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Commercial starship lifeboat requirements

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...Here's my thoughts:

...

At any rate, your knowledge base is weak in some areas. For example, your belief that freezing was a problem in space, ....

Hi,

Actually its my understanding that freezing in space is a problem.

If the hull were ruptured or damaged and one of the internal spaces of the ship is vented to vacuum then that space will begin to drop in temperature and systems moving though those systems will likely be compromised in their usability.

For reference this site ( http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=5532&page=27 ) notes that with respect to micrometeoroid impacts on a space station "Such perforations typically are accompanied by rapid temperature changes and a decrease in air pressure, which can cause an internal fog."

Additionally, the site "Human Exposure to Vacuum" notes that "If a decompression occurs, temperature will be reduced rapidly."

http://www.geoffreylandis.com/vacuum.html

Once a damaged space decompresses (to more or less a near vacuum) it will be at a lower temperature than the rest of the "non-decompressed" sections of the ship and while heat will flow from the 'non-decompressed' sections of the ship to the 'decompressed section through the shared walls and decks between the two, the lack of an atmosphere will prevent the temperature in the decompressed section from ever reaching the temperature of the rest of the ship (as I understand it).

With respect to thermal insulation and such, in the books "Space Stations - Systems and Utilization" and "Space Vehicle Design" the authors of those books both discuss the thermal control of space stations and space ships noting that typically these type vehicles/structures would contain both Active and Passive systems to address the thermal differences between the inside of the craft which typically be at a temperature suitable for human use and the outside of such craft which may alternate between being exposed to direct sunlight to being in the shadow of Earth (or any other such planet etc).

These books indicate that these passive systems would typically consist of things like Multi-Layer Insulation (consisting of stuff like alternating layers of aluminized mylar and netting to form a gap between the mylar), paint and other types of coating, shielding, and insulating washers to prevent/limit the ability of items attached to the hull from one side from providing an easy path for heat to travel to the other side (such as allowing the heat inside the ship to travel through the hull and insulation to the outside of the ship or allowing the radiate heat that may be striking the hull to bypass the hull and insulation to the inside of the craft).

As an example, as noted in the "Space Stations" book that I referenced above "due to the different illumination cases from the Sun, the incidenting radiation induces varying temperatures from -160 deg C up to +125 deg C at the vehicle surface..." while a lot of the stuff within a space station (including the personnel) typically will require an internal temperature of about 20 deg C +/- 5 deg C.

Because of this, the external hull of a craft or station operating in Earth orbit will be designed to address the wide potential temperature variations from the internal side of the craft to the outside surface of the craft, while internal insulation and such between inner zones of such a craft would likely be much lesser, since the variation between internal spaces is likely much less (though perhaps the structure between say machinery spaces and non machinery spaces or between tankage and non tankage spaces may likely be better insulated than for that between other spaces).

For a ship in space away from Earth, but at the same orbital distance from the Sun, it will be receiving the same amount of direct sunlight (but not the energy that may be reflected off the Earth onto the craft). As such though, the temperature of the craft pointed toward the Sun (or a similar star) will likely be subjected to high temperatures similar to the high temperature that a craft orbiting Earth may see on the sunlit side of its orbit, while the side away from the sunlight/starlight would likely be at a much lower (shaded) temperature.

In addition while in deeper space, further away from the Sun/star lesser radiation will likely impact the ship and hence the "incidenting radiation" (to use the term from the book I referenced above) induced temperatures will likely be much lower than when closer to the star.

On a Traveller type ship, I kind of assume that the relatively thick structure typically shown for the outer hull likely serves not only as 'structure and protection against micro-meteoroids' and such but also likely serves to help insulate and provide thermal protection between the inside and outside of the ship. Because internal structure is typically shown a bit thinner and the temperature differences between the various internal spaces is not likely as great as the temperature difference between the typical internal temperatures and those that the outside of the ship may be expected to see.

As such, the deck and bulkhead surfaces between those spaces exposed to vacuum and those still intact will also have a temperature gradient across them and thus the venting of one space will likely lead to temperature drops in adjacent spaces as well.

Beyond this too though is also the potential for a situation where, if a rupture in the hull is large enough, then the "incidenting radiation" from the sun/star may strike a portion of an internal deck or bulkhead that has not been designed to accommodate such energy which could also lead to other problems.

