Confused Newb

[Agemegos]

The British Isles Traveller Support group produce a number of useful GM aids in the time-honoured A5 supplement booklet format. One of these, At Close Quarters, is essentially an updated version of the AHL combat rules, but with a bit more complexity/realism.

Agemegos, I'm intrigued by your statement about GURPS Space having a more detailed and realistic SysGen than First In.
I've intended for a while to get a copy of FI for its SysGen, now I'm not sure. I only want to buy one of them, and the systems need to be Traveller compatible as well as detailed and realistic - which would you (or anyone else, please) recommend?

Both systems are by Jon Zeigler. GURPS Space is seven years more recent, and is correspondingly more highly developed. For instance, it takes into account the brightening of stars as they age. The big difference is that GURPS Space has a really ingenious way of dealing with the relationship between gravity, world size, temperature, and atmospheric composition (which is dictated by a mechanism called "Jeans escape"). I consider it a stroke of genius. In that respect, it is the most realistic star system generator around: nothing else touches it. It also has a clever backwards-or-forwards feature, which lets you design the planet you want and then let the system insert it into the star system in a physically realistic place.

However, the system in First In has rules for classifying planets' characteristics to produce Traveller UWPs, and GURPS Space doesn't mention them. It's not hard to work out, if you know what the codes means, but without some sort of Traveller product you won't know what the codes mean.

And I have to say, the system in GURPS Space is more complicated and time-consuming. I ended up designing a spreadsheet to do the calculations for me.

 

[szurkey]

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[Poor Merchant]

Not as much as you might like.



Well, seeing that you are thinking in terms of Traveller as a generic SF RPG rather than of a canonical OTU, I'll point out that GURPS has further support for SF games, even beyond its extensive Traveller materials. There is the GURPS Space genre book (which contains, among other things, a starsystem generation sequence similar to but even more detailed and realistic than that in GURPS Traveller: First In), GURPS Biotech and GURPS Ultra-Tech cover equipment &c. for recent SF (in case you don't want to be stuck with Traveller's '60s SF tech assumptions), and GURPS Spaceships. And there are GURPS sourcebooks for other SF settings, including modern hard-SF Transhuman Space and licensed properties such as GURPS Lensman, GURPS Planet of Adventure, GURPS Prime Directive (Star Trek), etc. etc. etc.

The investment in buying and learning GURPS's basic rules not only gives you access to GURPS Traveller, but also equips you for a plethora of SF, fantasy, and other settings. The same is true to a certain extent in teh case of Traveller HERO.

I'm going back to my roots a little bit with this - when I first bought the ruleset that was all there was (I think Kinunir had come out but there were no other supplements). I like the CT setting but when I'm referring to "my Universe" I mean that we all have our own "take" on how things work in CT - as well as what kind of campaign works for us - so even if I pretty much stick to Canon my Universe is likely to be different to yours in detailed respects. But I have no plans to be a slave to Canon - given how much material there is it seems to me that whatever I do is likely to have someone jumping up and down over something (I may be a Gearhead but I'm not a rivet counter!).

I took the advice of one of you and bought the GURPS set, along with Starships and First In (it seems very odd to me that the add-ons can be downloaded but GURPS Traveller needs to be bought as a book - which may well have to wait until Salute). Apart from the fact that there is an intimidating amount of information in all three the Starships book (which I skimmed last night) seemed very detailed - except that, although they referred to modules for individual areas within the starship, none of the designs seemed to follow this through to the design of deckplans etc. I would have expected that there would be standard layouts of passenger decks, engine rooms etc that would slot into standard hulls at construction - but this didn't seem to be the case from the plans shown in the book. But that is a whole new question.

I think I'm probably going to spend a few days reading the books - which will generate a whole new set of questions.

 

[Agemegos]

I took the advice of one of you and bought the GURPS set, along with Starships and First In (it seems very odd to me that the add-ons can be downloaded but GURPS Traveller needs to be bought as a book

The reason is that Steve Jackson Games is going through two transitions: from GURPS 3rd edition to GURPS 4th edition and from paper to electronic publication of supporting material. And they are busy making money out of a game called Munchkin, which tends to tie up a lot of their staff time. Most of the 3rd ed. stuff is slated to be re-published as PDFs, but they don't have the resources to convert it all at once, and naturally the stuff that is out of print takes a higher priority than which they can still provide in printed form.

