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Combat Walkers: Invincible infantry or sitting ducks?

Originally posted by Colin:
2320AD's combat walkers are on the small side (2.5-3m tall), relatively fast (20-30 kph, full-out), have good sensors, point-defense systems, low active signatures (powered by a fuel cell), and carry a plasma gun supplemented by a machinegun, laser rifle, and/or missile launchers and drone racks. Armored like a vehicle, but with initiative like a person. Kinda clumsy, but hardly sitting ducks. The gen 3 models can even kneel, crouch, and crawl. Not Traveller battledress, but hardly a Battlemech either (10-13m), or even a Gear (4-5m).
Colin, my reply is still 'if the tech exists to make walkers imagine what kind of armored conventional vehicles are possible'. All that mass wasted on articulated legs, complex joints, servo actuators, gyro stabilizers, etc. could be used for more armor, better weapons, or more reloads.

As infantry weapons become more and more powerful, even the staple tank would have to evolve into something much scarier. And without having to hoist and balance its bulk several meters in the air just to move, a ground hugging tank can use that power elsewhere (perhaps to move even more mass or move faster).
 
There's that, too. But conventional armor can't open a door (without shooting it off) nor can it go down a starship corridor. Combat walkers fulfill a role of heavy fire support for conventional infantry, not a stand-alone "walking tank" role. The armor is heavy enough to withstand all personal weapons, PDS gives them a chance vs. missiles and rockets, while direct-fire heavy weapons will pulp them.
2320AD conventional armor is pretty impressive, too, whether it be hover-mobile, wheeled or tracked. You should some of that in a vehicle book somewhen along the way. Railguns, ETC cannons, missiles, combat drones, EM pulse weapons, lasers, plasma guns, battlefield anti-missile/anti-aircraft systems, swarm munitions, seeker guns, and many countermeasusres for them.
 
Bromgrev: SF3D and Ma.K. ZbV3000 were definitely influences, along with the original BH-21 art. We had originally gone down the route of something more anime like Appleseed landmates but it was a little too high tech for 2320AD. I ended up taking the original BH-21 design and tried to blend ideas from a variety of sources that I thought made sense. I definitely didn't like the large transparent canopies of some of the SF3D suits but I liked the bulky look since it implies lots of mechanisms for articulating the limbs.

One of the things I learned was that anytime you're building an "armored suit" at near human scale, it's going to look like something somebody else has done before since everything is built around the form of the human operator.

I like my design better than the original SF3D stuff, but then again, I'm kind of biased. ;)
 
Colin,

I don't have any problem with powered assault armor; give me Starship Troopers any day! The Imperial Marines IMTU routinely take down ships in the stuff. But then again, they don't tend to use door knobs either! ;)

On the ground I see jump troopers being most effective in hit-and-run raids and ambushes against soft targets where their greater fire power and mobility are a distinct advantage. Bounce in, wreak havoc, and bounce out. But without the support of combine arms or orbital gunfire, I can't see them standing alone against a well equipped enemy.
 
This is a fascinating topic, mostly because a friend of mine and I were discussing it just the other day.

I think at the moment in 2300 (making no claims to 2320 as I haven't seen the rules yet) Combat Walkers have some similarity to what crossbows (or early firearms) were to the bow or very early steam-powered automotives compared to horses, as long as the analogies aren't taken too far. Eventually they'll evolve into Traveller style battledress, but the technology is currently in its infancy buoyed more by enthusiasm rather than actual effectiveness.

CWs are actually like a number of weapons in 2300 - new technologies of marginal improvement over what exists. Like the FAM-90's area fire mode, I'm sure someone thought it was a good idea at the time and great against anyone not wearing armor. Plasma guns are in a similar boat. There's nothing that 2300 PGs can do that a combo of grenade launchers and anti-tank missiles can't do better and ultimately more cheaply.

Doctrines and uses for CWs are still being developed in 2300. Once people have a better idea of CWs should do, they'll probably see lots of improvement to take advantage of their physical strength and armor. Like I don't think that PGs or lasers are the best things to stick on CWs.