So yes, I believe that both freezing and other temperature induced issues are of concern with any systems that are in a section of a ship that may become decompressed, and that even for systems in adjacent spaces (that share a bulkhead or deck) there may also be other thermal issues as well since there will likely be heat loss through those decks and bulkheads.
 
...Here's my thoughts:

...

At any rate, your knowledge base is weak in some areas. For example, ...or some of your ideas about disease organisms and their behavior, or your statements about "outside air," or a fair chunk of your discussion with Fritz.

....

Hi,

In my reading about spacecraft and space stations, air quality and the dangers of mold, bacteria, spores and viruses etc are all addressed as being potentially big concerns. A simple web search on 'bacteria' and 'space station' or 'bacteria' and 'Mir' for example will bring up numerous hits, including this site which notes that;

"Bacteria found in rocks taken from the cliffs at Beer have survived a grueling year-and-a-half exposure to space conditions on the exterior of the ISS and returned home alive, becoming the longest-lived photosynthesizing microbes to survive in space"

http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2010-08/bacteria-survive-553-day-exposure-exterior-iss

As for the ASHREA Spec in question, I do not have access to a copy of it (at least not a current one, that I am aware of), but rather I have only seen the Addendum that I referenced previously with the definitions within it. For reference though, here is a copy of a figure from ASHREA (that I believe may be from an old version of the spec) which shows a typical ventilation system with both Outdoor/Make Up air and Recirculated Air.

VentSys.jpg


As for specific air change per hour rates, here are several tables noting typical values;

From Germanischer Lloyd for Sea Going ships;

  • Paint stores and flammable liquid lockers - at least 10 changes of air per hour
    CO2 rooms - not less than 6 air changes per hour
    Refrigerating machinery spaces with group 1 refrigerants - at least 30 air changes per hour
    For refrigerating machinery spaces in with group 2 refrigerants, e.g. ammonia -the number of air changes per hour shall not be less than 40 not be less than 40 *
    * Where refrigeration systems using ammonia are installed in rooms equipped with an effective sprinkler system, the minimum required capacity
    of the fans indicated above may be reduced by 20 %.
    For the separator spaces - a specific capacity rate of 30 air changes per hour is deemed to be sufficient. Higher air rates may be required due to heat generation within the space
    Pipe Tunnels - These areas are considered safe if they are ventilated with at least 6 changes of air per hour
    Gas cylinder storage rooms - at least six air changes per hour based on the gross volume of the room
    Solid dangerous goods in bulk - at least 6 air changes per hour in the cargo
    space
    Cargo spaces of cargo ships for the carriage of vehicles with fuel in their tanks - at least 6 or 10 air changes perhour depending on the arrangement of the electrical equipment **
    Cargo spaces of ro-ro (Roll-On/Roll-Off) ships - at least 6 or 10 air changes per hour depending on the arrangement of the electrical equipment *
    ** During periods of loading and unloading - air change rate of 20 air changes per hour
    ** In closed ro-ro and vehicle spaces below the bulkhead deck continuous ventilation at the rate of at least 10 air changes per hour is to be provided whenever vehicles are on board
    Special category cargo spaces - at least 10 air changes per hour
    Livestock Carrier - if the minimum clear height of the space is 2,30 m or more, not less than 20 air changes per hour ***
    Livestock Carrier - if the minimum clear height of the space is 1,80 m or more, not less than 30 air changes per hour ***
    ***Proportional for spaces with heights in between
    Living/sleeping quarters - 6 air changes min (8 if using 20% recirculated air)
    Messes, saloons, offices - 12 air changes min (15 if using 20% recirculated air)
    Galleys - 12 + 28 air changes min (15 + 25 if using 20% recirculated air)
    Pantries 15 air changes min (20 if using 20% recirculated air)
    Dry provision rooms 5 air changes min (10 if using 20% recirculated air)
    Sanitary rooms 10 – 15 air changes per hour (as exhaust flow)
    Laundries 10 – 20 air changes per hour as inflow with 15 – 30 as exhaust flow
    Drying rooms 25 air changes per hour inflow with 30 changes per hour as exhaust

