corner."

Actually no, I was horrified that the aforementioned Teenager removed a man's EYE (in an overpowered action worthy of third grade gaming in its wantoness) during a simple activity that could have been handled with little to no force. I protested this, and got railroaded into this "Duel" by a Captain (and a NOBLE!) that was going native, and
Abusing his position.

"As you say Uncle Bob, the perceived concept of Honor is really a Status issue among peers. In the crunch, the challenged dithered and jabbered away, stalling, rather than see he had indeed boxed himself into a corner(some 45 minutes worth). Up until the time was called to "lay on" he was offered three chances to apologize, and back down.
IN Character, he refused to see he had offended the other party. His logic might have been faulty, aye. But it was HIS perception of the facts, vis a vis the perceived notionsof the offended/ challenger."

My "Dithering and Jabbering" was give the respect that this farce deserved, IE none. The Captain, Evidently a Marquis, basically commanded me to fight in a duel with him over a convienient "matter of honor" when the reality was that he merely wanted to get rid of me, as I talked to much. I doubt very seriously If I had won, the Captain's armed goons would have given me the keys to the ship... that and I never fight with shipmates no matter what, and certainly not in those circumstances...


"Boils down to the fact his life was spared despite his breaching of the rules of the duel, and was ordered off the ship (and out of game play). As the challenger is the captain of the ship, this was a direct order (Imp Navy)."

Boils down to a campaign where Might makes Right, and the funniest damn thing ive seen in a while... I've never been thrown out of a game before, And certainly not for playing TOO well...

"But then, we run a campaign of cause & effect. This is as unbiased as can relate it.(and I was the challenged party member's second)."

Hahahaha! hahahhahahaaa! Unbiased? The Referee let another PC get rid of another PC! I was accused of "limelighting" Actually the player that was the Captain didn't like me because I hadn't served in the military and typed to fast... He was basically a "Power Gamer" for whose kind, there is no dynamics or character development, only what sort of gun you have and how many bullets... Very tedious...

"The out of game repercussions...thats a different story. thanks for the topic! more later as we work this out."

Whats to work out? I played my character as he was designed and you guys couldn't deal, or were made to feel inadequate by not being able to think in three dimensions... Then displayed a contempt and a level of unfairness that was quite amusing, and very telling...

Glad to disappoint you.

 

[Eamon]

If the duelist are from two seperate units, each CO receives a letter of resignation from his soldier. After the duel each CO decides wheter to accept or return the letter.
Remeber the primary concern of the CO is the good order and discpline of his unit. He might decide this officer is too much trouble to keep even if this person wins the duel.
Accepting the resignations before hand provides political and legal cover to the service if things go badly.
The service could legally claim that two civilians were fighting a duel.
Most officers knowing their carears are at stake would not accept a duel without knowing the support they would have from their COs, this alone would prevent most duels.
Also by custom, the resignation would not go into effect until basic medical had been provided. This wound would not count as a combat wound and you could not collect disability from it. And you are right the person would lose all benefits that he had not already aquided.
In one the Hornblower novels they covered a duel.
One the rules was challenging a superior officer was a crime.
You should also consider that if a CO performed his duties according to the rules and customs of his service his seniors would protect him from any political fallout from having two potentialy powerful officers duel.

 

[Arsulon]

Thanks for mentioning Hornblower: I was thinking of the novels/TV series while reading the earlier posts.

Absolutely, no duelling between serving officers unless they're equal in rank: otherwise you're playing merry hell with the command structure and handing out free field promotions every time some hotblooded second son wets his blade. The officers should have written permission from their CO's and, by the same token, the CO can forbid the officer to fight (a la Hornblower.)

For some reason I think naval officers would prefer the elegance of a laser pistol when dueling. I picture army and marine officers using guass pistols for the most part, but clearly marines should use the cutlass if blades are called for.

I agree with the tendency of the posts to support "no duelling on deck" for the most part: the ship is a place for teamwork and it doesn't do to let the ratings see you and Mr. Midshipman Eneri cut each other to ribbons over some fetching green girl. It makes sense for a modified serviceman's Code to call for a resolution of honour at first "convenient" landfall: this allows the CO/GM some wiggle-room to accomodate for alien atmospheres and demands of the plot.

A fun source for more duelling situations is the Sharpe's Rifles series: notable especially for Wellington's general order FORBIDDING his officers to resolve matters of honour for the duration of the campaign.

 

[Eamon]

Thanks for mentioning Sharpe's Rifle series, I had read one of the books. Now maybe I'll resd the whole series.
The laser pistol is a good idea in fact it could solve a lot of issues in duels by military officers.
While wearing eye safe goggles, your could set the lasers to just give a bad burn instead a possible death blow.
With TL-15 medicine this would be a minor wound that would not prevent them from performing their duties.
For practice or friendly duels this could be set to act as a lasertag. This could be equivalent to dueling to the first wound.
For civilians the settings if they chose could be set to lethal.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Arsulon:
Thanks for mentioning Hornblower: I was thinking of the novels/TV series while reading the earlier posts.

Absolutely, no duelling between serving officers unless they're equal in rank: otherwise you're playing merry hell with the command structure and handing out free field promotions every time some hotblooded second son wets his blade. The officers should have written permission from their CO's and, by the same token, the CO can forbid the officer to fight (a la Hornblower.)

