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Conventional Spaceflight

Im using the original (well 2nd edition) rules for 2300, not being that crazy about the Traveller crossover. The rules dont include anything on the peformance of conventional space drive systems. (ie. thrusters, rocket boosters, fission engines etc.) In that all space action doesnt occur at light speed or even the outragious speeds of stutterwarp in system, it seems this is a critical oversight. Granted the combat system doesnt allow for orbital conflicts between conventional drive ships but one cant even conjure up something without some data.

Has anyone else run into this and how did you manage it?
 
In-system travel in 2300AD is all by stutterwarp, just at lower warp speeds (slower than light) than are possible outside the system gravitic field.

Mongoose 2300AD does include additional drives for ships without stutterwarp and for getting to planetary surfaces and back out to where stutterwarp will work.

Or you can look at other sources for drives (MegaTraveller Hard Times; GURPS Vehicles or Spacecraft or Terradyne or Transhuman; other game books) or make up your own to suit what you are trying to accomplish.
 
Oh, Ive come up with some relative figure for interplanetary/orbital performance of conventional drives but Im talking tactics? Right now Im leaning toward a completely freeform system of combat at near orbit speeds or hell, even interplanetary speeds. The rules dont cover it at all. Even the new Traveller version has combat occuring at distances of a million or more kilometers when ships are travelling a hundreds of thousands of km in a minute. This simply isnt going to work when a few ships are attempting to attack a frieghter making landfall toward a planet... all the ships involved would be a extremely slow speeds at that point.. perhaps thousands of km per hour, not seconds!

How would you guys handle such an engagement? Use something like the vehicle rules? Just wing it?
 
If you mean where are the chemical rockets and ion drives (real world rocket motors now) the simple answer is they are not include because they are rubbish next to stutterwarp ships. Trouble is stuff like you suggest tends to happen when players are involved ;)

For combat at orbital speeds you have the option of using the vehicle scale of combat as you suggest, but what I did was adapt the rules from CyberPunk's Near orbit, I'll dig them out and post them if you are interested.
 
That would be great, thanks... I think there is def a need for two different scales of ship combat here. The two are completely different in scope and application.
 
One of the problems that will appear if non stutterwarp ships are used in combat is how to confront them with a stutterwarp equiped ships (or stutterwarp missiles, as featured in 2300AD).

Probably stutterwarp ships would have to be given unlimited movement (as the speed differential is enormous)

IIRC that was a major factor in the Slaver Wars against the Sung, as they had no stutterwarp.
 
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In deep space or even interplanetary space sure but in close orbit? Within the .1G threshold stutterwarp is barely able to maintain orbit and has trouble with escape velocity (requireing a slingshot dive in some cases)

I suppose a non-stutterwarp force could just stay close to the atmosphere (up to about 12,000 km for Earth) and watch as the cool stutterwarp missiles sputter as they approach, or mix it up with the warpships as they drop to reasonable speeds and weapon range. Granted, the FTL guys could set up a blockade but they really wouldnt dare engage, completely losing thier advantage to the conventional ships in the gravity zone.

Id have to read up on the Sung War but seems to me they had to have been squeezed into a surrender rather than beaten in decisive engagements.
 
If you're just doing combat at orbital distances, and orbital speeds, with light speed weapons and sensors designed to detect ships over 100,000 to millions of kilometers, you may as well just roll initiative and start rolling damage based on how many lasers you have to see who wins.

There basically is no "combat", there's no tactics, there's no maneuver. It's put the + on the dot, turn the knob to "11 -- Extra Crispy" and hold down the FIRE button until one of you stops.

If you deign to shoot missiles at each other, then shoot those down until you run out and start over at step one.

Light speed weapons are bad enough over thousands upon thousands of kilometers. Up close, it's a fight with rifles in a small room.

We won't comment on detonating nuclear missiles in the atmosphere against slow approaching craft coming out of the gravity well.
 