Also it notes that "Cabins with own sanitary facilities should be supplied with approximately 10% more incoming air than extracted from the sanitary space

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...PB50YitY3RGpTcNaxeIwmVw&bvm=bv.51156542,d.b2I

Additionally from various US Navy sources;

  • Interior located O2N2 Fill/Producer/Refrigeration/Stowage Rooms - 60 air changes per hour
    O2N2 Compressor Room - 60 air changes per hour
    Air Conditioning & Refrigeration Machinery Room - 4 to 6 air changes per hour
    All Sanitary Spaces - 15 air changes per hour
    Vehicle Stowage Area - 21.8 air changes per hour
    Battery Charging and Storage Area - 6 air changes per hour
    Spaces containing battery charging racks - 10 air changes per hour
    CHT/VCHT/Sewage Pump Room - 10 air changes per hour
    Acid/Corrosive Storeroom - 15 air changes per hour
    Flammable Gas Cylinder Storeroom - 15 air changes per hour
    Halon Cylinder Storeroom (for fire fighting) - 7.5 to 15 air changes per hour
    Hazardous Material Issue Rooms - 15 air changes per hour
    JP5 (Aviation Fuel) Filter Room - 6 air changes per hour
    JP5 (Aviation Fuel) Pump Room - 10 air changes per hour
    Laundry - 85.7 air changes per hour
    MOGAS/Gasoline Filter Room, MOGAS/Gasoline Pump Room, or MOGAS/Gasoline Fueling Station - six air changes per hour
    MOGAS (Vehicle Fuel) Ready Service space - 60 air changes per hour
    Non-flammable Gas Cylinder Storeroom - 7.5 air changes per hour
    Oil Test Laboratory - 10 air changes per hour
    Paint Mixing & Issue Room - 15 air changes per hour

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...0R_ouAECAt41uCtUlx0gltA&bvm=bv.51156542,d.b2I

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...Ntr4C3XbpPoiQSsnuntvwWA&bvm=bv.51156542,d.b2I

As such, I think that these sources are fairly clear in demonstrating that the required air flow rate onboard ocean going ships are a fair bit higher than the 0.35 air changes per hour that has been suggested by some based on the ASHREA standard.

As for my discussions with Mr. Brown, I made a comment based (I believe) on a recollection of something that I had heard previously. He indicated that he disagreed with what I stated. I then searched through some books that I have as well as the internet and was able to find an example that I believe supported my original comment.

As such, while different people may have different thoughts and understandings about different topics, I'm not sure how any of the demonstrates a specific weakness of knowledge in these areas.

I readily agree that I am not an expert in most any of these fields, however, I do have a dual degree in Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering and have been working in that field for the past 25 years. as such I have had experience with Heating and Ventilation systems on commercial, naval, and other government type vessels for example.
 
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Hi,

As for referencing the internet as sources, I typically often use the internet for research both for personal hobbies as well as for work purposes, and several of the references that I have made in these discussions have been to specifically provide an easily accessible data source to anyone who is interested.

Beyond that though, over the years I have collected a lot of Traveller related books, games and such (as well as the CD's fro FFE) and I have also bought a lot of books on a variety of topics including not only ocean going ship design but also aircraft design, automobile design and space related topics.

Along these lines books I currently have in my library that I have consulted during my posts include;

"Space Stations - Systems and Utilization"
"Space Vehicle Design"
"Survival in Space"
"Space Medicine"
"Principles of Bioastronautics"
"Space Biology"
"Medical and Biological Aspects of the Energies of Space"
"Preliminary Design of an Experimental World-Circling Spaceship"
"Spaceflight Life Support and Biospherics"
""Living and Working in Space"
"Living in Space"
"The Space Shuttle Operator's Manual"
"Breakdown- Deadly Technological Disasters"
"Marine Engineering"
"Introduction to Naval Engineering"
"Principles of Naval Engineering"
"Practical Ship Design"
"Submersible Vehicle Systems Design"

In addition to the above I also have collected the following books in the field of aeronautical engineering and aviation;

"Airplane Design Parts I through VIII" by the DAR Corporation
"Aircraft Design - A Conceptual Approach" by Dan Raymer
"Simplified Aircraft Design for Homebuilders" by Dan Raymer
"synthesis of Subsonic Aircraft Design" by E. Torenbeek
"Introduction to Aircraft Design" by John P. Fielding
" Landing Gear Design for Light Aircraft" by Ladislao Pazmany
"Mach 1 and Beyond" by Larry Reithmaier
"Modern Combat Aircraft Design: Technology and Function" by Klaus Hunecke
"Future Flight" by Bill Siuru and John Busick
"Air Disasters" by Stanley Stewart

As I noted before I am not trying to claim that I am an expert in most any of these fields nor am I trying to give the impression that I think I know more than others.

