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- Thread starter Garyius2003
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Rhialto the Marvelous
SOC-13
That would be me, except I will buy 4E so that I might rant about its suckiness from an informed position.
Of course all this is only very peripherally related to Mongoose Traveller
There is a relation, in the sense that Hunter's next scifi project, which will be d20ish if I get this right, might cater to what by that time would be the 3.x grognard market.
OK, it's a stretch.
casquilho
SOC-13
I agree. Other then saying MGT does have a future without being d20, the whole d20 angle is OT for the forum.Of course all this is only very peripherally related to Mongoose Traveller
Daniel
chshrkt
SOC-12
There, fixed... hehehe
I will do as I have done for every other version of Traveller whose core rules I don't use... buy the supplement/source books.
I think it's an illness, but I can't be bothered to get therapy for it.
I think it's an illness, but I can't be bothered to get therapy for it.
...and it is cheaper than smoking, drinking or therapy.
Aramis,
Go to your FLGS and count how many computer games are MS based and how many paper & pencil RPG games are d20 based. Then count how many of the same are based on other systems. What kind of numbers did you get?
Yeah, there's some churn in the shallow end. The vast majority of either game are MS and/or d20 based. As far as the general public is concerned, they've won. There always will be a few cognoscenti using other systems, but the general public will either use MS & d20 or systems derived from MS & d20 because those are the systems they are familiar with.
Home computing is going to become a utility in the next decade, like electricity. The general public are tired of having to buy a new system every 18 months, tired of trying to install new programs, tired of keeping up the latest virus protection needs, tired of it all. It's going to be "outsourced". They'll have a RAM box, a monitor, and keyboard, and a "fat pipe" connected to some near-super computer their ISP owns, protects, upgrades, and maintains.
A few of us will still own personal computers - not PCs mind you, personal computers - but the great majority are going to shift to the 21st Century version of mainframe-work station because it's less bother.
You set the hurdle as low as you want. People are going to use what is familiar to them, familiar means what they use at work, and that means MS. When the shift to utility-style home computing kicks off, ISPs are going to keep the end user's experience "MS-like" no matter what their techs are using.
The end result of changing from MS to Apple has been a better experience for over twenty years and Apple's share is still pathetic.
Retraining? Hardly, maybe 2 in 100 people using a keyboard either speed type or type wihtout looking at the keys. We're not all secretarial school grads and we don't center over the home row before typing away. I took typing my senior year in HS over 30 years ago just to fill my schedule and I never used all that I learned.
People use QWERTY for no other reason than it is what is familiar. You can download a free apps all over the 'net to change you keyboard, you can even do it "inside" your machine, and not 1 in 100,000 even bothers.
Speed has been a mismeasure ever since mechanical keys were replaced by a type ball and dvorak's claims for speed rest on all of one study done by the US Dept. of the Navy during WW2. That study was conducted by someone called Lt. Dvorak by the way.
That's like saying Vista isn't really XP, XP wasn't really W2000, W2000 wasn't really W98, etc. etc. etc. Windows is Windows and d20 is d20, the basic ideas remain the same.
Systems matter to folks like you and me, but we're not your average RPG gamers. The average player is young, in school, and is playing some WOTC product.
Being in stores matters more than anything else and just which product is your FLGS going to stock? Something from a small publisher or something from Hasbro?
All I'm pointing out is that economics are going to make the decision here. Our opinions about the RTT RPG system are of no consequence. It will most likely find a minor niche, most people playing Traveller will not switch to it, and most will simply plunder the setting materials for their own RPG systems.
Have fun,
Bill
P.S. Folks might find The Economist's obituary for Gary Gygax interesting. It's here Check out the first paragraph under "Triumph of the Nerds" and read his opinion of WOTC and the d20 style of gaming.
The d20 vs [everything else] debate is like debating the importance of the sliderule vs the mechanical adding machine in a world dominated by electronic calculators.
This quote from the article referenced at the end of Whipsnade's post [above] shows where pencil and paper RPGs have really gone. We non-electronic RPGers will soon qualify for the SCA.
This quote from the article referenced at the end of Whipsnade's post [above] shows where pencil and paper RPGs have really gone. We non-electronic RPGers will soon qualify for the SCA.
Look HERE
There are 4743 items for the d20/OGL 3rd Ed Game System.
