CT and Experience

[Supplement Four]

My next project for my game (having pretty much completed the sensor rules) is to beef up the CT experience rules.


OUTLINE OF RULE DEVELOPMENT

I want something that mirrors the Book 3 rules (somewhat).

I want character improvement to mirror character generation (average one skill per game year or so...maybe a little more generous than that considering the character is not "adventuring" rather than living some boring old life).

I'm going to use a character's Experience score (INT + EDU) to make skill advancement harder for those who's total skill levels are higher than their experience scores.

No skill can be higher than a character's EDU.

EDU can be raised, but it can never be raised higher than INT.

And, I'm going to have some type of determination roll (described in Book 3), but it'll be based on INT. And, a second roll, based on EDU, will be required as a check to see if advancement succeeded (if the character got the new skill level).

I'm picturing advancement as a four step process:

STEP 1: Character receives Experience Points (I might call these Experience Credits) from (A) the player's quality of play during the game or (B) some type of study program/practice (trainer, instructor, class, computer sim, whatever). A character can gain XP by either studying or as a reward for good game play by the player.

STEP 2: Elligilbe skills are noted for advancement (either skills the character uses a lot during the game...or the subject of his study), and a number of XP are spent as a pre-requisite to advancement (I'm thinking something like 10 points per level of new skill desired...and 5 points for a Level-0 skill).

STEP 3: A determination roll is made, based on INT. (How many times, in life, do we say we're going to do something, like loose weight or work out or get that degree) yet we don't follow through with it. This roll will simulate that.

STEP 4: After a period of time has been spent studying/practicing (and XP points have been spent), a second roll will be made, based on the character's EDU, that will determine if, indeed, the character has earned a new skill level or new skill.

 

[Supplement Four]

My next project for my game (having pretty much completed the sensor rules) is to beef up the CT experience rules.


OUTLINE OF RULE DEVELOPMENT

I want something that mirrors the Book 3 rules (somewhat).

I want character improvement to mirror character generation (average one skill per game year or so...maybe a little more generous than that considering the character is not "adventuring" rather than living some boring old life).

I'm going to use a character's Experience score (INT + EDU) to make skill advancement harder for those who's total skill levels are higher than their experience scores.

No skill can be higher than a character's EDU.

EDU can be raised, but it can never be raised higher than INT.

And, I'm going to have some type of determination roll (described in Book 3), but it'll be based on INT. And, a second roll, based on EDU, will be required as a check to see if advancement succeeded (if the character got the new skill level).

I'm picturing advancement as a four step process:

STEP 1: Character receives Experience Points (I might call these Experience Credits) from (A) the player's quality of play during the game or (B) some type of study program/practice (trainer, instructor, class, computer sim, whatever). A character can gain XP by either studying or as a reward for good game play by the player.

STEP 2: Elligilbe skills are noted for advancement (either skills the character uses a lot during the game...or the subject of his study), and a number of XP are spent as a pre-requisite to advancement (I'm thinking something like 10 points per level of new skill desired...and 5 points for a Level-0 skill).

STEP 3: A determination roll is made, based on INT. (How many times, in life, do we say we're going to do something, like loose weight or work out or get that degree) yet we don't follow through with it. This roll will simulate that.

STEP 4: After a period of time has been spent studying/practicing (and XP points have been spent), a second roll will be made, based on the character's EDU, that will determine if, indeed, the character has earned a new skill level or new skill.

 

[Ron]

A few notes:
</font>

• EDU might be to high for a realistic limit to skill levels;</font>
• I see no reason why EDU cannot be higher than INT. I've met quite a few idiots with a Ph.D., as I say to my students, getting a degree is much more a matter of determination than brillantism (perhaps "idiots" is too strong, but I'm sure you got the picture);</font>
• I would make harder to older people to learn new stuff; and</font>
• In the same way, I would make harder to learn higher levels in any skill.</font>

I hope this might be useful.

