Corridor sizes?

[Pickles]

Corridors? 10 foot by 10 foot, flagstone floors ... oh, sorry, wrong neural pathway.

I'm happy with the 1.5m variety in Traveller. "Excuse me miss, can I just squeeeze ... past ..."

Space aboard starships should be at a premium. Anyway, who wants battle-dressed marines roaming their ship? Not me!

 

[Ptah]

I'd say #3 looks right to me, and also feels right at least for main passageways within a starship.

The smallest corridor #4, is what I'd imagine most access passaways would look like, and maybe even a little smaller. More of a tube with zero-g to aid in access.

Corridors #1 and #2 I would imagine are examples of access points to cargo loading areas and the corridors in main areas of luxury liners.

As to what's on the walls. I think the emergency design would be for zero-g. If the ship is hurt and damaged power for gravitics may be out. So I would imagine a series of smooth rungs along the side so one could pull yourself down the corridor. If rigging the ship to make it harder to board, one might "batten down the rungs" (push them into the wall) and evacuate the corridors all to make it harder to move quickly.

Design wise I'm not a big fan of too much stuff sticking out, but I do liek the idea of the corridor walls have metal grates so one can easily see the functional bits set in the walls (for a quick visual inspection) and simply pull the grate to remove for repair. Following this tangent further , I'd imagine the grates and everything else that can be, is made of lightweight plastics/composites. The grates may be made of a slightly magnetic plastic so you could pop it out and stick it to the wall to keep it out of the way.

Lastly on the BD issue. I don't know the T20 stats but your last picture and the ones in the link Sigg provided are more along the ideas of what BD is to me. As you mentioned in the last picture the weapons would be shorter for boarding actions. On grenades and such in a clsoed space, if "weak" enough the BD trooper should be fine, it's the lightly or poorly armored civilian or pirate that will be in trouble. Finally, on how tight it is and one trooper getting in the way of another. Well that is why boarding troops are the best of the best. It takes extreme amounts of training to provide a coordinated assault in such tight corridors without shooting your buddy. One advantage Marines (or players with 2 ex-Marines) have over pirates.

There could also be technological aids, sensors in the weapon that don't let you shoot your buddy for example.

Almost forgot, excellent images by the way.

 

[BetterThanLife]

How about a Battledress Suited Engineer performing Damage control? (Engineering Battledress was mentioned in Grand Fleet.) Vacsuits while good at keeping out some damage are definitely not designed to deal with structural damage and fires in a limited visibility environment.

 

[rhoneycutt]

okay...
hey...I think Solomani ship's ( ours ) are suppose to be more cramped anyways...so how about #4 for earth ships....#3 for Vilani ships

1.5m for solomani ships would be right if you assume various junction boxes and conduits, etc. along the walls.

If you ever get a chance to make it to Houston, go visit the NASA space center. They have a shuttle command deck, a space station module mockup and a skylab you can look at and go in, and they are not roomy. Maybe newer space station parts are bigger, but their mock-ups are small.

The apollo capsule would have driven me insane...sitting shoulder to shoulder in seats smaller than budget airliner's for a couple of weeks?...gotta respect those astronauts. Gives a decent look at low tech trav too.

for the game purposes, space isn't that much more unforgiving...most ppl ignore radiation and heat issues....and like the sailing ship days, if you get a hole that can't be fixed....you'll probably die in any case....maybe you'll survive a bit longer adrift at sea, but without rescue, you'll most likely be fishfood in time.....( assuming no islands to be marooned on )...

 

[BetterThanLife]

Actually Access Corridors are rarely represented on Traveller Deckplans. I can do access tubes. But they really aren't on the plans.

As far as Zero-G aid moving down corridors, space faring crew would generally really only need handles where you turn a corner. (Now Passengers that spend most of their time on the ground, well that is a different story.)

The Official Solomani Deckplans (actually just one) that I have seen have the 1.5m passages, where they have passages. The bulk of the crew quarters was along the central axis and they were just about standard size, but they were two staterooms, without an intervening wall, and they had a door at either end. (So if you lived at the end you went through everyone elses stateroom to get to yours.)

Technological aids for IFF systems generally have a safe zone around the friendlies that you can't fire into. Unless you are using guided bullets, (And I haven't seen a TL where effectors are legal in Traveller yet.) you are basically, in these corridors not going to be able to provide cover fire, unless or until your partner goes prone. (Which is probably the proceedure, but definitely with these corridors you have ruled out suppressive fire.)

OH and thanks for the comment on the pics.

Originally posted by Ptah:
I'd say #3 looks right to me, and also feels right at least for main passageways within a starship.

