CT Book 2, CT Book 3, CT Book5, and Supplement 7

[snrdg082102]

Hello all,

In my other topic threads when I was trying to verify that the designs in Supplement 7 the biggest issue was that of the Technology Levels (TLs).

CT Book 2 1977 did not, that I have found anyway, reference TLs for any of the ship designs included in the book as examples. Of course when I could not get the CT Book 2 design and construction rules to work I moved to CT Book 3 1977 and managed to overlook the technological levels chart on pp. 10-11.

In 1979 CT Book 5 First edition was released which I picked at my local game shop when it arrived in Hawaii. I attempted to follow the design and construction rules in the book without success or picking up on the different TL requirements than what was in CT Book 3 1977.

In 1981 I was in San Diego, CA where I picked up the 1981 copies of CT Books 1 - 3, CT Book 4 1978, and CT Book 5 1980. I once again tried my hand at the CT Book 2 1981 design and construction rules with the same result of not being able to recreate the examples. I had better luck with CT Book 5 1980, unfortunately I still overlooked the differences between the CT Book 3 1981 and CT Book 5 TLs for jump drives.

After I got through CT Book 5 1980 with success CT Book 2 1981 and CT Book 3 1981 gathered dust. This brings the timeline up to now and my failed attempt to get past Supplement 7 1980.

Neither Supplement 7 or CT Book 2 1981 refer to any TL requirements and I still overlooked the CT Book 5 and CT Book 3 TL issue until I asked for help with the Supplement 7 express boat. The first member to help indicated that the express boat was designed using CT Book 2 1977 edition and not the 1981 I was using. Then about the same time I stumbled onto the CT Book 3 TL chart again the problem between CT Book 5 and CT Book 3 was mentioned.

My standard comment as to why ship designs are hard or impossible to recreate using the design and construction rules is that the authors or designers probably used different drafts and/or had to meet a deadline resulting in not going back to do a recheck of the design.

I've made an attempt at altering the Technological Levels chart in CT Book 3 1981 with the CT Book 5 1980 TLs in the design and construction rules.

Unfortunately, I am not sure which File Library sub-topic the Word document should be placed in.

If anyone is interested in looking over the revised CT Book 3 TL chart please contact via email and I'll provide a copy for your review.

Respectfully,

 

[robject]

My standard comment as to why ship designs are hard or impossible to recreate using the design and construction rules is that the authors or designers probably used different drafts and/or had to meet a deadline resulting in not going back to do a recheck of the design.

To be sure.

Another reason is the dilemma of complexity: the closer a system resembles math homework, the less likely it is to engage people's attention -- edge cases notwithstanding. And yet, it is people who are more engaged with math who tend to create design systems that have useful, operational outputs. On the Gripping Hand, those more complete systems are more likely to be cluttered beyond the patience of most of us.

Example: Marc Miller, a sociologist by education, wants to design a starship.

Let's say he uses High Guard. Can he do it? Sure. Does he enjoy making HG ships? Probably tolerates it. How likely is he to make mistakes? It's probable. How likely is he to care about these errors? Not very.

How likely is he to use Fire, Fusion, and Steel? Vanishingly small chance.

He probably has no problems at all using Book 2, and may even enjoy using it, even though it leaves unanswered many operational questions, only works for a subset of small starships, and has some bothersome assumptions.

 

[rancke]

He probably has no problems at all using Book 2, and may even enjoy using it, even though it leaves unanswered many operational questions, only works for a subset of small starships, and has some bothersome assumptions.

There's nothing wrong with a simplified system, as long as you keep in mind that it's simplified. The problems arise when you forget that and/or forget what the simplifications are and try to apply them to a different level of complexity and/or different subject matter.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

[rant mode]My biggest gripes with the absurdity of having so many different design systems is that the authors appear to have made no effort to reconcile the differences and mistakes despite the opportunity to do so.

Let's assume for a moment that the LBB3 TL scale and the letter drives and performance of LBB2 are only possible once a society has achieved TL15. You can then reconcile the HG TL drive breakpoints within the setting and still have the letter drives.

I am at a total loss as to how to reconcile the mistake they made switching maneuver drive and jump drive size in HG1 when compared with LBB2, I am at even more of a loss as to why this mistake wasn't corrected when HG2 was printed.

Or let's assume HG2 is the new paradigm, why then does the revision of CT in 81 stick to the original CT paradigm (sort o)f instead of using the HG2 parameters?

Now add to the mix designs which just can not be built using any published CT rules (Annic Nova and Gazelle CE) and you have a completely broken mess.

As an aside have you noticed that computer TL is also a TL restriction for 81 LBB2 designs? While you can have a jump 4 ship at TL9, you can't make it work until you invent the model 4 computer at TL10...

Aaaarrrrgggggghhhhhhh.[/end rant]

That feels so much better

 

[robject]

[rant mode]My biggest gripes with the absurdity of having so many different design systems is that the authors appear to have made no effort to reconcile the differences and mistakes despite the opportunity to do so.

Vision shifts with time and as authors change. And, internal consistency trumps backwards compatibility.

I suspect one person (Marc?) wrote Book 2 design. We know Marc was involved with High Guard, but not the only guy. We know Frank designed Striker. From these three spring all subsequent Traveller ship design systems, and I suppose these three circumscribe the three "starship design" attitudes in Traveller.

I am at a total loss as to how to reconcile the mistake they made switching maneuver drive and jump drive size in HG1 when compared with LBB2, I am at even more of a loss as to why this mistake wasn't corrected when HG2 was printed.

Ever since you revealed that to me, so long ago, I had thought about it, and I suggest that this change was not a mistake, but was intentional. It lessens the disadvantage of starships against monitors.