 

[Ron]

A few notes:
</font>

• EDU might be to high for a realistic limit to skill levels;</font>
• I see no reason why EDU cannot be higher than INT. I've met quite a few idiots with a Ph.D., as I say to my students, getting a degree is much more a matter of determination than brillantism (perhaps "idiots" is too strong, but I'm sure you got the picture);</font>
• I would make harder to older people to learn new stuff; and</font>
• In the same way, I would make harder to learn higher levels in any skill.</font>

I hope this might be useful.

 

[Supplement Four]

A few more broad strokes...


AWARDING XP:

As stated above, character can gain XP from study and/or practice (appropriate to the skill). Trainers or instructors may be involved (this course is with these many XP).

And, the character can earn XP from the player's gameplay during the game.

Consider the quality of play performed by the player during the game session. Did he play in character? Did he contribute good ideas to solve the problems the group faced during the night's game session?

0 XP: Base Award. Characters were not involved, played little, or otherwise did nothing to contribute to the success of the party during the game session.

1 XP: Awarded for those characters who did a standard, competent job during the game session.

3 XP: Awarded for those characters who stood out during the game session.

5 XP: Rarely awarded - for those characters who were extremely memorable during the night's game session.

7 XP: Extremely rarely awarded - for the type of play you will remember the rest of your life and always bring up when gamers are sittin' around, shootin' the shit, and talkin' war stories.


CHARACTER'S PART IN THIS

A good player will consistenting get a lot of XP by always playing in character and consistently coming up with great ideas during the game session.

But, a character's stats will come into play in this experience system as well.

Each XP awarded the character[/b} gains the character an INT check. Each XP point is checked, and those that are represented by successful rolls will be kept.

So...

A great player playing a charcter with low INT will get a lot of checks, but will keep less XP because his character "ain't so smart".

A poor layer playing a character with high INT won't get many chances to make the XP check, but when he does, he'll get to keep it.

A great player with a smart (high INT) character will be an advancing fool under this system.


ELELLIGIBLE SKILLS:

When a character takes a class or practics a specific skill, then, obviously the skill being studied/practiced is elelligible for advancement.

During the game, though, only skills that a character uses often will be elelligible for advancement. If a character doesn't use a skill a lot, then experience isn't going to help that character improve that skill (he'll have to take a class or something).

Each time a Critical Success is rolled on a UGM task, make a tick mark next to the skill.

When it comes time to increase skills (enough XP are available to pay the XP cost), only those skills that have tick marks can be attempted for advancement (otherwise, the study/practice method must be used).

 

[Supplement Four]

A few more broad strokes...


AWARDING XP:

As stated above, character can gain XP from study and/or practice (appropriate to the skill). Trainers or instructors may be involved (this course is with these many XP).

And, the character can earn XP from the player's gameplay during the game.

Consider the quality of play performed by the player during the game session. Did he play in character? Did he contribute good ideas to solve the problems the group faced during the night's game session?

0 XP: Base Award. Characters were not involved, played little, or otherwise did nothing to contribute to the success of the party during the game session.

1 XP: Awarded for those characters who did a standard, competent job during the game session.

3 XP: Awarded for those characters who stood out during the game session.

5 XP: Rarely awarded - for those characters who were extremely memorable during the night's game session.

7 XP: Extremely rarely awarded - for the type of play you will remember the rest of your life and always bring up when gamers are sittin' around, shootin' the shit, and talkin' war stories.


CHARACTER'S PART IN THIS

A good player will consistenting get a lot of XP by always playing in character and consistently coming up with great ideas during the game session.

But, a character's stats will come into play in this experience system as well.

Each XP awarded the character[/b} gains the character an INT check. Each XP point is checked, and those that are represented by successful rolls will be kept.

So...

A great player playing a charcter with low INT will get a lot of checks, but will keep less XP because his character "ain't so smart".

A poor layer playing a character with high INT won't get many chances to make the XP check, but when he does, he'll get to keep it.

A great player with a smart (high INT) character will be an advancing fool under this system.