The smallest corridor #4, is what I'd imagine most access passaways would look like, and maybe even a little smaller. More of a tube with zero-g to aid in access.

Corridors #1 and #2 I would imagine are examples of access points to cargo loading areas and the corridors in main areas of luxury liners.

As to what's on the walls. I think the emergency design would be for zero-g. If the ship is hurt and damaged power for gravitics may be out. So I would imagine a series of smooth rungs along the side so one could pull yourself down the corridor. If rigging the ship to make it harder to board, one might "batten down the rungs" (push them into the wall) and evacuate the corridors all to make it harder to move quickly.

Design wise I'm not a big fan of too much stuff sticking out, but I do liek the idea of the corridor walls have metal grates so one can easily see the functional bits set in the walls (for a quick visual inspection) and simply pull the grate to remove for repair. Following this tangent further , I'd imagine the grates and everything else that can be, is made of lightweight plastics/composites. The grates may be made of a slightly magnetic plastic so you could pop it out and stick it to the wall to keep it out of the way.

Lastly on the BD issue. I don't know the T20 stats but your last picture and the ones in the link Sigg provided are more along the ideas of what BD is to me. As you mentioned in the last picture the weapons would be shorter for boarding actions. On grenades and such in a clsoed space, if "weak" enough the BD trooper should be fine, it's the lightly or poorly armored civilian or pirate that will be in trouble. Finally, on how tight it is and one trooper getting in the way of another. Well that is why boarding troops are the best of the best. It takes extreme amounts of training to provide a coordinated assault in such tight corridors without shooting your buddy. One advantage Marines (or players with 2 ex-Marines) have over pirates.

There could also be technological aids, sensors in the weapon that don't let you shoot your buddy for example.

Almost forgot, excellent images by the way.

 

[avi.hecht]

Corridors - what corridors...
In today's space craft they do not really exist. If we compare to modern wet ships it would depend on purpose and size of vessel –
Submarines (diesel) forget it (sorry no experience in the Atomic ones…)
Patrol vessels and missile boats – 1.5 mt if at all – and fire fighting crews rush through them like wind… (No battle dress though and no requirement to be in a VAC suit)
Destroyers and even carriers – the ratings squeeze to the wall when an officer passes – so again I would say 1.5mt.max 2mt.
Merchant fleet would be the same.
Pleasure craft – passenger liners – well that demands on the class you travel in but even in the rich ones they do not waste too much space on corridors.

 

[Laryssa]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
I usually recolor it to the Traditional Imperial Marine Maroon, but i didn't bother today.

Actually Sigg, the BD is too small. It is about 190vls. (My design for Marine Battledress is 249 and the Stock THB Battledress is 300.) They couldn't even get into a hallway. And Combat Armor isn't really any better on these narrow 1.5m corridors.


The lead trooper is just as likely to get shot in the back as someone that pops into view. (And one of the early things I learned in MOUT (Maneuvering Over Urban Terrain)is you stay off the walls as ricochets tend to travel along walls.) Further the lead trooper is about as likely to snag the barrel on the wall as be able to bring it around. And a Plasma Gun or a grenade is likely to just kill everyone in the hallway. (Overpressure is a bitch.)

Ursa come in at between 300 and 400 vls (roughly) and forget about Virushi on any of the Standard Imperial design Starships.

But I wasn't just concerned about Battledress. I was thinking about Emergency situations, which unlike allowing an assault force to maneuver is actually something that the designers have to take into account. Weighed down and bulked up by Vacsuits, carrying firefighting equipment towards an emergency and bodies away from an emergency, there isn't enough room in a 1.5m hallway to pass.

There's an advantage in that, maybe these marines are your enemy, and you don't want to be surrounded by them. If it is your starship they boarded, you may choose to have narrow corridors so you can fight off these marines one-by-one. If you have superior armor such as battledress, you can block the whole corridor and the marines can't get around you, nor can they overwhelm you. There may be hundreds of them, but they just can't get past you as you knock them off one-by-one.

[ September 17, 2006, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Boulton ]

 

[Icosahedron]

My 2p? I'd say:

1 looks like a ground or possibly orbital facility.
2 looks like a main corridor on a big ship (something beyond LBB2)
3 looks like a biggish shipboard corridor (i'd say it's a bit higher than I imagine)
4 looks like a typical shipboard corridor (again a little tall) but I wouldn't expect to see even this in a small craft, I'd expect something as cramped as today's aircraft aisles.

The only way you'd get battledress in a ship under 1000dt is by walking it through the flimsy partition walls.