In my 2300 derivative game, CWs carry stuff like Lifeguard systems (anti-sniper), anti-optical strobe lasers, autocannon and machineguns (which are liquid cooled or rotary designs since CWs are able to port around great weight at a reasonable speed), as well as 'bunker buster' automortars or support missiles that can be fired indirectly or directly. They mostly used in built-up situations and are always in support of conventional infantry where their staying power and presence makes them a fire magnets, allowing the infantry to get into position safely. APCs, and some hovertanks have running boards and handholds along the back where CWs can hitch a ride to keep up with infantry in AFVs while still gaining protection from the tank's armor.
 
^ I don't mind the idea of bureaucratic bean counters forcing poorly vetted or unproven technologies on soldiers; that's fairly common today (M-16, B-1, F/A-18A, etc.). Some of it is effective, some has potential, and the rest is pure junk disposed of quickly on the battlefield by the testers.

If I may wax on how I would approach CW's (sorry, I'm feelin' kinda gabby ;) ):

I would begin with stripped down versions initially issued to combat engineer battalions as heavy lifters or construction equipment (basically improved mobility cranes and loaders of popular civilian design). The engineers began modifying the loaders shortly after receipt so weapons and armored panels could be attached when needed. When employed against attackers, the CW's greatest advantage was surprise; noone expected heavily armed and armored cargolifters in combat (just like armored bulldozers of the past).

This led to the development of several models modified specifically for combat. Less humanoid in appearance, they tended to be more like attack helicopters with legs with surplus ground attack a/c cockpits utilized to protect the operator. Aircraft weapon systems were also modified for use, giving most walkers a potent punch against soft targets and light infantry.

The first trials only served to highlight the faults in the concept; the loaders were too slow to keep up with fighting vehicles or troops on the march. When pushed, units suffered numerous mechanical problems from overstress. As semi-mobile weapon platforms, they provided excellent fire support but were quickly dispatched by anti-armor weapons. The program was scrapped although the combat engineers continued to make modifications to their units and successors.

In 2XXX, modified loaders were commandeered by members of the XX Special Forces battalion to assault hardened enemy infantry positions in the valley of YYYYY on ZZZZZ. In addition to providing immediated and decisive heavy weapons support to SF soldiers, the loaders were employed to pack several field howitzers into firing position, under the enemy's extensive anti-aircraft umbrella. After the success of this mission, Special Warfare Command revisited the project.

Under new funding, the previous designs were scrapped in favor of a new approach. SF required a system which was highly mobile, armored against infantry weapons, easily transported by air, and packing the fire power equivalent of an infantry squad. Technological advances in prosthetics and neuro interfaces allowed much of the original rigid loader mechanism to be replaced by synthetic musculature and a rigid exo-skeleton. Weapon systems again were modified from those already in use in combat aircraft. The result was a 1000kg armored suit, capable of withstanding concentrated small arms fire and nearby explosive fragmentation weapons, with limited low altitude drop capability, able to mount a wide assortment of heavy infantry weapons and a/c submunition dispensers. In addition, the unit maintained a 250kg lift capability with only moderate loss of fuel cell endurance.

Dubbed the Titan by the development team, the working proto-type proved extremely effective against soft and semi-hardened targets in controlled combat trials. Armor surface treatments and an integrated countermeasure system proved reasonably effective against anti-armor weapons, given normal stand off ranges. The operators found the interface easy to use and nearly instinctive.

The first units were field tested by the XX Special Forces in 2XXX. In 2XXX, the XX SF employed Titans against enemy forces in three highly successful operations with acceptable losses. With feedback from combat veterans, the designs were improved.
 
Sounds plausible. One of the early adopters of the CW concept was the Japanese, whose near-fetishistic obsession with robots and the like led to them to develop humanoid walkers. These initial walkers were used largely in hospitals (no, really, the Japanese are developing them NOW) and warehouses, being too slow for combat usage.
 
I'm sure I saw an article somewhere that referred to some (never before seen) Kafer combat walkers seeing service during the invasion (BCV-4 or Kimanjano?).
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:


Or how about a pentapod biotech based one...
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There is a bio-suit available in the main rules for 2320. More of a pentapod environment suit designed for humans, but it does include some augmentation and protection.
 