The restriction lies only in not being allowed to challenge a commanding officer, and even that must have its limitation. The body of Napoleonic Naval Warfare fiction has several instance of lieutenants serving on the same ship duelling, and given the command structure aboard ships, one lieutenant would have to be in command of the other. As for officers of the same rank only, in Parkinson's Devil to Pay every officer except the colonel in an Army regiment resolve to challenge Richard Delancey one at a time, from the second lieutenants to the majors (they draw lots for the order).

A CO couldn't forbid a duel (That is, he could legally, but for social reasons he couldn't). He could require it postponed for the good of the service, but he couldn't postpone it. That was especially the case in an inter-service duel.


(All the above comes from fictional sources only and may not be true; however, the authors of the fictional works in question are supposed to know what they're writing about.)


Hans

 

[Eamon]

I think most people agreed that having duels in the military is not realistic.But since this a game and the fighting of a duel could provide some interesting plot devices perhaps we could find a way to justify it.
In the US Army, every 4-5 years we would get a senior commander that would be fanatic about bayonet training. He would wax on about the " Spirit of the Bayonet" and how it would turn us into warriors. Never having seen combat I would still agree with what every combat veteran would say " If you are close enough enough to stick it you are close enough to shoot it."
The Imperial military could also deluded about duelling, thinking that it breeds an aggressive officer who has proven himself on the field of battle.
So here are some possible rules.
1. No challenges to members of the Imperial Family.
2. No enlisted or warrant officers are allowed to duel at all.
3. No duelling when in contact with the enemy.
4. A CO may restrict challenges and duels to certain times and places. Such as when a ship is in port or a unit is in garrison.
5. A subordinate officer may not challenge his direct superior unless that superior calls him a coward. So a Platoon Leader could not challenge his Company Commander but could challenge a Battalion staff officer.
6. The army,at least, divides their officers into Company grade (O1-O3), Field grade (O4-O6) and General grade (O7-O10). Allow the officers within the grades to fight one another according to rule 5. Allow them to fight outside their grades if accusations of cowadice are made.
7. Chaplins and Doctors may not be challenged to a duel nor may they be challenged, it is also bad manners to accused them to be a coward.
8. Letters of resignation would still be required from both duellists but in this pro-duelling attitude would only be accepted if an officer did not show up without a valid reason.
It is still within the CO progrative to accept either one or no one's letter or both.
The loser of a duel is not automatically dismissed from the service unless he acted as a coward or broke the rules of duelling or cannot carry on with his duties because of perement injury.
9. An officer with a noble title has to write a letter but have to give it to to his CO thereby giving him an advantage over a non-noble officer. He in effect can only lose his position if he acts as a coward or is peremantly injuried.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

So, Let me get this straight... A vast Interstellar Government, run by close attention to discipline and planning, has some way to take into account the resolution of disagreements by a duel? Pardon me, Lords, but I had thought this was The Far Future, and not Napoleonic France...

Duels are cool, yes, but also make no sense... hence why they fell out of Vogue. How could a military maintain order among its ranks, let alone justifying going to the trouble and expenditure to train, equip, and educate its members, only to have them killed off by someone supposedly on "the same side"? It may seem Roddenberry of me to say, but it would stand to reason that rationality would develop somewhat over thousands of years, what?

On my ship, a crewperson that fights another crewperson for any reason is a mutineer, and hence would get a free ticket to "Airlock Land" for being such a stumblebum and not being able to resolve issues without killing or fighting a comrade. Such thinking is Neaderthalish at best...

 

[Eamon]

Most people know that duelling is forbidden by most of the world's governments because it is destructive to society. That a military would feel its bad for unit cohesion and morale and forbid duelling. But than so are summary executions, such as "airlocking " someone, banned for their effect on morale.
But its just a game that people can play anyway that they want.

 

[jatay3]

Dueling could be a vice that the government forbids and waxes indignent about, but still popular. Indeed their is one planet in the Sword Worlds that does forbid dueling but it is hard to imagine Swordies being stopped from fighting if they really want to simply because it is forbidden by law.

 

[jasper]

It has been report to this reporter than on certain planets in which lawyers are present either at the challenge or as seconds, they are killed if their side loses. Note this applies to any who present themselves as lawyers too.

 

[ChaserCaffey]

Originally posted by Darth Sillyus:

Perhaps dueling might be allowed OUTSIDE a given chain of command, but not within one?

How about this:

Duel between Imperial servicemen or women have additional rules attached to them. First, the fight must take place off ship or installation- if the perceived insult takes place on a deep space mission, the parties will simply have to wait on the convenience of the Imperial Service. Second, there must be an officer of higher rank than either participant present to officiate at the duel. Finally, the challenger is automatically transferred to a different ship or unit after the duel (assuming they survive). This is to prevent service members from practicing "advancement by assassination". Note that servicemembers who need to be repeatedly transferred because they keep fighting their superiors will find that promotion and retention boards will take a dim view of them, and someone who provides too many headaches for the Office of Personnel may find himself mustered out with the Emperor's thanks at the end of their current term.

 

[jatay3]

It has been report to this reporter than on certain planets in which lawyers are present either at the challenge or as seconds, they are killed if their side loses. Note this applies to any who present themselves as lawyers too.
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