Computer usage

[Willie Dewitt]

In looking at the jump tape thread, I'm realizing there is more to computers and programs In basic ship operations than I thought.

In my current campaign, using basic books for CT, I've been going a bit rules light. One Merch mustered out with a Free Trader, and I made it a used model that came with basic stuff already active. Besides some basics such as an air raft, a vac suit, couple of hard points with one installed with missile launcher, etc. as existing ship equipment (albeit often 20 years old and well used), I assumed basic computer programs (jump, launch, generate, etc and anything that was required by previous owner) into the mix.

Anything that was too overboard, basically things they should expect to have to buy separate, is no big deal. Things are old and could break down. I already had them need to spend a chunk of dough upgrading the launcher to full capacity. I could have any program degrade, such as generate so jump tapes need to be bought. I do love making them spend money :smirk:

OK, any advice there is appreciated. But I think what I need real coaching on is computer use. When the time comes for true shipboard crisis, I want to get it right.

It seems that a Free Trader can only handle a couple programs at a time. But more than a couple could be needed at once. I want to get a handle on it so I can get it right for players and task resolution.

So how do you handle that during an encounter? I imagine the pilot could hit a button and the programs switch out automatically. But in keeping with my description to the players of much tech being almost 70's or 80's in tech level, I could picture a computer operator slapping cartridges in and out of the computer deck like a 1978 8-track DJ, as the ship is piloted, evades, fires rockets, and prepares for jump.

Could I get advice/pointers/clarifications on these (and other points) to help me out on my flavor and task res?

 

[whartung]

In Book 2 combat, there's a specific step that lets the player reprogram their computer at the end of their turn. So basically, whatever is in your computer you're stuck with throughout your opponents turn, and your next turn until you can swap it again. Other than this specific phasing, there's "no cost" to swapping out computer programs.

What isn't clear is when you get down to individual personal combat turns, and how long a swap out may take then.

Mind, the only scenario that comes to mind is if for some reason (say, the pre-jump process), you might need to unload "Anti-hijack" in order to run "Generate". For example, a ship with a Model 2 only has CPU space to run Navigate and Jump-2 at the same time.

So, you can see how an attacker might try to be aware of where the crew is in the flight process and "know" when the Anti-Hijack program will not be running. Now, maybe the attempt will be made and the crew will try to load the program to lock the ship down, and there might be a mad dash to see who gets what done first (or the crew can hit the big red LOCK DOWN button instead, but...).

That's the only event I can think of that may bring in to play the "load" times of programs, outside of ship combat.

 

[BlackBat242]

In refitting our used ships we liked to park a second model 1 or 2 computer in a spare stateroom or corner of the lounge or cargo bay - we would have that one wired into the ship's systems so it would operate the anti-hijack/fire control/ship's library/etc programs, leaving the main computer for the ships' drives and navigation.

It is a moderately trivial task for any skilled person (those with computer-2+ or Electronics-3+ to set up the computers with one acting as a "slave" to the other, so that they share data etc.


Only if the ship is being custom-built to the players' spec could a larger single computer be installed, however, due to space constraints in where the computer is normally located (behind a bulkhead next to the bridge).

 

[Timerover51]

In looking at the jump tape thread, I'm realizing there is more to computers and programs In basic ship operations than I thought.

In my current campaign, using basic books for CT, I've been going a bit rules light. One Merch mustered out with a Free Trader, and I made it a used model that came with basic stuff already active. Besides some basics such as an air raft, a vac suit, couple of hard points with one installed with missile launcher, etc. as existing ship equipment (albeit often 20 years old and well used), I assumed basic computer programs (jump, launch, generate, etc and anything that was required by previous owner) into the mix.

Anything that was too overboard, basically things they should expect to have to buy separate, is no big deal. Things are old and could break down. I already had them need to spend a chunk of dough upgrading the launcher to full capacity. I could have any program degrade, such as generate so jump tapes need to be bought. I do love making them spend money :smirk:

OK, any advice there is appreciated. But I think what I need real coaching on is computer use. When the time comes for true shipboard crisis, I want to get it right.

It seems that a Free Trader can only handle a couple programs at a time. But more than a couple could be needed at once. I want to get a handle on it so I can get it right for players and task resolution.

So how do you handle that during an encounter? I imagine the pilot could hit a button and the programs switch out automatically. But in keeping with my description to the players of much tech being almost 70's or 80's in tech level, I could picture a computer operator slapping cartridges in and out of the computer deck like a 1978 8-track DJ, as the ship is piloted, evades, fires rockets, and prepares for jump.

Could I get advice/pointers/clarifications on these (and other points) to help me out on my flavor and task res?