In deep space or even interplanetary space sure but in close orbit? Within the .1G threshold stutterwarp is barely able to maintain orbit and has trouble with escape velocity (requireing a slingshot dive in some cases)

I suppose a non-stutterwarp force could just stay close to the atmosphere (up to about 12,000 km for Earth) and watch as the cool stutterwarp missiles sputter as they approach, or mix it up with the warpships as they drop to reasonable speeds and weapon range. Granted, the FTL guys could set up a blockade but they really wouldnt dare engage, completely losing thier advantage to the conventional ships in the gravity zone.

But missiles can be sent approaching to the planet in whose orbit your non stutterwarp fleet is and make them detonante their bombs before they reach the 0.1G threshold. Remember missiles in 2300 are detonation lasers, so don't need to reach contact with the target ship to damage it. I gess your non stutterwarp fleet will be shot to submission by a fleet out of your range, and, unless you also use stutterwarp missiles, they will flee away of any missiles you throw to them.

Even lasers have a range of 1 hex (so 1 light seccond), being able to shot at you fleet from moon's orbit (or near so), long far from the 0.1G threshold.
 
Yes, the range of space weaponry dawned on me after I read the post, 600,000km laser shots are pretty impressive. Not to mention that by description they are barrage type emitters, engaging the target with muliple shots to embrase several different possible locations. At conventional ranges this would equate to multiple automatic hits every few seconds. Even if a ship couldnt get into orbit it could park three times the distance of the moon away and blast at will.

Are we basically saying that in the race to produce space weaponry capable of engaging stutterwarp targets even at reduced interplanetary speeds we have rendered any other form of weaponry obsolete?

Now Im assuming this kind of weaponry cant function in an atmosphere right? Otherwise, why have all the cool conventional vehicles? Is that way the two systems never merge in the rules?

But, Ill throw in a monkey wrench here, what happens when I fire my shoulder fired rocket at your ship on the launch pad, or a 25mm autocannon-armed vehicle brackets a shuttle as it takes off?
 
Yes, the range of space weaponry dawned on me after I read the post, 600,000km laser shots are pretty impressive. Not to mention that by description they are barrage type emitters, engaging the target with muliple shots to embrase several different possible locations. At conventional ranges this would equate to multiple automatic hits every few seconds. Even if a ship couldnt get into orbit it could park three times the distance of the moon away and blast at will.

Are we basically saying that in the race to produce space weaponry capable of engaging stutterwarp targets even at reduced interplanetary speeds we have rendered any other form of weaponry obsolete?

As much as the developement of weponry capable to damage tanks made obsolete other forms of weaponry. Those weapons are good to take space crafts, wether stutterwarp or conventionally moved, but they are not good for other things, so other weaponry keeps being usable, just not against stutterwarp ships in their element.

Now Im assuming this kind of weaponry cant function in an atmosphere right? Otherwise, why have all the cool conventional vehicles? Is that way the two systems never merge in the rules?

Contradictory data here, as there is no refference to starship weaponry used as ortillery, but there is about space fighters being used as air support. My guess is that this weaponry is useful in atmosphere at shorter ranges, so being able to strafing runs, but not to orbital bombardment.

But, Ill throw in a monkey wrench here, what happens when I fire my shoulder fired rocket at your ship on the launch pad, or a 25mm autocannon-armed vehicle brackets a shuttle as it takes off?

I have not enough data to answer. My guess is that vehicle combat rules should apply, but how armored are starships and shuttles?
 
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A quick question here ...
Is 2300AD based on the same GDW Rule System as TNE?
Is FF&S a valid tool for 2300AD?

I ask because I have been struggling with the FF&S laser design (for hand-held lasers) and remember seeing the answer to your range question for Planetary Bombardment with Starship Lasers. Per FF&S pages 127-128, space lasers are x-ray and suck at penetrating atmospheres. FF&S goes into a lot more specific detail, but as an example, firing at the surface of a world with a standard atmosphere treats the shot as if the range were 100 times the actual range (in hexes) so shooting at the surface of world from 1 hex away counts as a 100 hex shot (200 hexes for a dense atmosphere). Shooting from the same hex counts as a 0.5 hex base range or 50 hex shot (100 hexes for a dense atmosphere).