Snagging weapons on the walls? That's why ship crews are issued with snub pistols.

IMTU that is!

PS. great artwork!

 

[Blue Ghost]

That girl's a little top-heavy if you ask me.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Blue Ghost:
That girl's a little top-heavy if you ask me.

When I set her up the first time, I didn't realize she was quite that top heavy.

 

[aramis]

Dan: Actually, GT does say all marines are BD trained (minimum half-point), as does Loren's JTAS article from the dawn of time.

No other ruleset does.BD is only that big in T20...

In MT it's not distinguishable at first glance from CA... There are excellent pics in a nummber of places. TD15 is pretty good, IIRCC If I recall the citation correctly.

 

[BetterThanLife]

If you look at the rules for rolling Marines, and the actual requirement to wear and use Battledress, you will find that most Marines rolled up using LBB4, or MT are very likely to have one of the skills required to wear and use Battledress. AFAIK T20 is the first ruleset where Marines really have a choice not to be capable of wearing Battledress. (Though they might not always get the skill, it was rare that anyone would avoid the charts that grant the necessary skill.)


In Earlier incarnations of the Traveller Rules there is also no difference in the level of protection between combat armor and battledress. The only practical difference between them is the ability to use the PGMP-13 and FGMP-14, which not all Marines will have that skill, in CT the effective "unlimited endurance." (And the effect that has because all of your blows can be at full strength instead of only the number of blows equal to your endurance rating can be at full strength in a combat. However CT combat, in my experience, never lasted long enough to strike more than 6 blows.)

IMHO there should have always been some size difference, if only to accomodate the powered limbs. Is there a difference in the level of protection between BD and CA in GT?

 

[Andrew Boulton]

In MT, CA and BD are identical. In TNE, BD is twice as good as CA. In T4, BD is slightly better than CA.

 

[BetterThanLife]

In TNE do you even have Imperial Marines? And while I never played TNE I was under the impression that TL13+ would be exceedingly rare, so both BD and CA would be very rare indeed.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

TNE has suits available from TL10+.

 

[barfoo]

IMTU: I got fed up with the 1.5 m squares in Traveller somewhere around 1990. I made my own design system based on 1m x 1m x 2.5 m squares, each dTon (2 squares) became 5 m3 and metric all the way. I also got much smaller and claustrophobic ships but had to fix the Suleiman as there cannot possibly be more than one floor on that ship.
Most published deckplans seems to be done with 1m squares in mind, notice the 2 squares long bunks, 1 square large acc couches etc.

 

[Icosahedron]

Originally posted by Backman:
IMTU: I got fed up with the 1.5 m squares in Traveller somewhere around 1990. I made my own design system based on 1m x 1m x 2.5 m squares, each dTon (2 squares) became 5 m3 and metric all the way.


Most published deckplans seems to be done with 1m squares in mind, notice the 2 squares long bunks, 1 square large acc couches etc.

Me too, before 1990 I think. I didn't go entirely metric though. I stuck with the 3m deck height cos I felt that by the time you had the deck plate itself, the grav plates and all the plumbing, air con, etc etc, you needed the best part of a metre to stuff it into. I use 1m corridors on smaller ships and 2m corridors where the ship can take it. You might even see a few 3m corridors on some capital ships. My standard cabins are 3m x 3m which are almost exactly 2dt, but again, bigger ships can afford more space.
I agree about the scale confusion with published deckplans, but the main thing was I couldn't be arsed counting in 1.5s.

Why didn't you go for 10m3 per dt? It would have been closer to canon and 'more metric'.

 

[Laryssa]

Honestly, I'd do away with grav plates, and make the ship's internal gravity a function of the reactionless thrusters instead. It all makes sense in a way. For instance, the T20 rules in ship building deal with volume instead of mass, just as the Jump Drive does. There is a certain volume of space occupied by the ship that the maneuver drive will accelerate, just like the Jump Drive pushes that volume through jump space, the manuever drive pushes the same volume through normal space. The occupants of the ship don't feel any of the acceleration through space, they only feel the normal artificial gravity the maneuver drive creates throughout the entire ship as a side benefit. If the ship stops and the ship's occupants are still held to the floor, the maneuver drive is still operating. If something were to happen to the maneuver drive and it were to stop functioning, then everyone inside would find themselves weightless. This brings the physics of the Traveller Universe into the T20 ship building system where you consider volume only and not mass.

 

[aramis]

Bachman: I was able to get a three deck wedgie type S, but the upper and lower are neither fulll height nor anywhere near as far forward as the Sulieman.