I basically disregard the computer rules in Classic (I have the LBB in hardcopy and on computer, Starter Edition (ditto), and The Traveller Book in hard copy) as hopelessly obsolete. My home rules are the costs reduced by a factor of 100 for Model 2 on up, with ships being equipped with Model 7, cost 0.8 Million Credits, space of 0.1 ton (effectively assumed to be included in the Bridge Space), with capacity multiplied by 10. Model 7 available at Tech Level 9, everything else at Tech Level 8. The cost of computer programs is also reduced by a factor of 10.

If you do not want to totally jettison the computer rules, then increase the computer capacity by a factor of 10, reduce tonnage requirements to 1, and drop programming costs by a factor of 10. Drop the cost of the computer by a factor of 10 as well.

 

[infojunky]

1st go read the combat section closely. The bigger a computer you have means more active/running programs plus more in Active storage. Programs on the computer can be switched out as needed with each phase of the turn if they are loaded in storage.

The programming phase is to switch out what is loaded on the computer, most notably ships with small computers or BIS models need to change out much more often than larger models.

Also read the Software section, programs can stack unless it specifically says otherwise.

 

[infojunky]

I basically disregard the computer rules in Classic (I have the LBB in hardcopy and on computer, Starter Edition (ditto), and The Traveller Book in hard copy) as hopelessly obsolete.

So why do you say this? I hear this trope a lot, but no explanation for it...

 

[Timerover51]

So why do you say this? I hear this trope a lot, but no explanation for it...

Marc was writing the initial rules before the advent of the personal computer and development of the microprocessor. When I had my first computer class in 1969, I was working on a IBM 1401, using punch cards, that took up most of the space inside of a 20 foot by 20 foot room. That is close to the Model 1 or 2 computers in the Classic ship design sequence. A Cray supercomputer in 1982 was about a cubic meter in size, and ran several million dollars. The original Toy Story in 1995 required a Terabyte of storage, costing about 2 million dollars at the time. In 1993, IBM 486 processor computers were on the restricted sales list.

Fast forward to now. The computer I am using to type this is only marginally slower than a Cray, and it is nowhere near the top of the line for even personal computers, is the size of a hard cover book, and cost $700 dollars. My wife's laptop is about the same capability as a Cray, is a laptop, and cost $1100 when purchased for her for Christmas. Note, it is a LAPTOP. I can now buy a terabyte external drive for less than $100.

In 1990, I thought that a 80-megabyte hard drive with 16 megabytes of RAM for my first Mac was enormous. Current hard drives start at about 500 Gigabytes and go up, while RAM can start at 4 Gigabytes and go up from there.

Since Marc was writing this, computer capacity, even for the personal computers, has increased by a factor of 1000 in many cases, while costs have dropped to incredibly low levels. My first Mac was a box roughly 15 inches square and 4 inches thick. My daughter's iPhone is far superior to it in every way except display. Between the Mod 1 computer and the Mod 7 computer, capacity increases by a factor of about 10, volume increases by 9, and costs increases by 40.

Figure the Mod 1, at Tech Level 5, is the ENIAC. Compare that to a current laptop or tablet. The difference in capability is far greater than the distance between the Mod 1 and the Mod 7.

As this is the current state of the art in computers, I simply ignore the computer rules.

EDIT NOTE: When I went on active duty as a US Army officer in 1975, the Army had just spent a quarter of a billion Dollars developing the FADAC artillery fire control computer, and was beginning to field it. That same year, Texas Instruments came out with the programmable TI-59 calculator, priced at $700. Someone at Fort Sill, the artillery school, wrote a ballistics program for it that resulted in superior accuracy over the brand-new FADAC. The filed artillery got TI-59 calculators with the ballistics module plugged in, while the FADACs went to storage warehouses and then salvage.

I figure that my Mac Mini is superior to a Mod 7, based on the comparison between its capability and the ENIAC.

 

[infojunky]

Marc was writing the initial rules before the advent of the personal computer and development of the microprocessor. When I had my first computer class in 1969, I was working on a IBM 1401, using punch cards, that took up most of the space inside of a 20 foot by 20 foot room. That is close to the Model 1 or 2 computers in the Classic ship design sequence. A Cray supercomputer in 1982 was about a cubic meter in size, and ran several million dollars. The original Toy Story in 1995 required a Terabyte of storage, costing about 2 million dollars at the time. In 1993, IBM 486 processor computers were on the restricted sales list.