I hope that helps some.
 
I think I read somewhere that the lasers in 2300 space combat were indeed xray lasers, but there are plasma weapons as well so it doesnt lend toward a solution here.
 
I suppose a non-stutterwarp force could just stay close to the atmosphere (up to about 12,000 km for Earth) and watch as the cool stutterwarp missiles sputter as they approach, or mix it up with the warpships as they drop to reasonable speeds and weapon range. Granted, the FTL guys could set up a blockade but they really wouldnt dare engage, completely losing thier advantage to the conventional ships in the gravity zone.

I personally find your view of the situation more interesting because it introduces more nuance and variation to the universe. Unfortunately it isn't borne out by the combat rules themselves. GDW for whatever reason was absolutely enamored with having space combat occur at huge distances. It happens in Traveller. 2300 has it as well.

Remember, a 2300 space hex is 600,000km across. Starship lasers in 2300 are listed as shooting at a range of two hexes. So they're able to do damage at ranges of 1,200,000km at the very least.

(Side note: Unfortunately I'm not up on my Physics but doesn't that range seem a bit ... extreme? Taking into account the Inverse-Square Law and how much megawattage 2300 lasers are rated at, it seems unrealistic. I sometimes suspect that GDW's writers didn't really know about the Inverse-Square law and only thought about the lack of atmospheric attenuation when determining space combat ranges.)

As Whartung points out, 2300's sensors and gunnery computers are designed to hit something moving effectively faster than lightspeed. Due to the nature of Stutterwarp in regards to inertia (it doesn't really have any) and how Stutterwarps probably flicker in a somehow random pattern to make it harder to hit, essentially all weapons in 2300 have a very high rate of fire and use prediction software to simply shoot a whole bunch of shots into the general area where you think the ship will be when your lightspeed beams reach there and hope a few hit.

0.1g Gravity gradients and serious degradation of performance occurs relatively close-in to planets (a lot less than 1.2 million km iirc). In other words, the range of weapons in 2300 are a b*tch for people lower down (in the higher gravity range). They don't have to come down to where their own efficiency takes huge hits. Ships further up can shoot you to pieces from range where they still have pretty good efficiency. They can lob detonation lasers as well. It's essentially impossible for conventional spaceships to evade any of it. Only the mad flickering about of Stutterwarp allows evading hits.

But it gets worse.

The lasers of 2300 become much more effective as they no longer have to sweep fire into an area to hope to hit. Instead they concentrate on a single effectively stationary point. Assuming they still have to fire pulses due to the nature of their optics and power supplies, that 1x1+1 laser still will become something like a 1x20 monster. A 2x14 detonation laser might become some 2x40 vorpal weapon. In neither case do the lasers have to roll to hit anymore so all the shots are hitting.

How would you guys handle such an engagement? Use something like the vehicle rules? Just wing it?

If you're using 2300's combat system, I'd start using the vehicle rules and go with the idea that if you're playing an RPG you probably want to bias yourself heavily in favor of excitement and players making a difference instead of determinism, because determinism is what is going to happen if you go with straight 2300 rules distilled for near-orbit as demonstrated above.

Personally, I want to see things more dramatic, involving more rolling of dice by my players even at the sacrifice of some realism. In my 2300 universe, I made electronic warfare (EW) my excuse for this. An unarmed and unequipped freighter is going to be so much target practice for a freighter. However, a freighter equipped with a few guns and decent EW suite can make things more interesting. EW is of course is considered a weapon by naval authorities, but given the Kafer War, a lot of civilian ships in my universe carry EW suites. As a weapon, EW suites occupy a nebulous status where they're far less threatening than a detonation laser (which is still a nuclear weapon and a huge no-no for civilian ships in a lot cases), technically EW is non-lethal unlike a weaponized laser or particle accelerator, but despite all that, it's not entirely "defensive" and can still be used offensively to cause a lot of potentially deadly mischief.

