While creating the design system for 2320, I had considered going with larger crews for military vessels and smaller crews for civilian vessels. 15-man crews for a glorififed spaceplane didn't sit quite right. However, to have done so would have further widened the compatibility gap between 2300AD and 2320AD designs. (In this case compatability refers to look-and-feel, rather than actual stats.) It may still happen, but I wouldn't count on it.
Crew Complements
- Thread starter Jeddak
- Start date
It is my observation also that statistics of military ships in games (in general) tend to be undermanned, while civilian ships are overmanned, also.
Some of the Star Trek games (FASA, and Last Unicorn) felt "About Right". I am sure they modeled stats loosely on real-world numbers from Jane's or something.
Some of the Star Trek games (FASA, and Last Unicorn) felt "About Right". I am sure they modeled stats loosely on real-world numbers from Jane's or something.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Oh dear, look what I started by bringing in Bill.... 
Jeddak, you would do well to listen to our naval folks here. Loads of experience there. I think one of the issues is that so many movies and TV shows have used the sub paradigm that it kinda sticks in our heads as a way of thinking about space combat.
I think subs are a better fit (lifestyle-wise) purely because there is no "topside" in a spacecraft. You can't take a nightly stroll on deck after dinner to watch the sun set. "You live in a tin can, rookie, get used to those smells...."
Jeddak, you would do well to listen to our naval folks here. Loads of experience there. I think one of the issues is that so many movies and TV shows have used the sub paradigm that it kinda sticks in our heads as a way of thinking about space combat.
I think subs are a better fit (lifestyle-wise) purely because there is no "topside" in a spacecraft. You can't take a nightly stroll on deck after dinner to watch the sun set. "You live in a tin can, rookie, get used to those smells...."
Frtiz88,
He asked, I told him, he took exception, and I told him again.
I am a nasty, old, gray headed, fat man, aren't I?
I must agree with the other posters suggestion that our perceptions about space combat have been shaped more by TVs and movies than the actual rules of the combat games themselves. However, the fact remains that, because 2300AD ships do not fight like submarines, submarines are not good analogs for 2300AD spacecraft.
Have fun,
Bill
Hmm. You're right, what comes to game rules. Maybe I'm just thinking more on basis of my own ideas and improvements, how things SHOULD be in the game. And I don't like the idea of automatic detection. My point is that I'm trying to make game better.
Yeah, I'm not saying that they are the same thing, but space isn't a pool table either. Stars, planets, explosions etc. all block view "behind" them.
Ok, not that good example.
Anyway, my point is not to compare submarine warfare to that of 2300AD space crafts but to find similarities between 2300AD and anything historic/modern. Warfare is something of a mix of submarines and surface warfare, but life itself in spacecrafts is much closer to that in submarines than in surface vessels. As above is pointed out, you cannot take a solitary walk on deck looking at sunset.
Yes, there are many aspects of submarine warfare that don't fit to 2300AD, so is in surface warfare. And 2300AD differs from both of them because it's pure fiction. I repeat that what I'm trying to do is not to copy everything straight from the real life, but instead finding similarities to get some sense of realism to a game.
True, but I still think that living in submarines is quite close to living in spacecrafts. We got little carried away with the warfare part, but my main point is to make some sense to crew complements and to get some picture of living as spaceship crew member, to fix what is broken and to add some realism to the gaming experience.
Good point, and I agree. There are differences, too. Especially in fighting part.
My Kennedy example (and it was just that: example) didn't include any small craft crews or mechanics, since Kennedy usually doesn't have any. But its standard crew complement (according to source I used) is 91 (with marines platoon of 27) out of 100, so theres room for example flight crew of 2*2 and 2 mechanics for the small crafts, and after that it still has living quarters (and life support capacity) for three people, for example squadron commander and his aidees. So yes, starships can (and as you said, usually do) have small craft, and yes, I'm aware that submarines usually haven't. What comes to crew organization logic I used, IMHO it's the best I've seen so far.
I have,
- Jeddak
Jeddak,
My last few posts haven't been about your game specifically. Rather, they've been a general observation.
I remarked that the 'Submarine = Spacecraft' idea can be taken too far. You asked for an explanation of that remark and I answered. You asked for a further explanation and I answered again in greater detail.
What you do in your own games is your own business. "Is This Fun For Me And My Players?" is the only question you need ask yourself. The rest is inconsequential.