ELELLIGIBLE SKILLS:

When a character takes a class or practics a specific skill, then, obviously the skill being studied/practiced is elelligible for advancement.

During the game, though, only skills that a character uses often will be elelligible for advancement. If a character doesn't use a skill a lot, then experience isn't going to help that character improve that skill (he'll have to take a class or something).

Each time a Critical Success is rolled on a UGM task, make a tick mark next to the skill.

When it comes time to increase skills (enough XP are available to pay the XP cost), only those skills that have tick marks can be attempted for advancement (otherwise, the study/practice method must be used).

 

[Supplement Four]

SUMMARY


--1-- Players will be rewarded for great play with XP. Players who consistently play well will advance their characters more often than player who do not.


--2-- A character's natural ability will be addressed when INT is checked to see which XP are kept. High INT characters will keep more XP than low INT characters.


--3-- And, a character will only be able to use his experience improve skills that he typically uses (you won't see a character that never uses AutoPistol all-of-a-sudden show up with an AutoPistol skill). If a player wants to improve a character skill (or learn a new skill) that the character does not use often, then training, practice, or formalized learning are open to him.

 

[Supplement Four]

SUMMARY


--1-- Players will be rewarded for great play with XP. Players who consistently play well will advance their characters more often than player who do not.


--2-- A character's natural ability will be addressed when INT is checked to see which XP are kept. High INT characters will keep more XP than low INT characters.


--3-- And, a character will only be able to use his experience improve skills that he typically uses (you won't see a character that never uses AutoPistol all-of-a-sudden show up with an AutoPistol skill). If a player wants to improve a character skill (or learn a new skill) that the character does not use often, then training, practice, or formalized learning are open to him.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Ron:
EDU might be to high for a realistic limit to skill levels;

All it will do is limit low EDU characters. I don't want EDU-2 characters getting Level-5 skills.

EDIT CLARIFACATION: It doesn't make sense to me, for example, that a EDU-2 character also be a Medic-5. I'm sure I could come up with a reason for specific cases, but, typically, a Medic-5 has to go to medical school and should have a higher EDU.

A character will have to improve his EDU first, then improve his skill (if he wants to go above Level-2, in this case). And, since the system will somewhat mirror chargen, improving a stat and then a skill will take a loooonnnnngg time.

[*]I see no reason why EDU cannot be higher than INT. I've met quite a few idiots with a Ph.D., as I say to my students, getting a degree is much more a matter of determination than brillantism (perhaps "idiots" is too strong, but I'm sure you got the picture);

That part, I got right out of the Traveller Book experience rules. I want to (1) mirror and enhance the offical CT experience system, and (2) I think it's a good rule. It's still possible to see a character with higher EDU than INT because he was generated that way. This rule is only saying that improvement won't let your character go above that INT limit.

[*]I would make harder to older people to learn new stuff;

Now, that's a good idea. That's the reason I posted this here--to hear influential ideas like that.

Thanks.

Maybe factor age into the roll?

So, age and Experience score will both be a factor in what is used to throw determination and for the award of the new skill.

[*]In the same way, I would make harder to learn higher levels in any skill.

Yeah, I like this too. You don't see too many skills over Level-3 in CT. These experience rules have to mirror that as well.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Ron:
EDU might be to high for a realistic limit to skill levels;

All it will do is limit low EDU characters. I don't want EDU-2 characters getting Level-5 skills.

EDIT CLARIFACATION: It doesn't make sense to me, for example, that a EDU-2 character also be a Medic-5. I'm sure I could come up with a reason for specific cases, but, typically, a Medic-5 has to go to medical school and should have a higher EDU.

A character will have to improve his EDU first, then improve his skill (if he wants to go above Level-2, in this case). And, since the system will somewhat mirror chargen, improving a stat and then a skill will take a loooonnnnngg time.