Fast forward to now. The computer I am using to type this is only marginally slower than a Cray, and it is nowhere near the top of the line for even personal computers, is the size of a hard cover book, and cost $700 dollars. My wife's laptop is about the same capability as a Cray, is a laptop, and cost $1100 when purchased for her for Christmas. Note, it is a LAPTOP. I can now buy a terabyte external drive for less than $100.

In 1990, I thought that a 80-megabyte hard drive with 16 megabytes of RAM for my first Mac was enormous. Current hard drives start at about 500 Gigabytes and go up, while RAM can start at 4 Gigabytes and go up from there.

Since Marc was writing this, computer capacity, even for the personal computers, has increased by a factor of 1000 in many cases, while costs have dropped to incredibly low levels. My first Mac was a box roughly 15 inches square and 4 inches thick. My daughter's iPhone is far superior to it in every way except display. Between the Mod 1 computer and the Mod 7 computer, capacity increases by a factor of about 10, volume increases by 9, and costs increases by 40.

Figure the Mod 1, at Tech Level 5, is the ENIAC. Compare that to a current laptop or tablet. The difference in capability is far greater than the distance between the Mod 1 and the Mod 7.

As this is the current state of the art in computers, I simply ignore the computer rules.

Cool, I wasn't looking for a fight, just a explict rational.

My problem with CT computers is more of one of Software, a lot of the Software being driven by a central computer isn't. In a lot of places it could be a embedded computer driving specialized hardware, but you would still need the specialized Hardware.

My fast and dirty fix is change the name from Computer to Electronics package and then use the comparative system a'la High Guard/Mayday simplified system.

 

[mike wightman]

Try running an n-body resolution on a laptop and see how long it takes.

Then try running an n-body multidimensional problem such as would be needed by a jump program.

Oh, and while you are at it make sure that laptop is running a nuclear power station, an air traffic control system and an artificial gravity and acceleration compensation system, not to mention full environmental control and recycling.

 

[Timerover51]

Cool, I wasn't looking for a fight, just a explict rational.

My apologies for coming across so strong. I have just been able to see the incredible development of computers during the past 45 years.

My problem with CT computers is more of one of Software, a lot of the Software being driven by a central computer isn't. In a lot of places it could be a embedded computer driving specialized hardware, but you would still need the specialized Hardware.

My fast and dirty fix is change the name from Computer to Electronics package and then use the comparative system a'la High Guard/Mayday simplified system.

That is quite reasonable. Go with what feels right to you.

 

[aramis]

Marc was writing the initial rules before the advent of the personal computer and development of the microprocessor. When I had my first computer class in 1969, I was working on a IBM 1401, using punch cards, that took up most of the space inside of a 20 foot by 20 foot room.

Marc was writring in 1976-77. That is NOT before the microprocessor. The Zilog Z-80 was out in 1976. The first microprocessor design I can find info on was 1969.

By 1977, I was aware of microprocessor devices. I even owned a few. I was 7...

The Apple I was 1976, the MITS Altair-8800 was 1975...
and both were advertized in 1976 editions of Popular Mechanics, Popular Science, and Scientific American. (Note that the prices for many personal goods in CT are direct matches to adverts in 1976 issues of PM and PS.)

I have good reason to suspect that it wasn't a lack of knowledge as a simple oversight as to the potential impact. Moore's law was coined in 1965, but was NOT part of common consciousness really until the 80's. (And failed about 2012.)

Even into the early 1980's, the real work was done on mainframes. It wasn't until the early to mid 1980's that desktop computing really started into doing real work - the advent of (very early) home automation, the migration to solid-state everything (as opposed to the late 70's still being largely tube-driven). Even the mid-80's superman III still had the primary computing using mainframes, and people accepted that as the way of things.

When I hit college (1988), ALL the state university system's primary computing work was done on 6 mainframes. 1 for SIRO (@ UAF, connect via network to UAF), 3 for general use (1 ea @ UAA, UAF, UASE), 1 for math use at UAA, and 1 for payroll use. The VAX was still in use up through 1998... but was in student use at least as early as 1981 - because my mother had me on her vax account entering data into SPSS... Math and computer majors at the time were still using punch cards - and some of them hired the geeky kid to punch their cards for them while they were in class; those cards were being run on a Honeywell mainframe. I got anywhere from $0.05 to $0.25 per accurate card. Paid for my copy of D&D Basic that way. And dice.

 

[kilemall]

The computer model in CT is actually a pretty good simulation of what most larger computers did back then, run in partitioned mode, each partition effectively a virtual single program machine with it's own dedicated resources.

The computer I learned on and operated would effectively be a Model/1 bis plus, effectively 4 programs could run with 2 additional partitions for printing or relatively simple backup programs. And yes effectively I 'reprogrammed' the computer by ending and starting up new programs, and could prioritize them by memory assignment and CPU resources.