 

[Agemegos]

Sorry to sound dim - but how does play by email work?

The GM sends all the players an e-mail describing the situation their characters are in. The players decide what their characters are going to [try to] do, and send e-mails to the GM. The GM decides what actually happens (using the game rules if necessary), and then sends an e-mail to all the players describing what happens and what the new situation is.

It can run rather differently depending on how exactly you handle details: whether the players' declarations of intent are sent to the GM only or to the whole circle; how far ahead and in how much detail players declare their intent, etc. I've never got it to work very well, but some people swear by it.

Playing RPGs by posting to a message board like this one is a bit similar. You can also play using an Internet chat program or by using VOIP conference calls. I have tried all three of those.

Here is an example of a game I tried to run posting to a message-board. E-mail is not much different.

 

[Icosahedron]

Both systems are by Jon Zeigler. GURPS Space is seven years more recent, and is correspondingly more highly developed.
<snip>
And I have to say, the system in GURPS Space is more complicated and time-consuming. I ended up designing a spreadsheet to do the calculations for me.

Thanks for the review, Agemegos, sounds like Gurps Space might be the way to go.
I like spreadsheets; are you a sharing person?

 

[Icosahedron]

Here is an example of a game I tried to run posting to a message-board. E-mail is not much different.

In contrast, my 'procedure' tends to me much more 'laissez-faire', more like a group of mates round a table with beers. People say what they want when they want, but I get the last word. We move on when everyone has had their say.
The threads on my message board are a sort of 'scratchpad', then I write up and post an official narrative as a library file - this is what 'really' happened.

There are a number of dedicated PBEM fora that include gamer-friendly features such as dice-rollers, private communication threads, etc. I haven't moved to one of these since discovering them simply because of the upheaval it would cause to my game.

There are as many different ways of running a PBEM as there are GMs.

Choose a style and location that suits you.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

The reason is that Steve Jackson Games is going through two transitions: from GURPS 3rd edition to GURPS 4th edition and from paper to electronic publication of supporting material. And they are busy making money out of a game called Munchkin, which tends to tie up a lot of their staff time. Most of the 3rd ed. stuff is slated to be re-published as PDFs, but they don't have the resources to convert it all at once, and naturally the stuff that is out of print takes a higher priority than which they can still provide in printed form.

And, they still haven't come out with the Vorkosigan sourcebook......

 

[Agemegos]

And, they still haven't come out with the Vorkosigan sourcebook......

I'm not certain, but I think that in that case the problem is slightly different.

 

[Agemegos]

Thanks for the review, Agemegos, sounds like Gurps Space might be the way to go.
I like spreadsheets; are you a sharing person?

In general, yes. This spreadsheet is sort of stuck at a late beta stage. There are some errata in the formulas for tide heights and tidal braking of the rules as written, and I'm waiting to see how the official corrections turn out before I go to a gold release. I wouldn't like to find my current version on every second hard drive.

 

[Agemegos]

In contrast, my 'procedure' tends to me much more 'laissez-faire', more like a group of mates round a table with beers. People say what they want when they want, but I get the last word. We move on when everyone has had their say.

How wide a range of time zones are your players spread over? In the example I posted I had players in New Zealand, Germany, Iceland, and both coasts of the USA. In a previous attempt, Australia, Malta, both coasts of the USA and Texas.

 

[Icosahedron]

Thanks for the potential offer, Agemegos, I stumbled across the other thread where you were airing the difficulties with Gurps Space. It would probably be a while before I bought a copy anyway, so I'll sit tight for now.
...And I tend to be more of a black hole than a relay station.

My time zones range from L.A. to London, and have previously included Dubai.
This means a conversation can take several days to resolve and the pace is slow, but we all have busy lives so it suits us. The game has been running for two and a half years now (tempus fugit!) Yes, the location and mindset of the players is important in choosing a PBEM style, too.