I'm just trying to show that I do have an interest (that goes back many years) in a lot of the stuff we have been discussing and I have collected a fair number of resources over the years to help me better try and understand some of it.
 
PFVA63:
Good for you! (serious, not sarcasm)

As a Registered Architect, those air change numbers you quote seem way too high from personal job experience except for uses like industrial painting facilities or auto repair service centers ... both locations with high VOC concentrations needing additional ventilation. But I had no response to the values posted in your linked sources, some of which I was a little uncertain about and others of which looked rock solid.

I have a post-it on my desk at work to ask Paul (our in-house Mechanical Engineer) about any insights he could offer and just have not had a chance to do it yet.

I find the hundreds of posts on life support minutiae too much like work and too little like fun to be worth more than a brief scan of the unfolding discussion, but some seem to enjoy it while others have also dropped out. That's why ice cream comes in so many flavors. :)

I was impressed by your calm and wanted to congratulate you on your support of your data and opinions in the face of challenge.



The official atpollard IMTU position on lifeboats (to contribute something to the original topic) is "Yes, they exist" and "No, they are not required on all ships." I view them like side mounted air bags in a car ... usefull if you have them and need them, but not every vehicle has/needs them. My reasons for this have nothing to do with disease control or the merits of air changes in life support systems or even the chances of a catastrophic multi-system failure. I just like having the option to find a stowaway in a life pod or the plot option to have two plucky droids escape to a nearby planet. I see them as a source of potential fun.


... And I am all about having fun playing Traveller.

YMMV on escape pods, and that is fine, but if your 'Mileage Varies' on having fun, then I feel sorry for you. ;)
(And that last line was a joke.)
 
Hi,

Thank you.

I'm beginning to suspect that a big part of the difference in numbers may well be for what you suggest, that the ASHREA number don't necessarily address cooling or the presence of volatile stuff in the air.

I believe that in ocean going ship borne usage the air change rates likely do reflect the use of air for heating and cooling and that on a ship there probably are a lot of volatile stuff in the air that needs to be controlled, as well as possibly also the need to control humidity and other such stuff.

On a spaceship, since its mostly a closed environment and the machinery plants can be fairly large in comparison to the rest of the ship, I wouldn't be surprised if there wouldn't be some issues with volatile stuff there too, especially since some have suggested the use of batteries to supplement power in the event that power is lost, etc.
 
We design a LOT of auto dealerships. One trait that they do share with Traveller Starships is that they have two completely incompatible spaces/functions. There is a sales/office/customer area and there is an auto service area (with as many as 36 service bays - many dedicated to large truck repair). To suggest that the HVAC systems for the two areas be combined would draw stares of disbelief from the architect and mechanical engineer working on the project. From a design-layout perspective, this need to separate the functions is usually addresses by locating the service drop-off drive between the two buildings creating a 100% outside air buffer between the uses.

When I draw deckplans, this personal bias is always reflected in a significant wall separating Engineering from the rest of the ship (if possible, I prefer about 1 foot or 1/3 meter thick) and often I like to place the fuel tanks between the engineering and crew portions of the ship.

One concern I have about applying building design to spacecraft is the real world environmental loads that may not be present in any degree in space. Here in Florida, for example, each percentage of outside air adds significant dehumidifying and cooling load to the building, windows add significant external heat load and roof color can greatly impact heat gain. With buildings, the outside loads are specific to the location and drive the design of the HVAC to meet local conditions. In some places that means lots of heating (like Baxter, Minnesota) and in other places it means lots of cooling ( like Miami, Florida). In each place, the building is optimized to the local conditions.