640K assignable, 384K OS, I want to say 1 to 4 Mhz processor.

So I guess that's why I am particularly comfortable with the system, was even back then dreaming of virtual machines and we worked out the required system resources for digital music sometime in the mid-80s.

 

[kilemall]

Anyway, to doing it right.

If you are going to stick to the rules religiously, and it's a Model/1 like on a Free Trader, then you've got a basic set of programs that your players will want to have loaded depending on their situation.

2/4, so a typical transit to/from jump operations setup might be

Maneuver, Anti-Hijack default CPU, Auto/Evade, Return Fire, Launch, Target in storage. Or perhaps Anti-Missile in place of RF and LA if the known opposition is missile happy and close.

Launch assumes either a missile rack or a sandcaster, ignore if the ship has neither.

Jump prep, probably swap out RF or LA for Generate. Then, swap in Jump-1 and Navigation the next reprogramming phase.

One trick to avoid the Anti-Hijack penalty is swap out Maneuver during the Generate turn. However, actual jump requires Jump-1 and Navigation, so there WILL be a moment of vulnerability there.

For combat, the default above is a pretty good mix if you are not sure of your passengers. If you want to risk it, you could forego Anti-Hijack altogether and run Predict-1 or Gunner Interact, whichever will give you a higher DM.

A Model/1 bis is a bit different proposition, 4/0, designed more to allow the cheapest Jump-2 possible or a bit more combat optimization but fewer overall options.

Regular ops- Maneuver, Auto/Evade, Launch or Return Fire, Target

Generate- Maneuver, Auto/Evade, Generate, Launch or Target

Jump 1- Jump-1, Navigation, Maneuver, Auto/Evade

Jump 2- Jump-2, Navigation, Maneuver

Desperate Missile Defense- Maneuver, ECM

Measured Missile Defense- Maneuver, Anti-Missile, Launch or Target

All Offensive Laser- Maneuver, Target, Gunner Interact/Predict-1 or Predict-2 or Return Fire/Predict-1


It occurs to me that another option might be to allow a 'fast jump' if Generate, Navigation and the Jump program are loaded at the same time- may be key resource decision for the fast getaway, but risking damage due to no evade or defensive programs.


As for Anti-hijack, I wouldn't concern myself terribly with the 'phasing' of when it's not in CPU- IMO it would be what used to be called a 'background' or low priority process. As long as it's on the machine, IMO it would snap to the foreground priority the moment hijackers made their move, run for 15 seconds doing whatever, then go back to sleep until needed again.

If you feel the need to interrupt player phasing, screwing up something they are doing, randomly determine which phase and have the firing/anti-missile/ECM/generate fail.

 

[kilemall]

Consider the computers in CT as the primary way you 'hop up' or tweak the performance of the player's ship.

A Model/4 computer for instance will allow a massive amount of Predict/Evade/AM/ECM advantages, all running at the same time, and if Double Fire is possible, that's doubling the ship's firepower.

The elegance of putting it all on the computer meant ultimately a much simpler engineering set of rules while having a cost soak to pull off all those speculative bucks into equipment/programming that doesn't require a fullbore shipyard redo. So don't ignore the game system uses of this subsystem of play.

 

[kilemall]

Marc was writing the initial rules before the advent of the personal computer and development of the microprocessor. When I had my first computer class in 1969, I was working on a IBM 1401, using punch cards, that took up most of the space inside of a 20 foot by 20 foot room. That is close to the Model 1 or 2 computers in the Classic ship design sequence. A Cray supercomputer in 1982 was about a cubic meter in size, and ran several million dollars. The original Toy Story in 1995 required a Terabyte of storage, costing about 2 million dollars at the time. In 1993, IBM 486 processor computers were on the restricted sales list.

Fast forward to now. The computer I am using to type this is only marginally slower than a Cray, and it is nowhere near the top of the line for even personal computers, is the size of a hard cover book, and cost $700 dollars. My wife's laptop is about the same capability as a Cray, is a laptop, and cost $1100 when purchased for her for Christmas. Note, it is a LAPTOP. I can now buy a terabyte external drive for less than $100.

In 1990, I thought that a 80-megabyte hard drive with 16 megabytes of RAM for my first Mac was enormous. Current hard drives start at about 500 Gigabytes and go up, while RAM can start at 4 Gigabytes and go up from there.

