Converting Games to Traveller

[robject]

The discussion about TNE/Virus got me thinking about how a rule system change can affect the feel of a game. Consider my hypothesis that TNE was more like 2300AD than Traveller. I liked to call it "2300AD with jump drive and 2D starcharts" - and I may be wrong, but that's my impression reading thru it.

So then I had a thought experiment.

Would Gamma World lose its feel if it were converted to Traveller?

What does "converted to" mean, but a change of the rules? And how much do the rules add to the feel of a game? A lot, obviously.

So consider Gamma World.

First, characteristics change from D&D to Traveller. Having first known both D&D and GW before Traveller, I admit that the difference is jarring. So to a GW fan, the Gamma World characteristics are the "right way" to do it. Using Traveller chargen would feel wrong.

Next is the tasks. Actually I can't remember tasks in GW. So maybe not such a big deal.

Damage would feel strange, using only six-siders. Would feel like Yahtzee or something.

Animals and weapons might not be seen in as bad a light. Even before Traveller I disliked the feeling of randomness about these. And the addition of vehicles would be welcome to me.

Psionics would have left me torn. On one hand, consistency in Traveller's rules would be offset by their relative powerlessness on the high end.

Then things like starships and the UWP would tell me that the publisher wants to change GW into something that's not GW. Why? Because the focus has left the original intent.

 

[mike wightman]

Traveller to me has always been a weird dichotomy.
Is it the rules or is it the setting or is it a bit of both? Is there such a word as trichotomy?

Before the Imperium setting was made all pervasive in the rules (and the eventual publication of MT which made it clear that the rules and setting went hand in hand) Traveller was a generic set of rules with certain tropes that implied a setting but these could easily be ignored.
If I run Star Wars, Star Trek, Blake's 7 using the Traveller rules am I playing Traveller?

If I run a game set during the long night where a group of PCs travel from world to world having adventures but I use the Space Opera or Aftermath or original T2000 rules am I playing Traveller? If I run A1-3 using BRP am I playing Traveller?
If I use GURPS to play GT am I playing Traveller?

 

[whartung]

Virus isn't a rule change, it's a setting.

The most significant change in TNE was reaction mass based maneuver drives. Limited maneuver could have a dramatic affect on the "feel" of the galaxy as it directly impacted how you moved about it.

Now, if you never ran your own starship, and simply used them as you would an airliner, then there's no difference at all. Ostensibly it could affect intersystem travel times, but that would be a minor impact to most games.

 

[robject]

You're right: Virus is a setting.

However, the GDW House Rules were designed "for" something decidedly Not Traveller. Namely, post-apocalyptic cyberpunk. Shadowrun. It is as if a Traveller setting were placed on top of D&D. I am told that even 2300AD changed.

There is, I think, some valid comparison to GURPS. But the nice thing about GURPS is that it was designed to be truly generic, modular to the extreme. Swap out the cyberpunk and swap in Age of Sail.

Plainly some of us like the settings enough that the rules may change and that's all right. Others of us like the rules enough that the setting is less important - and the original purpose of Traveller is towards generic Golden Era Space Opera and Science Fiction.

So rules that distract us from those elements - and I've posted about those elements - which Traveller rules focus on, which take the focus away or move the focus, or even widen the focus, tend to not feel as much like Traveller.

It feels like TNE widened the focus to share the leanings of the GDW House System, and instead of broadening its appeal, Traveller was diminished.

I could be QUITE wrong there. How did TNE do before Magic: The Gathering gutted the industry?

 

[robject]

Here's the thing that I find strange:

TNE finally brought robots and computers to Traveller in a Golden SF manner, e.g. Daneel Olivaw and so on. And yet I say it doesn't feel like Traveller.

And then, Marc writes Traveller5, which has the same sort of capabilities for robots and computers. And I have no problem with it at all.

