Computers

[Badenov]

So I was thinking about computers as they relate to shipbuilding, and how they compared to RL contemporary computers. But the shipboard computers contemporary with the writing of CT were things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Tactical_Data_System. These computer systems are huge and do take a whole room to themselves, so I was thinking that rather than a single monolithic 26-ton computer, a 9fib computer might be several smaller boxes in a 26-ton computer room. Alternately, this could be a Combat Information Center-type room, and be crewed (in shifts) by all the petty officers and officers required by the game (30% and 10% of the number of actual gunners) that don't have actual tasking in the game. That would enable a commander to issue all his orders directly to controllers that would direct the engagement of weapons.

The smallest computers, at 1 ton, don't get a room of their own (unless it's in a closet), but a console on the bridge (which is there on any ship with weapons anyhow, so the skipper can see what's going on) seems like an appropriate representation for a very small computer. I don't know how small tactical computers are now in RL, but I imagine that the complexity of the computers means that the miniaturization is offset by a vast increase in processing capability, resulting in the net increase in size. The best computer at TL7, the 2fib, only occupies 4 tons. That's the size of 2 military staterooms or 1 normal stateroom. So, I'm imagining how much a computer made up of a few units that filled a stateroom could do. Obviously, contemporary computers don't calculate jump routes, but a computer of that size theoretically can plot up to Jump 2.

This is all just speculative, of course, but it makes sense to me, and fills in some of the conceptual gaps I'd been feeling when trying to reconcile crew requirements in the various versions of traveller with how ships are crewed normally.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Thinking of small craft/big craft computers in terms of phone/tablet/desktop sizes is the wrong starting point.
The model/1+ computers used in LBB2/LBB5 et al. are really SERVER RACKS type of "mainframe" stuff.

You want to start with the assumption of "supercomputers" and work your way up from there.
The types of computing power that often times will have dedicated compartment spaces (not always, granted, but reasonably often).

Basically start with the notion of an IT Datacenter Server Room (complete with environmental control) as your starting point for how much compute power is needed for small craft/big craft, rather than thinking in terms of "portable" computing, such as a desktop or a laptop computer. The advantage of doing so is that you immediately start thinking in terms of Server Rack Cabinet(s) ... usually plural ... in order to achieve the amount of compute power needed to represent a model/1+ computer.

And for reference, a historical example of a (prototype) TL=5 model/1 mainframe computer would be the IBM 7090 DPS mainframe that was featured in the 2016 film Hidden Figures (and didn't need to be "compacted" down to fit inside of a spacecraft, I would add).

Yes, compared to the "computers" of 1977, today's portable computing technology is akin to Star Trek magic ... but for applications in space for manned craft in a Traveller universe, you aren't going to be using a "laptop" as your model/1+ computer. You can get away with using a (zero tonnage) "laptop" sized computer in a small craft that has a bridge but "no computer" ... but you AREN'T going to be able to get away with using anything smaller than 1 server rack cabinet in a big craft application.

Needless to say, higher model numbers use more server rack cabinets than just 1 ... and they put them into controlled environment compartments (for damage control and waste heat exhaust reasons, among others). Higher end model # computers have more in common with high end dedicated data center server rooms on industrial scale than they do with laptop/desktop computing for personal use, in the context of Traveller, when it comes to the topic of starship design.

 

[Condottiere]

The one possible uncertainty is calculating jumps.

And going by the given tables, that looks relatively cheap and simple compared to other computer programmes.

So, you'd need a complete revision on that particular aspect of ship design.

 

[mike wightman]

Or the other programs are more complex than their simple name suggests...
maneuver could have to model the interaction between the pseudogravitic field of the m-drive and every particle in the ship...

 

[Badenov]

The one possible uncertainty is calculating jumps.

And going by the given tables, that looks relatively cheap and simple compared to other computer programmes.

So, you'd need a complete revision on that particular aspect of ship design.

Well, I'm really just imagining narrative that justifies the current tables , I have no plan on revising numbers. I have no way to guess how much server is needed to plot a Jump 2 (or Jump Anything), so the book numbers are fine.

 

[whulorigan]

If you are specifically looking at CT / HG, one of the things that has been suggested before is that the "Computer" can be considered to include ALL of the Electronics and their associated hardware (including sensors, communications, countermeasures, antenna arrays, etc) since these are not specified in design sequences in either Book 2 or HG.

 

[Badenov]

If you are specifically looking at CT / HG, one of the things that has been suggested before is that the "Computer" can be considered to include ALL of the Electronics and their associated hardware (including sensors, communications, countermeasures, antenna arrays, etc) since these are not specified in design sequences in either Book 2 or HG.

I completely concur with this, and feel that this interpretation is strongly supported by the 'relative computer size' DM to hit. This also lends itself to the computer space being analogous to the CIC in modern wet navy ships.