A concern in the back of my mind about water ships, is that it could be docked in Miami one month and in Greenland another month, so the ship's HVAC probably needs to be designed across a broader operating range than a building.

So is a Starship more like a Building (with the insulation of vacuum providing a narrower operating range) or more like a nautical ship (with black body radiation providing a broader operating range)? I don't know the answer. I just keep it in the back of my mind as a caveat when I apply Architecture guidelines to starships.
 
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Re Heating/cooling:

In vacuum, heat loss is entirely blackbody radiation. A thermos works by (1) the vacuum barrier and (2) an IR mirror surface on the vacuum bottle.

The loss of heat energy is by temperature and surface area ratio. Temperature determines energy lost per unit surface area; a sphere loses less energy per volume than a box... due to lower ratio of surface to interior volume.

Yes, you'll cool down; noting that apollo 13 took 2 days to get dangerously cold, and was a high surface area to volume ratio by comparison to Traveller ships. (CO2 was a far stronger issue. )

Dude in suit inside ship which is in vacuum is picking up the blackbody radiation from the ship's interior walls. His own goes into the walls. Until the walls are cold, he'll lose less overall due to reradiation.
 
Re Heating/cooling:
The question is closer to this:
Given two identical ships. One in orbit around Venus. The second in orbit around Neptune. Comparing the external heating/cooling loads on each of the ships from the sun/background temperature, how much additional heating or cooling is needed on each ship beyond what is required to cool the internal heat load from the equipment and people inside the ship.

Is the difference between the two ships trivial or significant?

If the solar heat load increases the heating load on the Venus orbit ship by 1% and the lack of solar heat load increases the natural cooling of the Neptune orbit ship by 1%, then a ship requiring 1 ton of HVAC for the internal load would need 1.01 tons of total cooling capacity for a Venus orbit and would run at higher than normal efficiency in Neptine orbit (and require 0.01 tons of emergency heating in case the ship parks in orbit with no internal systems running).

If the solar heat load increases the heating load on the Venus orbit ship by 300% and the lack of solar heat load increases the natural cooling of the Neptune orbit ship by 100%, then a ship requiring 1 ton of HVAC for the internal load would need 4 tons of total cooling capacity for a Venus orbit and could shut off the external radiators in Neptine orbit under normal operating conditions (and require 1 ton of emergency heating in case the ship parks in orbit with no internal systems running).

So the first scenario yields a ship with 1.01 tons of cooling capacity and 0.01 tons of heating capacity, while the second scenario yields a ship with 4 tons of cooling capacity and 1 ton of heating capacity. That is a significant difference.
 
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This is an example of what I mean when I talk about a weak knowledge base - and what Fritz is talking about when he mentions your "changing the basis of your arguments." It would appear I'm wrong about your source of information - you have a marvelous library, I'm envious - but there is nonetheless a weakness in having to depend on external sources instead of professional knowledge.

I recognize what you're doing because I do it myself. I'm a voracious learner, but I'm not a scientist and not a professional except in a few narrow areas (I evaluate medical facilities for the State, and I worked in mental health before that - my degree is in psychology with a minor in sociology - so I'm strong on psychology and sociology, and fair-to-middlin' on medicine, better on healthcare delivery systems and organizational structure). As a result, my knowledge base outside my area of expertise is kind of swiss-cheesy: I know enough to understand the basics, but there are holes that a professional wouldn't have because he's taken the time and effort to study the field systematically instead of in bits and chunks.

So, I put out an idea, and sometimes someone will say, "Oh, no, because X, Y, and Z," and - like you - I run back to those sources I can tap into, find out if what they're saying is right and how it fits in, and walk away with a hole filled and a new understanding of the phenomenon. And then I either have to modify my idea - as you did - or abandon it as untenable. That's actually true of all of us, because we all have our areas of strength and areas of weakness. What we don't do is modify on the fly and then act like that was what we meant in the first place.

As an example, let's recap your post that mentions freezing in space, with a couple of points highlighted by me:

It may well be worthwhile to also look at other ships as well. For instance, the various Scout/Couriers and Free Traders or Far Traders from the various rulesets. To get from the aft (typically machinery) spaces to forward spaces appear to often require going through the same general areas. If one of those areas is compromised/vented to vacuum then there is no longer any air in that space to maintain the warmth. As such, any piping or venting in the walls or overhead may be exposed to the temperatures of space.