Since Marc was writing this, computer capacity, even for the personal computers, has increased by a factor of 1000 in many cases, while costs have dropped to incredibly low levels. My first Mac was a box roughly 15 inches square and 4 inches thick. My daughter's iPhone is far superior to it in every way except display. Between the Mod 1 computer and the Mod 7 computer, capacity increases by a factor of about 10, volume increases by 9, and costs increases by 40.

Figure the Mod 1, at Tech Level 5, is the ENIAC. Compare that to a current laptop or tablet. The difference in capability is far greater than the distance between the Mod 1 and the Mod 7.

As this is the current state of the art in computers, I simply ignore the computer rules.

EDIT NOTE: When I went on active duty as a US Army officer in 1975, the Army had just spent a quarter of a billion Dollars developing the FADAC artillery fire control computer, and was beginning to field it. That same year, Texas Instruments came out with the programmable TI-59 calculator, priced at $700. Someone at Fort Sill, the artillery school, wrote a ballistics program for it that resulted in superior accuracy over the brand-new FADAC. The filed artillery got TI-59 calculators with the ballistics module plugged in, while the FADACs went to storage warehouses and then salvage.

I figure that my Mac Mini is superior to a Mod 7, based on the comparison between its capability and the ENIAC.

I agree, but went a different direction with it. Rather then post the whole series, which is many rather large posts, people can click on these if they are interested-

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=508291&postcount=38

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=508291&postcount=39

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=508291&postcount=41

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=508291&postcount=42

 

[Willie Dewitt]

:

I like the idea of oldish tech operating certain straightforward systems. With empires rising and falling, some tech is high and wild sci fi, some exists in that 1970's place of being familiar but satisfactory in performance, much like basic weapons like rifles are. Computer software, for systems like a Free Trader needs, might be just as served by a cartridge (with disk and not tape inside) as it might a CD as we know it. Simple and easy means non-computer folk can use it. Slap the cartridge in, and it does it's thing.

OK, and also, I like the idea of the computer expert having more to do during time of crisis. Maybe switching programs is something pilot can do, but having computer person manually installing cartridges gives them a fun mini-game and chance to get it running faster. Make rolls to deftly insert and punch up utilities.

 

[aramis]

:

I like the idea of oldish tech operating certain straightforward systems. With empires rising and falling, some tech is high and wild sci fi, some exists in that 1970's place of being familiar but satisfactory in performance, much like basic weapons like rifles are. Computer software, for systems like a Free Trader needs, might be just as served by a cartridge (with disk and not tape inside) as it might a CD as we know it. Simple and easy means non-computer folk can use it. Slap the cartridge in, and it does it's thing.

OK, and also, I like the idea of the computer expert having more to do during time of crisis. Maybe switching programs is something pilot can do, but having computer person manually installing cartridges gives them a fun mini-game and chance to get it running faster. Make rolls to deftly insert and punch up utilities.

A jump cassette might even be just a really big Thumb Drive...

The tonnages given in CT are really pretty solid for mainframes, up until the turn of the century. Now, the largest mainframes I can find available new are the IBM Z13 10 to 141 core CPU single large cabinet. It's a beast of a machine. The FAQ alone is 128 pages...
It's even got an option for water cooling. The N20 peaks at more than 7e9 MIPS. Yeah, 7 GigaMIPS.

Figure it at 1Td.

Large scale data centers still exist using racks of commercially inexpensive 4-core server-rack-mount PC's in Beowulf clusters, and more expensive rackmount major servers that are still, per enclosure, going to be somewhat less powerful than beasts like the Z13. Worse, think about beowulf clustering these bad-boys. (They probably pretty easily can be clustered - they have a RedHat OS option!)

 

[Condottiere]

I think more like ROMed mini CDs , that may or may not self destruct.

 

[kilemall]

Don't forget, these things aren't in a cushy climate controlled datacenter, they are 'out at sea/in the air' taking rough bounces, power overloads, scads of rads, etc. before they go offline.

Using pure CT hit rules your power plant is likelier to be slagged before your ship computer goes offline.

So I continue to excuse the CT computer high end costs, power and sizes by reasoning that these boxes are more like an integrated all-in-one engineering plant/fire control/helm control/security system that can survive carrier landings and near direct nuclear hits.

Which is pretty impressive if you think about it.

Would you want your Aegis cruiser dependent on a commodity Windows server? Oh wait, not really.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Yorktown_(CG-48)#Smart_ship_testbed


And Aramis, yes the IBM mainframes are smallish compared to their previous room filling size, but the box itself is worthless without large storage arrays and datacomm equipment, all of which can be quite larger then the mainframe itself.

 

[BlackBat242]

Or your SSBNs in 2016 running on a legacy Windows system?
http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a19061/britains-doomsday-subs-run-windows-xp/