Have fun,
Bill
My last few posts haven't been about your game specifically. Rather, they've been a general observation.
I remarked that the 'Submarine = Spacecraft' idea can be taken too far. You asked for an explanation of that remark and I answered. You asked for a further explanation and I answered again in greater detail.
What you do in your own games is your own business. "Is This Fun For Me And My Players?" is the only question you need ask yourself. The rest is inconsequential.
Have fun,
Bill
The ranges of sensors are:
Grav: 150AU, but provides no location data
DSS: 1AU for a planet, no information given for ships, but we can assume it approximately 1 light minute since:
Black Globe Range is 30 hexes (1 light minute), at this range ships can detect each other, but have no other data (excepting speed)
Tactical Sensors can, in extremis, detect and locate a target 31 hexes away (range-16 active vs the lateral profile of a Kafer Alpha).
This provides a real concentration vs dispersion problem for a commander. See http://www.geocities.com/Area51/9292/2300/BG2k3.htm
It's worth noting, that a semi-official GDW rule stated remote objects could only be controlled 4 hexes away. It changes things slightly.
For SC ships to work together, some work needs to be done. The ranges are two great for radio communications (unless ships are willing to place very significant %'s of power into transmitters and have massive pylons ruining their stealth to receive them, and have a large electronic signature). The comms are tight beamed only. This means that to share tactical data every ship need to be tracking every other ship with a comms dish and a comms station with comms crew. With only 1 comms station, ships can only talk to one other ship, only share sensor and target data with them etc.
The obvious solution is the squadron flag, which is what the Battleships and Battlecruisers really are. A ship with a large array of comms station and a squadron command staff to co-ordinate missile strikes etc. Otherwise, strikes will fall at different times, allowing the target a point defence shot against each one rather than overloading the defences.
It certainly is possible to hide in SC, assuming noone is using active sensors, but only if powered down, and that still has a very significant chance of detection. Giant emitters or debris may help (i.e. each hex counts as two for ranging).
The best places to hide may be in the vicinity of gas giants or stars. There are certainly mentions of ships launching ambushes powered down in such situations, although you only really get one free shot, with forward deployed missiles and mines.
As for what needs manning when interstellar. I suspect the ship only requires the Helmsman and Navigator on the bridge, probably with the Officer of the Watch. The poor engineering staff meanwhile are busy trying to keep the ship from falling apart.
However, the portion of time ships spend the fast side of the FTL shelf is minimal. An average warship makes the average journey across the interstellar gap in less than 2 days. Then there's the dangerous buisness of crossing the shelf either at a Gas Giant in the outer system for a discharge (risking ambush and running into Sentinel fields, since this kind of area denial is the whole point of that weapons system), or crossing the main shelf, unable to run outsystem because the drive needs flushing (and the drive engineers are trying to keep it stable), knowing that if intercepted they must fight.
Finally for now, guns and submunitions probably fit the short range of torpedos and ASMs. However, the stutterwarp missile is a direct SLBM analogue. It's not of dissimilar size, delivers a nuclear warhead, and completely outranges close in weapons.
Grav: 150AU, but provides no location data
DSS: 1AU for a planet, no information given for ships, but we can assume it approximately 1 light minute since:
Black Globe Range is 30 hexes (1 light minute), at this range ships can detect each other, but have no other data (excepting speed)
Tactical Sensors can, in extremis, detect and locate a target 31 hexes away (range-16 active vs the lateral profile of a Kafer Alpha).
This provides a real concentration vs dispersion problem for a commander. See http://www.geocities.com/Area51/9292/2300/BG2k3.htm
It's worth noting, that a semi-official GDW rule stated remote objects could only be controlled 4 hexes away. It changes things slightly.
For SC ships to work together, some work needs to be done. The ranges are two great for radio communications (unless ships are willing to place very significant %'s of power into transmitters and have massive pylons ruining their stealth to receive them, and have a large electronic signature). The comms are tight beamed only. This means that to share tactical data every ship need to be tracking every other ship with a comms dish and a comms station with comms crew. With only 1 comms station, ships can only talk to one other ship, only share sensor and target data with them etc.