As such, it would appear that unless either the pipes and vents, or the internal bulkheads, decks and overhead coverings, are protected to the same level of thermal protection/insulation etc as the outer hull then it is difficult to see how the air and water passing through these spaces and/or in deck deck/overhead structures in way of these spaces would be prevented from changing temperature, and even adjacent spaces, which appear to be separated only by internal bulkhead much thinner than the hull surface.

"As such, any piping or venting in the walls or overhead may be exposed to the temperatures of space."

and

"... unless either the pipes and vents, or the internal bulkheads, decks and overhead coverings, are protected to the same level of thermal protection/insulation etc as the outer hull ..."

To which Aramis pointed out that freezing is not a problem in space.

To defend your original position, you bring up an entirely different phenomenon:

...Actually its my understanding that freezing in space is a problem.

If the hull were ruptured or damaged and one of the internal spaces of the ship is vented to vacuum then that space will begin to drop in temperature and systems moving though those systems will likely be compromised in their usability....

Now, let's understand what's really happening. I mentioned in one of the posts that you can increase air temperature by compressing it. Air temperature can also be reduced by dropping pressure. Energy by its nature likes to be evenly distributed through a mass, so we can safely assume the fund of energy in an air mass is fairly evenly distributed through that mass. What is happening is that some of that energy is heading into space with the escaping air (hissing out into space, in your example), and as the remaining air expands to keep the volume it occupies filled, the remaining energy is likewise occupying a larger and larger volume; there is less energy per unit volume, temperature drops. The temperature in the compartment falls - and yes, surfaces in contact with the cooling air will lose heat to the cooling air.

As the air pressure drops, however, the air becomes less and less effective at carrying away heat - there's just less air interacting with the surfaces. At some point, pressure in the compartment drops too low for conductive heat transfer to occur: there are too few air molecules bumping into the surfaces to carry off much heat from those surfaces. Those surfaces can no longer lose heat by conduction, 'cause there isn't any air left to conduct the heat. They can only lose heat by radiation - and, at room temperature, bodies don't give off much infrared so this is a very slow process. Again, it's why Thermos mugs are so great at keeping your coffee hot.

Note that the "level of thermal protection/insulation etc" of the outer hull is irrelevant to your new observation - as it should be. There is no "cold of space", because there aren't enough molecules in space to carry away heat; any cold in this scenario is an artifact of the pressure drop, but as the pressure drops and the air escapes, the ability to carry away heat drops as well until you are left with ... the Thermos!

In space, there is only your own blackbody radiation. In fact, the "level of thermal protection/insulation etc" of the outer hull serves more to keep you cool than to keep you hot. Hark back to Skylab and the problems they had keeping the place cool after part of their heat shielding tore away during launch: you will pick up much, much more energy from having a local sun shining on your hull (depending of course on how far away you are and how bright the local sun is, but a lot of our activity occurs either in the habitable ring or at the orbit of the Jovians) than you will lose by your own infrared glow.

Similarly, loss of heat to an adjoining compartment that loses atmosphere is not a problem. Once the atmosphere is gone in there, heat loss is limited to the very slow rate permitted by infrared radiation of a room-temperature object. The internal bulkhead wall (which by the way is solid enough to withstand bullets) will feel no cooler than your Thermos bottle does when you pick it up. If that compartment is losing its atmosphere fast - zoom, instant Thermos insulation, and maybe a few dead bodies in there. If it's losing atmosphere slowly (and you can't fix it) then you have time to evacuate the folk inside, and then you purge the remaining atmosphere in there yourself - and again you have the insulating value of vacuum.

I admire your tenacity and your patience, but the diplomatic thing to do when someone points out something you didn't get right is to acknowledge their point. I'm not trying to tell you what to do, but I am trying to suggest that you might get a less negative response that way. Consider the manner in which Atpollard's taking in your data about air changes, and contrast that with your response to Fritz, for an idea of what I'm saying.
 
[m;]Thread closed when it became "Take potshots at posters"[/m;]

If someone's being rude, report it.

3 posts deleted for being about other posters rather than the thread.
 
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