What's the difference? Same subject material, even the same general guidelines for both, and yet one I reject and one I embrace - not without issues, but the issues are of a different nature (as in, not rejection). The only, lame, reason I can give is that T5 "feels like Traveller", just as CT and MT felt like Traveller. Ok, and even T4 felt like Traveller, and it ported over material FROM TNE.

 

[mike wightman]

By the time TNE was written the tropes of CT and MT were so dated as to be ridiculous - despite the fact that it was a matter of interpretation, with hindsight you could make CT transhumanist...

Thing is if you look at CT the robots and computers stuff has been there since Marc's article in JTAS.
Then look at adventures 1 and 2.

TNE had no input from Marc - he was selling insurance at the time. It was Frank Chadwick, Loren and Dave Nilsen.

 

[ovka]

Here's the thing that I find strange:

TNE finally brought robots and computers to Traveller in a Golden SF manner, e.g. Daneel Olivaw and so on. And yet I say it doesn't feel like Traveller.

And then, Marc writes Traveller5, which has the same sort of capabilities for robots and computers. And I have no problem with it at all.

What's the difference? Same subject material, even the same general guidelines for both, and yet one I reject and one I embrace - not without issues, but the issues are of a different nature (as in, not rejection). The only, lame, reason I can give is that T5 "feels like Traveller", just as CT and MT felt like Traveller. Ok, and even T4 felt like Traveller, and it ported over material FROM TNE.

Could it be the setting? Don't be too quick to completely divorce the setting from the rules. I'm looking forward to seeing what IY1900 looks like, but I also have a certain trepidation that it won't have that "Traveller feel."

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[ovka]

TNE had no input from Marc - he was selling insurance at the time. It was Frank Chadwick, Loren and Dave Nilsen.

... and that could be the difference in the "Traveller" feel as well.

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[RandyB]

You're right: Virus is a setting.

However, the GDW House Rules were designed "for" something decidedly Not Traveller. Namely, post-apocalyptic cyberpunk. Shadowrun. It is as if a Traveller setting were placed on top of D&D. I am told that even 2300AD changed.

This is more true than you may realize. GDW's House Rules came directly from... Twilight:2000. Not cyberpunk, but explicitly post-apocalyptic. Allowing for multi-genre gaming (TNE, T:2000, 2300AD [sequel to/rebranding of Traveller:2300], Dark Conspiracy [there's one Shadowrun-ish influence), Cadillacs and Dinosaurs [more post-apoc]*) meant that the rules would no longer be tied to the tropes of the 3I setting.


*not sure if this list is exhaustive.

 

[mike wightman]

You're right: Virus is a setting.

However, the GDW House Rules were designed "for" something decidedly Not Traveller. Namely, post-apocalyptic cyberpunk. Shadowrun.

That's what was popular at the time.

There is, I think, some valid comparison to GURPS. But the nice thing about GURPS is that it was designed to be truly generic, modular to the extreme. Swap out the cyberpunk and swap in Age of Sail.

CT was generic - Marc even says so.
One of my 'take from my cold dead hands' games is GURPS Terradyne, which could easily have been written for CT had not GDW decided the 3I was the setting for Traveller.

Plainly some of us like the settings enough that the rules may change and that's all right. Others of us like the rules enough that the setting is less important - and the original purpose of Traveller is towards generic Golden Era Space Opera and Science Fiction.

Which rules do you like? CT, MT , T4 etc - which setting do you like....

So rules that distract us from those elements - and I've posted about those elements - which Traveller rules focus on, which take the focus away or move the focus, or even widen the focus, tend to not feel as much like Traveller.

And yet TNE and 1248 are Traveller...

It feels like TNE widened the focus to share the leanings of the GDW House System, and instead of broadening its appeal, Traveller was diminished.

The mess that was MT had already diminished Traveller - errata issues, lack of adventures, rpg sci fi games moving on... I still remember the stand of Cyberpunk boxes in MFLGS

I could be QUITE wrong there. How did TNE do before Magic: The Gathering gutted the industry?

