• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

Combat Walkers: Invincible infantry or sitting ducks?

T

TheKiwi

SOC-9
I've been looking at (among other things) Combat Walkers for a 2300 conversion I've been making (into the Millennium's End system).

Combat Walkers don't exactly move very fast (I worked it out at about 1.5m per second when running for the Kz-7) and I would suspect that running would tire the operator fairly fast. Although they are immune to most infantry smallarms, they seem to be very vulnerable to light anti-armor weapons, plasma rounds and molotov cocktails.

In short, who would want to be a Combat Walker pilot, not me!
 
Judging by the work done on animal gates, speed is porportional to the length of tne leg, so unless power is a concern, a 5 meter tall walker will move at more than twice the speed of an encumbered man.

Worst problem with a walker is its high profile. Easy to see, hard to armor.
 
Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
Worst problem with a walker is its high profile. Easy to see, hard to armor.
Click to expand...
I do allot of Sci-fi war gaming with various
rule sets and, the walker concept really only
has a very limited set of tactical uses.As
you've stated they tend to be too easy a
target in most cases. Where they do seem to
work are in built up areas like urban or for boarding
actions down ship corridors where it least it gives you some armor where needed.
Other than those few options a track or
grav vehicle will serve far better in most circumstances.
 
Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
Judging by the work done on animal gates, speed is porportional to the length of tne leg
Click to expand...
You sure that's not square root of leg length? Assuming constant leg acceleration, it should be.

The worst problems with walkers are (a) it's very difficult to build a good leg drivetrain, and (b) walkers tend to be inconvenient shapes to armor, with a lot of area for their volume.
 
According to the canon rules, the combat walkers had very low speeds, whether walking, trotting or running. A full tit, the Kz-7 could do 100 meters in 30 seconds of combat or about 12km/h (7.5 mph). The seems to me to be a sitting duck. At close range, infantry could weave and bob and stay completely out of sight, while slapping a nice C-4 satchel for decoration.

I don't think they'd be much use in urban combat either. A molotov cocktail into the air ventilation system, and the operator is going to cook.
 
Gents,

Combat walkers are part of 2300AD, and thus neccessarily part of 2320, because they are cool and not because they're particularly well thought out.

You find similar examples in any other RPG or setting.

Don't try and understand them, enjoy them instead. If the idea still sticks in your craw, rule them out of bounds in your camapaign. If your players complain, point them to to this thread!


Have fun,
Bill
 
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Don't try and understand them, enjoy them instead.
Click to expand...
My thoughts exactly. If you accept that grav vehicles work, you can accept that combat walkers work. We're all just having fun with make-believe, here ... ;)
 
Greetings and salutations,

Another good use of the Combat Walker would be shock value against an ill prepared enemy. In a 2300AD game I ran years ago, the marines took an irreparable walker, stripped it as much as it could, put in some explosives, and dropped it in the center of an enemy base.

Just the shock that walkers could be dropped from an aircraft was enough of a shock unto itself. But when the thing exploded after a few round was priceless. Needless to say, the Marines received a little reprimand for destroying government property, but taking the enemy's command and communications more than made up for it.
 
I amagine the main role for combat walkers would be to provide mobile fire-support for their less armoured comrades.

One issue worth considering is the relative expense of space transporting combat walkers Vs vehicles designed for providing fire support (I think there is a thread about this elsewhere). Combat walkers would be a lot cheaper.

Rob
 
Originally posted by TheKiwi:
According to the canon rules, the combat walkers had very low speeds, whether walking, trotting or running. A full tit, the Kz-7 could do 100 meters in 30 seconds of combat or about 12km/h (7.5 mph). The seems to me to be a sitting duck. At close range, infantry could weave and bob and stay completely out of sight, while slapping a nice C-4 satchel for decoration.

I don't think they'd be much use in urban combat either. A molotov cocktail into the air ventilation system, and the operator is going to cook.
Click to expand...
Ah yes, but those were second-generation walkers. 2320AD is up to the third generation...

Not quite Traveller powered armor, but faster, and smaller, than the walkers that have gone before. Modular hardpoints, anti-missile systems, and stronger, faster actuators. The Moot currently has a drawing of one of the later suits.
 
Originally posted by Colin:
> The Moot currently has a drawing of one of the later suits.

One of Ted Lindsey's combat walker drawings is in the "Art Sneak Peak" thread. It looks great! Smoother, more-evolved and tougher looking.

AlexB
 
Wouldn´t walkers be pretty convenient in dense forests/jungles? Vehicles can´t go there, artillery and air support are next to impossible.
 
Originally posted by Colin:
Ah yes, but those were second-generation walkers. 2320AD is up to the third generation...
Click to expand...
Colin,

Good that you mentioned Travellerbattledress. It brings up an important point that has been discussed with regards to battledress for years now.

There's a hard limit set by the human body at work here. It depends on whether you 'drive' the walker or 'wear' the walker.