 

[Poor Merchant]

Well, seeing that you are thinking in terms of Traveller as a generic SF RPG rather than of a canonical OTU

Thanks for all the advice - I spent today rather painfully trying to design a starship!

I've been looking at some of my old material - back in the day I quite happily played a lot of these games without actually looking at whether the canon holds up but looking at some of them these days I'm noticing some glaring holes. My favourite adventure was Leviathan - I quite liked the idea of boldly going where no man had made a profit before. But the area they explored was right next to major worlds within the Imperium so I cannot see how it could fail to already have been visited.

If I were one for canonical OTU where would one go to explore, as the Imperium appears surrounded by known space occupied by someone. The First In supplement includes details of the 3000t Pytheas Exploratory Cruiser "used for long range expeditions outside Imperial space" - but to where?

It appears to me that most of the Imperium's borders are surrounded by space known to someone - I can see electronic eavesdropping missions, and diplomatic and trade missions to non-aligned worlds - but not exploration missions per se.

 

[Supplement Four]

But the area they explored was right next to major worlds within the Imperium so I cannot see how it could fail to already have been visited.

A parsec is a hell of a distance. And, it's damn expensive to jump--tens of thousands of credits to jump one way.

Just like an airplane may fly from a populous city in Africa over terrain barely explored, starships could easily bypass non-explored worlds.

Take a look at the TL of the worlds around the area. Not all of them even have the tech to build starships. A TL 9 world, even if it has a good Starport, doesn't maintain a space navy.

So, there are a lot of reasons for pockets of non-explored systems (or barely explored systems) to exist in and around the Imperium.

 

[Icosahedron]

Thanks for all the advice - I spent today rather painfully trying to design a starship!

There are a number of starship generator programs out there if you are playing strictly to the rules - High Guard Shipyard is one that immediately springs to mind. There is also at least one Excel spreadsheet that might be tweakable for houseruling. I think it is in the library here. Either way, it will help if you can automate most of the process.

I've been looking at some of my old material - back in the day I quite happily played a lot of these games without actually looking at whether the canon holds up but looking at some of them these days I'm noticing some glaring holes. My favourite adventure was Leviathan - I quite liked the idea of boldly going where no man had made a profit before. But the area they explored was right next to major worlds within the Imperium so I cannot see how it could fail to already have been visited.

Welcome to the OTU! :smirk:
I don't use it myself.

If I were one for canonical OTU where would one go to explore, as the Imperium appears surrounded by known space occupied by someone. The First In supplement includes details of the 3000t Pytheas Exploratory Cruiser "used for long range expeditions outside Imperial space" - but to where?

It appears to me that most of the Imperium's borders are surrounded by space known to someone - I can see electronic eavesdropping missions, and diplomatic and trade missions to non-aligned worlds - but not exploration missions per se.

And welcome again.
As I say, I'm no expert on the OTU, but I believe there may be narrow avenues of exploration leading off from the Spinward Marches on the 'left' and the Glimmerdrift Reaches on the 'right'. But otherwise, yes they pretty well spiked their own canon. <groan>.

If you're prepared to do some work generating a subsector or two and you can live with a 'nebulous' Imperium off stage left, you're better off rolling your own universe IMHO. Borrow and sprinkle some canon worlds, give em a name change, and you're away. It also means you can happily ignore most of the arguments here in a very supercilious manner.

If you roll your own, use another generator for the sake of your sanity. I believe there are negotiations at this moment to put an Excel sheet in the library here.

You'll find several pepole here have some useful stuff in their signature links. I tend to collect it to guard against 'dead link syndrome' and then play with it when I have time - months, or even years hence sometimes. Wouldn't life be great if all you had to do was game!

 

[Golan2072]

You'll find several pepole here have some useful stuff in their signature links.

My former FTP is dead; if you want, I'll gladly send you all of my house-rules material (as well as a consolidated, PDF-ed version of Supplement 4's UGM task system for CT); just PM me with your e-mail address and I'll mail you the whole package.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

The First In supplement includes details of the 3000t Pytheas Exploratory Cruiser "used for long range expeditions outside Imperial space" - but to where?