The obvious solution is the squadron flag, which is what the Battleships and Battlecruisers really are. A ship with a large array of comms station and a squadron command staff to co-ordinate missile strikes etc. Otherwise, strikes will fall at different times, allowing the target a point defence shot against each one rather than overloading the defences.
It certainly is possible to hide in SC, assuming noone is using active sensors, but only if powered down, and that still has a very significant chance of detection. Giant emitters or debris may help (i.e. each hex counts as two for ranging).
The best places to hide may be in the vicinity of gas giants or stars. There are certainly mentions of ships launching ambushes powered down in such situations, although you only really get one free shot, with forward deployed missiles and mines.
As for what needs manning when interstellar. I suspect the ship only requires the Helmsman and Navigator on the bridge, probably with the Officer of the Watch. The poor engineering staff meanwhile are busy trying to keep the ship from falling apart.
However, the portion of time ships spend the fast side of the FTL shelf is minimal. An average warship makes the average journey across the interstellar gap in less than 2 days. Then there's the dangerous buisness of crossing the shelf either at a Gas Giant in the outer system for a discharge (risking ambush and running into Sentinel fields, since this kind of area denial is the whole point of that weapons system), or crossing the main shelf, unable to run outsystem because the drive needs flushing (and the drive engineers are trying to keep it stable), knowing that if intercepted they must fight.
Finally for now, guns and submunitions probably fit the short range of torpedos and ASMs. However, the stutterwarp missile is a direct SLBM analogue. It's not of dissimilar size, delivers a nuclear warhead, and completely outranges close in weapons.
Thanks BMonnery, great post!
But before I make commets / questions, I would like to get one thing clear. Isn't there a mistake in in-system speeds?
Ship travelling warp 1 covers the distance of 1 AU (149597870691 meters, about 150 million kilometers) per day, which means 6,2 million kilometers per hour and about 100000 thousand kilometers per minute.
According to Star Cruiser rules ship is traveling twice its stutterwarp effieancy in hexes, per minute. That makes our example ship's speed 2 hex/min.
One hex being 2 light seconds, ship's speed should be 4 ls/min, which equals 1,2 million kilometers per minute. Which is more than 10 times the actual speed.
Am I right? Or is there something that I've missed?
That's one thing I don't like in Star Cruiser. IMHO it would be "better" that some kind of skill roll is needed for detection. Hmm, is there a different turn lenght for large scale fleet operations..?
In my Kennedy example there would be Officer of the Watch (Ops, Nav of Comms officer), Quartermaster (one of the bridge Cheif Petty Officers), helmsman, 3 engineers led by Petty Officer, and one operator for comms and computer stations. In TAC there would be full sensors crew (only two, though) and TAC officer (Gunnery, Sensors or Remote Control officer). Engineering watch consist of third of the available engineering crew, led by Engineering Officer of the Watch (Chief Engineer and other Engineering Officers). That makes minimum crew of 19 on duty round the clock. That times three makes 57, plus CO, XO and Weps, plus medical crew of 4, plus 27 marines, which makes total crew of 91.
- Jeddak
But before I make commets / questions, I would like to get one thing clear. Isn't there a mistake in in-system speeds?
Ship travelling warp 1 covers the distance of 1 AU (149597870691 meters, about 150 million kilometers) per day, which means 6,2 million kilometers per hour and about 100000 thousand kilometers per minute.
According to Star Cruiser rules ship is traveling twice its stutterwarp effieancy in hexes, per minute. That makes our example ship's speed 2 hex/min.
One hex being 2 light seconds, ship's speed should be 4 ls/min, which equals 1,2 million kilometers per minute. Which is more than 10 times the actual speed.
Am I right? Or is there something that I've missed?
Do planets etc. block black globe detection directly behind them? That would open some interesting tactics to close the distance to target.
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That's one thing I don't like in Star Cruiser. IMHO it would be "better" that some kind of skill roll is needed for detection. Hmm, is there a different turn lenght for large scale fleet operations..?
Hmm, I haven't heard of this, although I've been aware of problems of remote controling over long distances. This really makes things more interesting, since ships have to make "missile runs" and hang around long enough to get their missiles to targets. I think this explains the high opinions of Kennedys class.
The distance problem might get easier if 1 hex equals only 0,2 light minutes, as stated above in my calculations. Good point that ships can communicate with only one ship at time per comms station.
SC combat really differs from sub warfare in this, I admit. I think that ships need more comms stations and I would also like that there would be more sensors stations, for example sensor range/3.