As a result, most navies will wink and nod and look the other way at EW installations on civilian vessels. If you use an EW system in an inhabited system, expect to be detained by the authorities regardless of if you had a good reason or not - the court will determine if you had good reason. If it was obviously for good reason (like being chased by a Kafer ship that can be corroborated by Naval witnesses) they'll ask for your sensor records and an after-action report and send you on your way after maybe a day or two while they get the paperwork straightened out. If you didn't have a good reason, be ready for some serious legal trouble, starting with fines but might end at seizure of the ship and a prison sentence.

EW essentially shortens ranges because it jams accurate sensor returns. It includes omni-directional equipment as well as targeted transmission equipment. It can do things dazzle optics using lasers (which can be lower powered and longer ranged because it's trying to degrade the performance of telescopes by dazzling them, instead destroying them), jam radar, and so on. To be fully effective, EW requires a "gunner" to operate it. If a ship is attacked by an effective EW attack, it's effective combat range drops hugely. Of course, the closer you get to the EW target, the more effective the EW gets. Stutterwarp ships in gravity gradients sufficient for space combat still jump around a lot, so a good EW suite can allow you to evade that Kafer privateer long enough to get near enough to a planet where Naval forces can chase the Kafer ship away, or allow you land and hide amongst the ground clutter in uninhabited systems (that the Kafers might land too and send out search parties to look for the players is perfect, because now it's a nice easily handled player-scale combat where all the players can contribute).

Ships have countermeasures against EW of course, including things like burn-through for RADAR, or getting into a range where your weaponized lasers to destroy the EW suite's dazzle laser (targeting with this level of precision requires coming into near visual range), Radiation Homing Missiles and so on. Of course, in turn, Radiation Homing Missiles can be shot down by your own weaponized lasers set to point-defense, dazzle lasers can turned off and hidden under armored covers, and so on.

This all increases the number of rolls, options for action by the players to do things, which reduces the amount of determinism ... which was my goal in the first place.
 
McPerth - I respect that you dont have sufficient information, neither do I! BUT - Im hoping to hear opinions. (Yours are quite welcome)

Im thinking that a system to convert the DP of vehicle weapons to a "HIT" for spacecraft purposes is one solution, together with a multiplier or some form from Starcruiser scale armor to vehicle armor. (not to mention determining how, or if, electromagnetic screening has any effect.)

On the other side, determining a DP value for a given spacecraft laser or particle weapon (auto hits in space might be assumed), and any atmosphereic effects.

Doesnt seem too hard a job really and would provide for those odd instances when the two realms of combat converge.
 
A quick question here ...
Is 2300AD based on the same GDW Rule System as TNE?
Is FF&S a valid tool for 2300AD?

I ask because I have been struggling with the FF&S laser design (for hand-held lasers) and remember seeing the answer to your range question for Planetary Bombardment with Starship Lasers. Per FF&S pages 127-128, space lasers are x-ray and suck at penetrating atmospheres. FF&S goes into a lot more specific detail, but as an example, firing at the surface of a world with a standard atmosphere treats the shot as if the range were 100 times the actual range (in hexes) so shooting at the surface of world from 1 hex away counts as a 100 hex shot (200 hexes for a dense atmosphere). Shooting from the same hex counts as a 0.5 hex base range or 50 hex shot (100 hexes for a dense atmosphere).

I hope that helps some.

2300AD rules grew from Twilight: 2000 rules. I'm not familiar w TNE to give an opinion, but did those also come from T:2000?
 
2300 laser range – I think Starcruiser allows for one hex or same hex fire… so essentially maybe 900,000km max, but whos counting? - laugh, its still a ridiculously long way.

Light Speed Combat – I read somewhere that engagement in 2300 were considered to be sublight speed. A typical ship moving 3 or 4 hexes over a minute long turn doesn’t quite reach light speed (about 100,000km per sec if I figured right) but again, its crazy fast for a fight.

Laser Bombardment – I agree, although at the given max range they would only be about 3x the orbit of the moon out there firing down, not a terrible distance if something were going out to meet them. But want a nasty trip, as I agree with you that the targeting systems and multi-fire capability would pretty much ensure automatic hits and massive damage.