The biggest unexplored area is Rimward of the Solomani area. There is some stuff created out there, but not a lot. And, it makes sense that the Soli focus is Imperium-ward - that's where the threat is, and that's where the trade is.

If you roll your own, use another generator for the sake of your sanity. I believe there are negotiations at this moment to put an Excel sheet in the library here.

Yup. Now that Hunter is back, it should get posted.

 

[Poor Merchant]

A parsec is a hell of a distance. And, it's damn expensive to jump--tens of thousands of credits to jump one way.

Just like an airplane may fly from a populous city in Africa over terrain barely explored, starships could easily bypass non-explored worlds.

Take a look at the TL of the worlds around the area. Not all of them even have the tech to build starships. A TL 9 world, even if it has a good Starport, doesn't maintain a space navy.

So, there are a lot of reasons for pockets of non-explored systems (or barely explored systems) to exist in and around the Imperium.

I can see where you are going with this argument, and I certainly have a lot of sympathy for it (I'm presuming that your argument is that the published maps show those systems known to have facilities and life of some sort but ignores the remainder as "clutter").

You do not need TL9 to reveal yourself to the rest of the universe - our world has been sending out the message that we are here for almost a 100 years via commercial radio (and we were TL6/7 at the time) surely there are 3I CETI stations to hear these broadcasts? So there would be a reduced chance of an established TL6+ civilization being missed but certainly I can buy your argument for planets with tech levels lower than this.

So presumably your adventure would not be seeing these Pytheas class cruisers as the descendants of Cabot, Columbus and Magellan in heading out extending the high frontier, but more of filling in the blanks between known space?

"Scout Commander, I asked you here today because we have picked up some electronic anomalies emanating from the 112-0568 system. As you are aware this system was ranked in the last Grand Survey as extremely unlikely to support life - it was therefore only given a cursory astrographic and electronic survey from a distance of two parsecs.

That survey classified the star type, located one planet and located the ecliptic plane of its orbit. Pretty amazing work with the equipment they had at the time. But there was not enough of interest to warrant an in-system survey.

Obviously that has now changed - I want you to take the IISS Frobisher and conduct a complete 1st Contact expedition"

I can see possibilities here but it's not quite going where no man has gone before. The obvious solution for the original designers to adopt would have been to have a big rift in one direction with one or two gas giants on the other side but no other details (no UWPs) - it would have been up to the players to figure out how to get across and the GM to figure out what they found on the other side. No official published material to be produced for this region (or at least none that included position of the system or maps).

The easy solution would be as another poster suggested to have the Imperium "stage left" and ignore the official maps etc. After all as soon as we start to play we both add to Canon and diverge from it....

 

[tim_manley]

If you still have your CT stuff, and you still like it, use it. There are plenty of us Grognards around here that continue to use the CT stuff, just as it came out of the box.

*almost* guilty as charged....

I use mostly CT, some of the MT carerrs tossed in (in the CT mode) and my own house rules modded combat system.

I still prefer CT with some minor additions from MT tossed in.

 

[Agemegos]

You do not need TL9 to reveal yourself to the rest of the universe - our world has been sending out the message that we are here for almost a 100 years via commercial radio

Despite what has been said often and widely repeated, broadcast radio and TV signals are not detectable, let alone intelligible, at interstellar distances. Our most sensitive radio telescope (the 305-metre Arecibo dish) could theoretically pick up a UHF TV signal at 1/3 of a light-year. That's about 1/10 of a parsec. Commercial FM radio would be detectable at 5.4 AU (ie. about the distance of Jupiter), and AM radio at 0.007 AU -- if you had a 1,000-foot receiving dish. Even a receiver 1,000 times as sensitive as Arecibo would not detect commercial broadcasts at interstellar distances.

ABM radar sets are a different matter. Because of their tight beams they might be detectable at great distance. But for the same reason, it is unlikely that any particular pulse will fall on any detector.

Read about it at the SETI FAQ.

Improving technology is unlikely to make us any more conspicuous, as we switch from high-powered broadcasts to optical fibre and minimum-power spread-spectrum transmission of compressed data, the planet actually gets dimmer in radio frequencies and its emissions come to look more and more like thermal noise.

The Fermi Paradox is not as pressing as people make out.