There are 154 items for all versions of Traveller.
... and Traveller did better than a lot of other game systems.
casquilho
SOC-13
Bill: In my FLGS: d20 is about 10% of the shelf space for games. WW is closer to 30%, and WFRP 2, GURPS and Paladium each such up about 20%.
And it's been that way for years.
As for games: Games are not the market for OS's.
I've no problem finding excellent games for the Mac. Nor for Linux.
What I don't see are crappy 1st person shooters that could be mistaken for other 1st person shooters.
Markets are dynamic by time and place. Locally, MoTrav is likely to do fairly well... since the market is diverse, and T20 and GT flew off the shelves.
And it's been that way for years.
As for games: Games are not the market for OS's.
I've no problem finding excellent games for the Mac. Nor for Linux.
What I don't see are crappy 1st person shooters that could be mistaken for other 1st person shooters.
Markets are dynamic by time and place. Locally, MoTrav is likely to do fairly well... since the market is diverse, and T20 and GT flew off the shelves.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
I don't think that I buy the notion that the d20 system is dominant. It is, probably, the system of choice for a majority of gamers. But I'm not at all convinced that it has any inherent superiority over many competing systems. Granted, popularity counts a lot. But D&D has *always* had the largest market share, yet hundreds of RPGs have been published over the last 30 years.
Personally, while I liked the idea of D20, I found the implementation to be clumsy. It's mediocre at best, and when weighed down with hundreds of poorly considered rules additions (and even with some well-conceived ones), the system collapses. IMHO of course.
The d20 system succeeded, IMHO, because it more or less freed designers from coming up with a system *and* a universe. Not because it was necessarily a better game system (however you define that term).
So I think that there is plenty of room for non-D20 mechanics. I'm looking forward to Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying, for instance. *That* system could be a contender... I've also always felt that there was a market for a refined and updated version of CT (and MT wasn't it IMHO).
Unfortunately for Traveller fans, MGT appears to me to be a poorly conceived, badly implemented bundle of dubious mechanics that have been shoehorned into MM's T5 system. Judging from the playtest rules, of course. And while its possible that Mongoose could have fixed this mess in the month or so between playtest ending and the game going to press, I am deeply skeptical. Seems very unlikely to me that they would make relatively little progress in 3 (?) months of public playtesting (after presumably months of private playtesting), then suddenly get it all together in a month.
Personally, while I liked the idea of D20, I found the implementation to be clumsy. It's mediocre at best, and when weighed down with hundreds of poorly considered rules additions (and even with some well-conceived ones), the system collapses. IMHO of course.
The d20 system succeeded, IMHO, because it more or less freed designers from coming up with a system *and* a universe. Not because it was necessarily a better game system (however you define that term).
So I think that there is plenty of room for non-D20 mechanics. I'm looking forward to Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying, for instance. *That* system could be a contender... I've also always felt that there was a market for a refined and updated version of CT (and MT wasn't it IMHO).
Unfortunately for Traveller fans, MGT appears to me to be a poorly conceived, badly implemented bundle of dubious mechanics that have been shoehorned into MM's T5 system. Judging from the playtest rules, of course. And while its possible that Mongoose could have fixed this mess in the month or so between playtest ending and the game going to press, I am deeply skeptical. Seems very unlikely to me that they would make relatively little progress in 3 (?) months of public playtesting (after presumably months of private playtesting), then suddenly get it all together in a month.
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Perhaps they were quietly working on changes all during the playtest (based on customer input), but said nothing publicly out of fear of you.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Perhaps they were quietly working on changes all during the playtest (based on customer input), but said nothing publicly out of fear of you.
Moi? Why, I have no idea what you're talking about
In all seriousness, while it's certainly possible that there was a set of "backup" mechanics being quietly tested, I can't see any reason not to release them to the public playtesters, unless they suddenly went cold on the whole notion of public playtesting.
That's a distinct possibility, I suppose.
Myself, I'm no fan of the public, unstructured "here's the playtest rules, have at 'em" approach. Between those who (a) unconditionally love the system and attack anyone who says otherwise; (b) unconditionally hate the system and attack anyone who says otherwise; and (c) change the playtest rules without disclosing this in their feedback; I'm not real sure that there's that much playtesting benefit to be gained.