MT didn't do anywhere nearly as well as CT, T2300 took some of the market share and then TNE was released into a sci fi rpg environment dominated by Cyberpunk.

Note that now Cyberpunk is considered hockey and Traveller is having some sort of rebirth.

Mongoose is always going to be the genre definer unless Marc actually gets the Galaxiad to press.

Why doesn't he get Mongoose to do Galaxiad?

Why are T5 rules incompatible with MgT rules?

 

[whartung]

However, the GDW House Rules were designed "for" something decidedly Not Traveller. Namely, post-apocalyptic cyberpunk. Shadowrun. It is as if a Traveller setting were placed on top of D&D. I am told that even 2300AD changed.

Maybe I'm missing what part of the rules that make TNE "post-apocalyptic cyberpunk".

T2K was "post apocalyptic", but even that was pure setting. The mechanics were just that -- mechanics, not even special mechanics. Maybe there was a rule on how to distill alcohol for truck fuel snuck in there someplace, or spreading of disease.

I look through the TNE skill list and I don't see "Street Samurai and Cyborg Maintenance Tech" in the list, or "Mega Corp Black Hat Hacker Salaryman".

Combat is "how to punch things through armor", whether you're wearing it or riding in it.

TNE was Traveller because it gave us the kits we were used too (even if separated in FF&S). Characters, combat, spaceships, design, world building and trade. The same stuff as the first 3 LBB in expanded form.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

I agree there are some RPG games that the rules "tied" to a setting or genre. Using it for something another setting, you may lose something else.

My extreme example here is TOON: The Cartoon Roleplaying Game and the Storyteller System. TOON does its comedy well. Storyteller does the whole examine your character's emotions well. Now, switch rule systems. Not likely to be playable even with lots of "house rules" and keep the feel.

Other games are more generic for settings, but the rules provide a certain feel. Most everyone know for example the "feel" and difference of D20 combat vs the most versions of Traveller. Deadly is word people use for Traveller. But one or two changes to rules makes the game feel different, yes. Look at the D&D 3.5 Unrearthed Arcana and change a thing or three.

 

[aramis]

Maybe I'm missing what part of the rules that make TNE "post-apocalyptic cyberpunk".

You can't get much more of an apocalypse than 70% of known space dying off, and the tech level regressing 2 tech levels as a general rule, and no longer being able to use a network.

As for cyberpunk... it included the cyberware in corebook vol 2: FF&S. The Cyber k'kree meat-puppet image on the T-shirts. The intent was specifically to allow for Cyberpunk within.

T2K was "post apocalyptic", but even that was pure setting. The mechanics were just that -- mechanics, not even special mechanics. Maybe there was a rule on how to distill alcohol for truck fuel snuck in there someplace, or spreading of disease.

I look through the TNE skill list and I don't see "Street Samurai and Cyborg Maintenance Tech" in the list, or "Mega Corp Black Hat Hacker Salaryman".

Combat is "how to punch things through armor", whether you're wearing it or riding in it.

TNE was Traveller because it gave us the kits we were used too (even if separated in FF&S). Characters, combat, spaceships, design, world building and trade. The same stuff as the first 3 LBB in expanded form.

If you bought the deluxe edition FF&S was in the box.

Speaking of punching things... one of the flaws of T2K and TNE is that it's quite literally possible for a guy with STR 10 and Brawling 5+ to puch a tank for actual damage to the tank... but you can't one-shot-kill an NPC with a .22 pistol.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Traveller: The New Era is intended to not be limited to a single campaign background or to a single set of future science assumptions. Its rules are intended as a framework that will allow the play of a wide variety of science-fiction visions. Such different visions have distinctive technologies that separate them from speculative universes without such technologies. Matter teleportation, stardrives, and antigravity are all forms of technology whose presence in or absence from a setting have a major influence on the overall feel of that science fiction setting, and are all directions that can be explored in Fire, Fusion & Steel: Traveller Technical Architecture.

- Fire, Fusion & Steel (Mk1 Mod1) pg 6