Captains need big balls for that kind of hiding, since they are totally helpless during power down. This reminds me of movie U-96, where the Germans tried to go with current trough the Gibraltar Strait. But that's what I like in SC, the human factor.
I would add the bridge engineers to necessary crew, and at least near star systems sensors and comms operators too in case of incoming transmissions.
In my Kennedy example there would be Officer of the Watch (Ops, Nav of Comms officer), Quartermaster (one of the bridge Cheif Petty Officers), helmsman, 3 engineers led by Petty Officer, and one operator for comms and computer stations. In TAC there would be full sensors crew (only two, though) and TAC officer (Gunnery, Sensors or Remote Control officer). Engineering watch consist of third of the available engineering crew, led by Engineering Officer of the Watch (Chief Engineer and other Engineering Officers). That makes minimum crew of 19 on duty round the clock. That times three makes 57, plus CO, XO and Weps, plus medical crew of 4, plus 27 marines, which makes total crew of 91.
Except if 4 hex rule you mentioned is used.
- Jeddak
All good points. But, as I was reading this particular post and the others of the last few days, I began to wonder on the 2300/2320 canon. By this time, has mankind actually explored a nebula? Has a nebula been used "officially" as a battlefied in "official" history?
And if it has, what type of degradation to the sensor rules apply?
You're welcome!
I've been thinking about 2300AD novels myself, too. Great setting for quite realistic, yet fascinating science fiction. For this purpose detailed staship crews are also handy, as for combination of role playing and tactical space combat. It would make the tactical situation to look a bit different if player characters take over ships bridge. But does that pirate hunting warship know it before it starts shooting..?
- Jeddak
The scale in Star Cruiser is not exactly an error, nor has the scale issue ever appeared in any official errata. Scale in Star Cruiser was a conscious design decision for the war game, and was never intended to be applied to the rpg in general. I don't remember the reason for the design decision, but it wasn't an error, per se, but a conscious choice on the part of the designer.
Um, no. Sorry. It has never appeared in any official errata, and Joe Fugate specifically states:
One thing to be cautious of is taking tactical combat rules and assuming that the time scale, weapon range, and movement scale are all the same. Many combat rules use a distance scale oriented toward weapon range, with a time scale intended to compress a conclusive amount of gametime battle damage into a reasonable session time. The chosen movement scale may simply be one that "keeps the pieces on the map", and in effect is yet a third scale. This makes the game playable and doesn't really hurt the feel of the game, even though the movement scale does not match the time scale or the weapon range. Miniatures rules are particularly prone to the "three diffent scales" approach.
Since few battles last more than a day, the designers of a tactical game also don't worry about movement scale accuracy for long-distance travel. If you plot out the distance a tactical unit ( pick just about any tactical game you like) could move in a week's or a month's time, you will find the unit to be moving much faster than is reasonable.
Such is the case with the 2300AD starship combat ( and, the same is true, incidentally, of starship combat in GDW's other roleplaying games -- in case you had not noticed). You cannot use starship combat to guage in-system travel times over extended periods. The rate in AUs of 0.645 x ( LY speed) is the correct rate to use. -- Joe D. Fugate Sr.
One thing to be cautious of is taking tactical combat rules and assuming that the time scale, weapon range, and movement scale are all the same. Many combat rules use a distance scale oriented toward weapon range, with a time scale intended to compress a conclusive amount of gametime battle damage into a reasonable session time. The chosen movement scale may simply be one that "keeps the pieces on the map", and in effect is yet a third scale. This makes the game playable and doesn't really hurt the feel of the game, even though the movement scale does not match the time scale or the weapon range. Miniatures rules are particularly prone to the "three diffent scales" approach.
Since few battles last more than a day, the designers of a tactical game also don't worry about movement scale accuracy for long-distance travel. If you plot out the distance a tactical unit ( pick just about any tactical game you like) could move in a week's or a month's time, you will find the unit to be moving much faster than is reasonable.
Such is the case with the 2300AD starship combat ( and, the same is true, incidentally, of starship combat in GDW's other roleplaying games -- in case you had not noticed). You cannot use starship combat to guage in-system travel times over extended periods. The rate in AUs of 0.645 x ( LY speed) is the correct rate to use. -- Joe D. Fugate Sr.
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