That said, a purportedly "public" playtest might produce positive marketing spin (if the game is actually any good), so it might well be a good marketing tool. Of course, if the resulting spin indicates that the game is likely to be badly flawed, then I could certainly understand a company losing enthusiasm for public playtests. But a company that uses public playtesting primarily for marketing gets what it deserves, IMHO.
If I were gonna use a playtest to generate good buzz, I'd (a) be sure that the mechanics are fundamentally sound, statistically; and (b) that the mechanics actually work reasonably. Mongoose failed to do this, IMHO, and I don't think that the playtest generated a net benefit for them.
I'd probably also release the subsystems separately and ask for comments on just those systems. So, I might release the character generation system first and ask playtesters to simply create bunches of characters and run through various skill tasks. Then, a month later, after the character generation system has been worked through and pretty much defined, release a combat system, with the same request -- run through combats and report back.
By isolating the playtesting to discrete systems, I think you'd get the highest quality feedback, since the playtesters are forced to focus on a particular thing. (In the interest of time, I don't see any harm in simultaneously releasing systems that are unrelated -- character generation and world creation for instance).
And if you *do* release a public playtest document, the designer should provide regular feedback in the forum. *Especially* to critics of the system. This does two things -- first, it lets the player know his critiques are being considered and that the designer is trying, in good faith, to build a good game. Second, it prevents fanboys from prematurely leaping to the game's defense and creating a flamewar. (This also keeps the fanboys from being humiliated when the designer abandons the system that they vociferously defended).
The absolute *worst* thing a designer can do IMHO is to release the playtest rules publicly, refuse to respond to legitimate criticism, then arbitrarily lock threads that have gotten heated largely because the designers have not responded to criticisms and allowed fanboys to defend the system. I also would be scrupulously fair in warning both fans and critics about unacceptible behavior. If anything, I'd probably give more rope to the critics because (a) they'll be outnumbered in a normal forum and (b) the purpose of the exercise should be to uncover flaws and correct them. Critics are, uh, critical to that.
BTW, I walk the walk, as anyone who visits the Fistful of TOWs email group can attest. I have *never* banned anyone for being offensive and we have had some epic debates (the "Great Russian Tank War" comes to mind). While it's a small forum, there are over 500 members and a couple of dozen very opinionated gamers. As a game designer, I love those guys, even if I sometimes think that they're crazy. Their nitpicking, grousing and fussing has done nothing but improve my game.
In my opinion, Mongoose's management of their forum indirectly created most of the purported incivility that arose in the MGT forum. I sincerely hope that they learn from this experience.
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The hard thing now is just waiting and knowing nothing about the game except what it is NOT. From the play-test, we know it is NOT 100% CT compatible. From the forum, we know that it is NOT what we saw in the play-test. From ‘Planet Mongoose’ we know that it is ‘done’ and will NOT be available for a month.
So what is there to really talk about concerning Mongoose Traveller?
So what is there to really talk about concerning Mongoose Traveller?
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Lessons learned?
Aramis,
Hmm, those numbers are opposite of what I see at my two nearest FLGS. I'm lucky because I'm near a university so there are a few more store choices, but perhaps that's also why I see a large d20 share? Your FLGS cater to long-time RPGers and mine cater to college students?
Let's call it a rough analogy, shall we? That's all that I meant by it.
Any T20 products lately? How about GT? There may be some future e23 "publications" for GT, but what has really been released for either over the last 24 months when compared to other, active RPG settings?
RTT's RPG system will initially be snapped up by 1) completists and B) people new to and interested in the Traveller setting. After that initial bulge, the only steady sales will be for setting materials as both groups will be translating said materials to the systems they already use. How many of us dropped everything to use T20 or GT and how many of us just kept our various homebrews?
Have fun,
Bill
Tbeard,
As the numbers of Windows OS sales can attest, inherent superiority has nothing to do with either being popular or being the system the choice.
d20 is the 800lb gorilla because it is the latest version of the RPG system the average gamer is familiar with. It's only after you play enough to "exhaust the possibilities" of d20 that you begin to explore other systems, but very few -if any - RPG gamers reach that point.
Most folks play computer-based RPGs anyways and - surprise - they're all D&D derivitives on one level or another.
Have fun,
Bill