Originally posted by TheKiwi:
I'm sure I saw an article somewhere that referred to some (never before seen) Kafer combat walkers seeing service during the invasion (BCV-4 or Kimanjano?).
I vaguely recall having seen it as well, but it was a web-based article, rather than anything "official." Even had some drawings, IIRC.
 
Originally posted by Colin:
Sounds plausible. One of the early adopters of the CW concept was the Japanese, whose near-fetishistic obsession with robots and the like led to them to develop humanoid walkers.
Heh, I was going to point this out myself, given the Japanese desire to make mecha "real" but thought people might not take the comment the right way.

Any good hints about how 2320's CWs will look like and be armed with, Colin?
 
In the main book, there will be three combat walkers. The first, the BH-24, is a fourth-generation design, incorporating a fixed plasma gun and several hardpoints. The hardpoints can mount point-defense systems, missiles, machineguns (9mm binary gatling being a favorite), drones, plasma guns and a railgun system.
The Freihafen-built Jaeger is a third-generation design, based in part off the old Kz-7 design. It has less modularity than the newer BH-24, and is slower and less agile.
The Manchurian Type 17 combat swimmer is a non-humanoid mini-sub/walker designed for amphibious assaults and littoral actions. It carries a blue-green laser cannon in a turret, and is equipped with a couple of hardpoints for missiles or mini-torps.
 
Gents,

Well, the concensus is that walkers aren't some sort of Traveller battledress or Heinlenian mobile infantry either. That's a good thing, it means 2320AD is its own setting.

I like the idea of walkers as an infantry 'assist'. Walkers aren't perfect and can't be used in every situation just like nearly every other piece of military hardware.

Having walkers toting various power hungry countermeasures that can help shield it - and the infantry it is closely supporting - from various types of nastiness is another good idea.


Have fun,
Bill
 
If walkers were a little bigger, they could be closer to infantry fighting vehicles. They just need to be strong/large enough to carry about 4-6 soldiers. They would hold onto external handholds (and would need to be armored, I would think), to cover long distances, ford water barriers, etc.

Maybe that would have been one stage of their evolution.
 
Walkers will shine in any situation with constrained uneven but firm terrains, with terrain as tall as they are.

Funtionally, leg speed is dual limited. Given a generally proportional biped/quadruped, longer legs will be proportionally faster; the mass of the legs goes up on a cube of the length, while maximum loading stress is only doubled... but our legs are limited more by muscle than by bone...

Human leg enhancements have allowed speeds of up to 30mph on human leg power alone; they generally put the wearer 1.3-2.0m up in the air, and top speed is a bounding "jog" gait, and make extensive use of springs. Sustained speeds are much more reasonable...15-20 mph. No longer have the magazine articles, but have seen some really good stuff on Beyond Tomorrow and other such shows.
 
Originally posted by Colin:
2320 has walkers that fit into both categories. Something like the BH-24 is worn, while the Catfish-class walker is driven. The Catfish is faster, but bigger. Driven-type walkers can carry more armor than worn types, too. It also is treated as a vehicle as far as Initiative is concerned (acts after all personal-scale units go), while the worn-types act with the personal-scale units, albeit with a penalty to Initiative.
Excellent, that's pretty much as they are done in a few other tactical systems I play.
 
Colin, I've got a question regarding the type of combat walkers you designed for 2320.

Originally posted by Colin:
2320 has walkers that fit into both categories. Something like the BH-24 is worn, while the Catfish-class walker is driven. The Catfish is faster, but bigger. Driven-type walkers can carry more armor than worn types, too. It also is treated as a vehicle as far as Initiative is concerned (acts after all personal-scale units go), while the worn-types act with the personal-scale units, albeit with a penalty to Initiative.
The background:
I tested with my group the T20 system for 2320 with the Mission Acturus module.
In this Module a french combat walker was used and I "converted" this walker as a vehicle to be able to resist a lot of incoming fire.
Vehicles have an armor value plus of 5 against infantry and do not accumulate "shock" damage (hitpoints) as would the wearer of a battlesuit.

Wouldn't the pilot of such a battlesuit (no vehicle) brought quickly down by the accumulated amount of damage his opponents can distribute to his armor without penetrating it?
 
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