EW – I like your approach and its certainly a nice dramatic addition, but for purposes of effect it essentially just decreases the ship’s signature right?

I will agree that the sophistication of 2300 space combat certainly rules out a lot of more mundane possibilities but not all. I can imagine a hundred scenarios where conventional weapons, drives and maneuvering could come into play. It seems so odd that the rules totally ignore them. We haven’t started playing yet and our group got into this discussion almost immediately.

GM – “Heres a print out of your subsidized freighter”
Player – “Cool, uh, we aren’t armed?”
GM – “Nope, you’re a good law abiding citizen operating in a secure area.”
Player – “uh huh, well ok but I still want to mount a 25mm autocannon or something in case somebody tries to board me.”
GM – “Hmm, what would that do to another ship close up and about dock?”
Player – “Yeah, but the real question is what would a bank of Hyde Dynamic Lasers do to us at a range of say 50 meters when we open up with that thing?”
 
A quick question here ...
Is 2300AD based on the same GDW Rule System as TNE?
Is FF&S a valid tool for 2300AD?

No. 2300AD uses a different FTL drive (Stutterwarp) based on tunneling, and the same drive is used in space at STL, except when into the 0.1G threshold, where conventional (reaction) drives are used. There's no gravitics in 2300AD, so no continuous acceleration, and ships using stutterwarp are really motionless, just tunneling, so if drive is stopped they stop motionless, instead of keeping at the direction they were.

Also, in 2300AD combat lasers are mostly anti-missile weapons, and missiles are detonation lasers (or, as the Ritage1, more alike figter drones) equiped with sensors, and are used as sensor drones with attack capability quite often (you leave your missiles far from your ship and use them both to detect and to attack).
 
McPerth - I respect that you dont have sufficient information, neither do I! BUT - Im hoping to hear opinions. (Yours are quite welcome)

TY. I must also confess is that I don't own 2300AD, and most what I say is from memory for having read it some years ago (I own some supplements, though, that reinforce my memory).

Im thinking that a system to convert the DP of vehicle weapons to a "HIT" for spacecraft purposes is one solution, together with a multiplier or some form from Starcruiser scale armor to vehicle armor. (not to mention determining how, or if, electromagnetic screening has any effect.)

Just an idea here, but more than a multiplier for armor at space scale against vehicle scale (that would leave unarmored space ships as vulnerable as a ground car, or even more), I'd use an equivalence a la MT (or, for what I've heard, Striker), where space armor 0 is quivalent to vehicle armor X and each factor of space armor adds Y to vehicle armor equivalent.

On the other side, determining a DP value for a given spacecraft laser or particle weapon (auto hits in space might be assumed), and any atmosphereic effects.

Doesnt seem too hard a job really and would provide for those odd instances when the two realms of combat converge.

The DP should depend on how much armor you assume a starship has, as the penetration is damage related in 2300AD, so, IMHO, both developements should go along together.
 
Your right of course, about the ship armor, but it brings up an interesting point.

Are the spacecraft weapons tremendously powerful to overcome typically tough spacecraft armor... or are they minimally damaging weapons (emphasis on the targeting and actually hitting of targets) but appear effective due to relatively thin-skinned spacecraft design?

With no comparison to other weapon systems or armor, its impossible to tell. Its possible that over several hundred thousand km, a laser or particle beam is terribly weak in strength but due to the delicate nature of spacecraft, they do considerable damage. Even an armored ship could be only slightly better protected than your typical light military vehicle and therefore very susceptable to conventional weapons. This could mean that outside their typical situation, spacecraft weapons arent all that effective.

Considering spacecraft or our age, they are made of metal sure but are incredibly fragile, taking damage from even micromedeorites and such. A machine gun would riddle them.

But the exact opposite could be true. Some aspect of engineering and design in 2300 could have ship hulls comprised of extremely reselient material, which would turn even a M1 Abram's main gun, which would then in turn make a ship's laser battery capable of annhilating almost any conventional vehicle.

Hmmm
 
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