 

[Condottiere]

That would be relative to capability and technological level.

 

[PVernon]

A Note ( or a series of notes );
* The computer size will also include disk arrays, network stuff, human access to make repairs, cooling systems (as noted above).
* In the 1960s it took 4 months to do all of the calculations to go from the Earth to the Moon on 3 IBM Computers. In Traveller those calculations are done on the fly by a small crafts control panel. Not even a computer.
* A jump takes 10 min to calculate by the rules. That calculation takes into account the location and future location of all objects in both systems, and the space between them, that are of similar size to the jumping ship. That is a lot of data!

I, (as a retired data center manager) have no problems with Traveller computers and their sizes.

 

[Condottiere]

Sensors are separate, arrays or otherwise.

Disk arrays are likely solid state.

 

[kilemall]

Sensors are separate, arrays or otherwise.

Disk arrays are likely solid state.

They are in later versions, not in CT.

Solid state perhaps for base models, fib models IMO would be optical boards/laser cubes aka HAL or Expanse electronics.

 

[Badenov]

Sensors are separate, arrays or otherwise.

Disk arrays are likely solid state.

I hesitate to predict past TL 8 or 9 what things might be made of. The whole point of the future is things we haven't even imagined how to achieve yet.

 

[kilemall]

If you are specifically looking at CT / HG, one of the things that has been suggested before is that the "Computer" can be considered to include ALL of the Electronics and their associated hardware (including sensors, communications, countermeasures, antenna arrays, etc) since these are not specified in design sequences in either Book 2 or HG.

I go this way too, and further go into a bifurcated damage system- like LBB2 for originally installed computers and HG model number level for add ons. That’s because I envision the installed computers are spread around the ship in nodes, hence their relative reliability and difficulty to knock out.

 

[Takei]

If you are specifically looking at CT / HG, one of the things that has been suggested before is that the "Computer" can be considered to include ALL of the Electronics and their associated hardware (including sensors, communications, countermeasures, antenna arrays, etc) since these are not specified in design sequences in either Book 2 or HG.

It might have been suggested, but to quote LBB2:
A. The Bridge: All starships must allocate 20 tons displacement for basic controls,
which include guidance radars, drive and power plant controls, communications
equipment, and other devices required for proper control of the ship. Basic
controls cost CR 500,000 per 100 tons of hull mass displacement.
And LBB5 says:
The Bridge: Every ship requires a bridge for control of the drives and electronics
and for navigation. Such a bridge (designated as the main bridge or prime bridge)
requires 2% of the ship's tonnage (minimum: 20 tons) at a cost of Cr5,000 per
ton of ship.

So everything needed to control a ship is already included in the bridge tonnage. Small craft don't need a computer and only seem to add one to increase their combat performance. Even starships only really seem to use a computer for combat (if you ignore the Jump programs). LBB5 doesn't even use programs.

Computers are one of Traveller's sacred cows we don't seem to be able to let go of. My preference is to get rid of them completely. If you want to fight a ship then use the same stats as computers but call them something different (IIRC TNE called them Master Fire Directors?) and say they're an extension to the bridge.

 

[mike wightman]

So why do you need a computer at all if all those basic controls are there?
Why does an inoperative computer prevent you from using all those basic controls?

There is something we are not being told.

 

[Enoki]

Another point here is how you design the computer system. If there isn't a "central" computer aboard the ship, you could have many much smaller ones scattered throughout it doing specialized jobs and even not connected to some networked system. There's also the issue of time versus results to consider. If you can spend more time getting results you likely need much less computer.
The same is true of systems that are designed to be specialized in doing some function or another.

 

[Takei]

So why do you need a computer at all if all those basic controls are there?
Why does an inoperative computer prevent you from using all those basic controls?

There is something we are not being told.

The same thought hit me when I was re-reading my LBBs a number of years back.

I'm leaning towards, computers were added to give the players something else to tinker with in the game

 

[Condottiere]

1. ChatGPT.

2. Solitaire.

 

[Spinward Flow]

I'm leaning towards, computers were added to give the players something else to tinker with in the game

It's basically "yet another vector" on the upgrade path(s) in starship designs.

 

[atpollard]

So why do you need a computer at all if all those basic controls are there?
Why does an inoperative computer prevent you from using all those basic controls?

There is something we are not being told.

I wonder if it is like the controls in an Aircraft.

1. You can install analog/digital controls in a cockpit to control a plane.
2. You can add a Fly-by-wire computer system between those controls and the actual airplane components

[1] is a cockpit/bridge
[2] is a cockpit/bridge AND computer.

[2] will provide better performance than [1] unless the computer stops working, then those cockpit/bridge controls in [2] are not talking to the ship any more.