[*]I see no reason why EDU cannot be higher than INT. I've met quite a few idiots with a Ph.D., as I say to my students, getting a degree is much more a matter of determination than brillantism (perhaps "idiots" is too strong, but I'm sure you got the picture);

That part, I got right out of the Traveller Book experience rules. I want to (1) mirror and enhance the offical CT experience system, and (2) I think it's a good rule. It's still possible to see a character with higher EDU than INT because he was generated that way. This rule is only saying that improvement won't let your character go above that INT limit.

[*]I would make harder to older people to learn new stuff;

Now, that's a good idea. That's the reason I posted this here--to hear influential ideas like that.

Thanks.

Maybe factor age into the roll?

So, age and Experience score will both be a factor in what is used to throw determination and for the award of the new skill.

[*]In the same way, I would make harder to learn higher levels in any skill.

Yeah, I like this too. You don't see too many skills over Level-3 in CT. These experience rules have to mirror that as well.

 

[Ron]

Originally posted by WJP:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ron:
EDU might be to high for a realistic limit to skill levels;

All it will do is limit low EDU characters. I don't want EDU-2 characters getting Level-5 skills.

EDIT CLARIFACATION: It doesn't make sense to me, for example, that a EDU-2 character also be a Medic-5. I'm sure I could come up with a reason for specific cases, but, typically, a Medic-5 has to go to medical school and should have a higher EDU.
[...]</font>[/QUOTE]However some skills are not related to education. A soldier may have a high Gun Cbt skill without much education. Additionally, using your example, I can imagine running a game where some sort of traditional healer might have a Medic skill higher than his education. You can also take the historical example of some uneducated but very intuitive people that were capable to contribute at higher mathematics.

Originally posted by WJP:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />[*]I see no reason why EDU cannot be higher than INT. I've met quite a few idiots with a Ph.D., as I say to my students, getting a degree is much more a matter of determination than brillantism (perhaps "idiots" is too strong, but I'm sure you got the picture);

That part, I got right out of the Traveller Book experience rules. I want to (1) mirror and enhance the offical CT experience system, and (2) I think it's a good rule. It's still possible to see a character with higher EDU than INT because he was generated that way. This rule is only saying that improvement won't let your character go above that INT limit.</font>[/QUOTE]Well, if it is a purely gamist rule then I have no problem with it. However, my experience with undergraduate and graduate students over the last ten years really showed me that dedication can overcome intelligence and I really believe that students with at least average intelligence can learn almost everything, although they will need more time than their smarter coleagues.

Originally posted by WJP:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />[*]I would make harder to older people to learn new stuff;

Now, that's a good idea. That's the reason I posted this here--to hear influential ideas like that.

Thanks.

Maybe factor age into the roll?

So, age and Experience score will both be a factor in what is used to throw determination and for the award of the new skill.[...]
</font>[/QUOTE]I would use the number of terms to make things easier.

 

[Ron]

Originally posted by WJP:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ron:
EDU might be to high for a realistic limit to skill levels;

All it will do is limit low EDU characters. I don't want EDU-2 characters getting Level-5 skills.

EDIT CLARIFACATION: It doesn't make sense to me, for example, that a EDU-2 character also be a Medic-5. I'm sure I could come up with a reason for specific cases, but, typically, a Medic-5 has to go to medical school and should have a higher EDU.
[...]</font>[/QUOTE]However some skills are not related to education. A soldier may have a high Gun Cbt skill without much education. Additionally, using your example, I can imagine running a game where some sort of traditional healer might have a Medic skill higher than his education. You can also take the historical example of some uneducated but very intuitive people that were capable to contribute at higher mathematics.

Originally posted by WJP:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />[*]I see no reason why EDU cannot be higher than INT. I've met quite a few idiots with a Ph.D., as I say to my students, getting a degree is much more a matter of determination than brillantism (perhaps "idiots" is too strong, but I'm sure you got the picture);

That part, I got right out of the Traveller Book experience rules. I want to (1) mirror and enhance the offical CT experience system, and (2) I think it's a good rule. It's still possible to see a character with higher EDU than INT because he was generated that way. This rule is only saying that improvement won't let your character go above that INT limit.</font>[/QUOTE]Well, if it is a purely gamist rule then I have no problem with it. However, my experience with undergraduate and graduate students over the last ten years really showed me that dedication can overcome intelligence and I really believe that students with at least average intelligence can learn almost everything, although they will need more time than their smarter coleagues.