If your legs are part of the walkers' legs; that is if they move when walker moves, there is an upper limit for speed. Go past that and you'll cripple the wearer by moving his legs faster/further than the flesh can handle.

If your legs are not part of the walkers legs; that is if you're 'driving' it and not 'wearing' it, the machine's leg speed is not limited.

Traveller battledress gets around this 'speed limit' by using grav-belts, a technology not available in 2300AD or 2320.

So, which is it? Do walker 'pilots' in 2320 wear or drive their machines? Or does it depend on the model? A bigger 'driven' walker would be faster than a smaller 'worn' walker, there may be uses for both!

Your point about a walker's ability to carry lots of countermeasures is a very good one.


Have fun,
Bill
 
2320 has walkers that fit into both categories. Something like the BH-24 is worn, while the Catfish-class walker is driven. The Catfish is faster, but bigger. Driven-type walkers can carry more armor than worn types, too. It also is treated as a vehicle as far as Initiative is concerned (acts after all personal-scale units go), while the worn-types act with the personal-scale units, albeit with a penalty to Initiative.
 
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Don't try and understand them, enjoy them instead. If the idea still sticks in your craw, rule them out of bounds in your camapaign. If your players complain, point them to to this thread!
Click to expand...
Nah. Don't rule them out of bounds unless it makes things harder on you the GM. If you don't think they are effective (or are outright dangerous), and your players don't believe you, then go ahead and let them be used by the players.

Then, at the best (worst for them) possible moment, give the resistant players a demonstration of why they are ineffective.

It is much more fun that way, and you will usually have less resistance of the players (and the new PCs) after that.
 
Count me in the anti-mech camp. I think their survivability would pale against armor (tracked, wheeled, or grav) at the same tech level. A high center of gravity, lots of exposed joints, and less armor/weapons (due to mass constraints); how can they compete? I really can't see them even being effective against well equipped, hardened infantry; one good anti-armor round to a leg and they're rendered immobile (i.e. big target). Then it's just a matter of time before someone knocks it over.

Originally posted by Chaos:
Wouldn´t walkers be pretty convenient in dense forests/jungles? Vehicles can´t go there, artillery and air support are next to impossible.
Click to expand...
It's difficult for people to move through a jungle, how is a 5m tall, 2m wide walker going to do it? And the bigger the chassis, the worse it would be. With uneven ground, tree roots, several feet of leaf clutter, low limbs, vines, etc., your mech will have a heck of a time just staying upright, aside from fighting on the move. Plus, if your enemy is hiding in the jungle, he isn't in mechs either, so just send in your grunts to route him out.

Artillery can be pretty effective in a jungle environment; fuses are set with a time delay so they don't explode in the canopy. Mines can also be dispersed by artillery, making it hell for the enemy to get out of the patch of jungle they dug in to.
 
However, we're not considering Combat Walkers in an All Arms environment are we?

The Combat Walker is highly vulnerable to even rifle launched grenades (although as has been discussed, the grenades of 2300 are far too potent, having a greater explosive effect than their weight of plastic explosive).

However, the CW is not an arm in of itself, but it should be considered a supporting arm to the light infantry. In fact their role is not too dissimilar to the old infantry tanks. They provide fire support and can carry heavier weapons than men can carry.

We had the British Light Role Battlegroup having a 24 CW Pl in S Coy. An advancing Coy would be supported by a dozen CW. They have much better sensors, a heavy plasma gun (or autocannon, both substitute for an APC's cannon), machine gun (which can easily be actively cooled, meaning it can fire full tilt until out of ammo), and perhaps even Anti-Tank missiles.

They are perfect for overwatch fires, covering retreats, spearheading stormings and operating in extreme environments (see the Dayside Campaign and Armoured Commando).

They do not replace conventional infantry, but supplement it.
 
Artillery can be pretty effective in a jungle environment; fuses are set with a time delay so they don't explode in the canopy. Mines can also be dispersed by artillery, making it hell for the enemy to get out of the patch of jungle they dug in to.
Click to expand...
. . . and a really good beam laser burns it all down.

Then, at the best (worst for them) possible moment, give the resistant players a demonstration of why they are ineffective.
Click to expand...
Yeah! All the energy/heat seeking missiles fired from orbit converge on the big metal walking fusion reactors and KABOOM! Boy, glad I wasn’t in one of those.
 
2320AD's combat walkers are on the small side (2.5-3m tall), relatively fast (20-30 kph, full-out), have good sensors, point-defense systems, low active signatures (powered by a fuel cell), and carry a plasma gun supplemented by a machinegun, laser rifle, and/or missile launchers and drone racks. Armored like a vehicle, but with initiative like a person. Kinda clumsy, but hardly sitting ducks. The gen 3 models can even kneel, crouch, and crawl. Not Traveller battledress, but hardly a Battlemech either (10-13m), or even a Gear (4-5m).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top