Originally posted by WJP:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />[*]I would make harder to older people to learn new stuff;

Now, that's a good idea. That's the reason I posted this here--to hear influential ideas like that.

Thanks.

Maybe factor age into the roll?

So, age and Experience score will both be a factor in what is used to throw determination and for the award of the new skill.[...]
</font>[/QUOTE]I would use the number of terms to make things easier.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Hmmmm, I would worry about a player feeling slighted because his slope-foreheaded killer can't improve his killin' skills while the brainiac navigator can. Especially if he's the better role-player (and, hence, gets more XP). This is also why I don't like the INT+EDU limit on skill levels.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Hmmmm, I would worry about a player feeling slighted because his slope-foreheaded killer can't improve his killin' skills while the brainiac navigator can. Especially if he's the better role-player (and, hence, gets more XP). This is also why I don't like the INT+EDU limit on skill levels.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

On age, try incorporating the aging charts into the roll for learning. Maybe for each roll above 7+, use a -0.3333DM? (You'll have to translate that into UGM.)

 

[Fritz_Brown]

On age, try incorporating the aging charts into the roll for learning. Maybe for each roll above 7+, use a -0.3333DM? (You'll have to translate that into UGM.)

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Ron:
However some skills are not related to education. A soldier may have a high Gun Cbt skill without much education.

Sure, but EDU is more than just a statistic of a character's level of education (otherwise, every character with a HS diploma would have one stat, every character with a Bachelors would have another, every character with a Masters would have another....it would be like the SOC rankings).

EDU is really a measure of how well a character uses what he learns.

I've met some people with Bachelor degrees that aren't as good at applying themselves as people who never went to college.

EDU is learned knowledge (and ability to use that learned knowlege). You can have a character with EDU-5 that went to college, and you can have one with EDU-C that didn't.

The EDU-C character is better at applying what he knows.

In your example, your combat soldier may have dropped out of school in the 4th grade, but he's worldly, streetwise, and smart enough to be good at applying the things he's learned (wheter that be book learning or physical body memory in holding his breath, aiming well, and squeezing the trigger).

So, EDU would apply to a character increasing his Rifle skill, as an example.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Ron:
However some skills are not related to education. A soldier may have a high Gun Cbt skill without much education.

Sure, but EDU is more than just a statistic of a character's level of education (otherwise, every character with a HS diploma would have one stat, every character with a Bachelors would have another, every character with a Masters would have another....it would be like the SOC rankings).

EDU is really a measure of how well a character uses what he learns.

I've met some people with Bachelor degrees that aren't as good at applying themselves as people who never went to college.

EDU is learned knowledge (and ability to use that learned knowlege). You can have a character with EDU-5 that went to college, and you can have one with EDU-C that didn't.

The EDU-C character is better at applying what he knows.

In your example, your combat soldier may have dropped out of school in the 4th grade, but he's worldly, streetwise, and smart enough to be good at applying the things he's learned (wheter that be book learning or physical body memory in holding his breath, aiming well, and squeezing the trigger).

So, EDU would apply to a character increasing his Rifle skill, as an example.

 

[Ron]

Ok, I accept your correction that EDU is not necessarily a statistic of formal education. However, as you linked EDU with INT, it becames impossible to a not very smart person to be a sharpshooter or a skilled sport player. Many of the skills available in Traveller are totally unrelated to intelligence or education and I think that any skill improvement rules should take this in account.

 

[Ron]

Ok, I accept your correction that EDU is not necessarily a statistic of formal education. However, as you linked EDU with INT, it becames impossible to a not very smart person to be a sharpshooter or a skilled sport player. Many of the skills available in Traveller are totally unrelated to intelligence or education and I think that any skill improvement rules should take this in account.