Now add to the mix designs which just can not be built using any published CT rules (Annic Nova and Gazelle CE) and you have a completely broken mess.

I can hear them saying "...as an exercise to the reader." Because you have engaged with the material for so long, I think they have succeeded in a way.

 

[rancke]

Ever since you revealed that to me, so long ago, I had thought about it, and I suggest that this change was not a mistake, but was intentional. It lessens the disadvantage of starships against monitors.

Fine. Then retcon Book 2 designs. Don't allow MgT or T5 to perpetuate the Book 2 paradigm. Just switch those costs around, already.

Alternatively, keep Book 2 drives as alternate technologies that can be used on ships up to 5000T and allow hybrid designs!!!


Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Afternoon PST all,

Thank you for the rapid response.

Technically, CT Book 5 does allow a hybrid of sorts since CT Book 2 jump drives, maneuver drives, and power plants can be used in Book 5 on hulls up to 5,000 tons. The Engineering crew is calculated using CT Book 5 while using Book 2 fuel requirements.

Please note, I asked if anyone would be interested in reviewing my attempt at revising the CT Book 3 Technological Chart not to continue the disagreement of what should or should not be kept in the thirty plus years of Traveller.

Again, thank you for the quick replies.

 

[rancke]

Technically, CT Book 5 does allow a hybrid of sorts since CT Book 2 jump drives, maneuver drives, and power plants can be used in Book 5 on hulls up to 5,000 tons. The Engineering crew is calculated using CT Book 5 while using Book 2 fuel requirements.

I thought it was vessels up to 1000T that could be built according to Book 2, and that it was a choice of either or. I can't find the grandfathering rule to check. The only rule in that general area that I can find is the one that says that manning of ships under 1000T goes by Book 2 rules, ships above that by Book 5 (which, incidentally, disallows the Book 2 Kinunir, at least as far as manning is concerned ).

Can anyone provide a quote of the grandfathering rule in HG?


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

...As an aside have you noticed that computer TL is also a TL restriction for 81 LBB2 designs? While you can have a jump 4 ship at TL9, you can't make it work until you invent the model 4 computer at TL10...

Explains why the test pilots never came back. :devil:

I thought it was vessels up to 1000T that could be built according to Book 2, and that it was a choice of either or. I can't find the grandfathering rule to check. The only rule in that general area that I can find is the one that says that manning of ships under 1000T goes by Book 2 rules, ships above that by Book 5 (which, incidentally, disallows the Book 2 Kinunir, at least as far as manning is concerned ).

Can anyone provide a quote of the grandfathering rule in HG?


Hans

Relevant references to Book 2 in HG-II include:

"The ship design and construction system given in Book 2 must be considered to be a standard system for providing ships using off-the-shelf components. It is not superceded by any system given in this book; instead this book presents a system for construction of very large vessels, and includes provisions for use of the system with smaller ships." (Pg. 18; emphasis added)

"It is possible to include standard drives (at standard prices) from Book 2 if they will otherwise meet the ship's requirements; such drives use fuel as indicated by the formulas in Book 2." (Pg. 22; in other words, hybrids are allowed.)

"Drives obtained from Book 2 require use of the fuel formulas from Book 2." (Pg. 27)

I find no statement setting limits on what Book 2 material may be used.

I do know that I've found it easier to accept Book 2 designs of 1000 dTons and below because those don't present drives that are clearly superior to their Book-5 counterparts. However, there's nothing in Book 5 that prevents you from grabbing the 110 dTon 200 MCr Hercules Jump-W "off the shelf" and using it in your Book 5 5000 dTonner in place of that 100 dTon 400 MCr High Guard luxury model - or for that matter from grabbing the 64 dTon 168 MCr Hercules power plant (which needs only 10 dTons of fuel) and using it in place of the TL 15 power plant that wants 50 dTons of fuel. Personally, it gives me the heebie jeebies, but apparently it's within the rules as written, and I can't find anything in Errata that's changed that.

Of course, that does leave us with such anomalies as the scout with its Power Plant A needing twice as much fuel as the Free Trader with its identical power plant.

Add:
And, yes, that does mean you can make Jump-4 at TL 10 for a ship of 400 dTons or less. You can even hit jump 6 at TL 12, assuming a ship of no more than 2000 dTons using Book 2 drives.

 

[aramis]

Bk5-'79 says:

The ship design and construction system given in Book 2 must be considered to be a standard system for providing small craft using off the shelf components. It is not superseded by the system given in this book; instead, this book presents a system for construction of very large vessels, and includes provisions for use of the system with small craft.​

It lacks HG-80's allowance for mix-n-match drives.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening Hans,

I thought it was vessels up to 1000T that could be built according to Book 2, and that it was a choice of either or. I can't find the grandfathering rule to check. The only rule in that general area that I can find is the one that says that manning of ships under 1000T goes by Book 2 rules, ships above that by Book 5 (which, incidentally, disallows the Book 2 Kinunir, at least as far as manning is concerned ).

Can anyone provide a quote of the grandfathering rule in HG?


Hans

Carlobrand covered the CT Book 5 material and I'll include the Book 2

The Drive Potential Table on p. 22 of CT Book 2 1981 goes up to 5,000.

CT Book 2 1981 p. 20-21 Building Ships
1. Custom hulls with mass displacements other the hull sizes shown on the drive potential table are treated as the next larger size. The maximum hull possible in these rules is 5,000 tons.

CT Book 5 1981, per p. 32, computes the crew size for hulls 1,000 tons or less using CT Book 2 rules.

The first mention about the Kinunir is in CT Adventure 1 with a copyright of 1979 and could have been done using CT Book 2 1977 design and construction rules except for details that point to CT Book 5.

CT Adventure 1: The Kinunir p. 10 lists the ship with two particle accelerator weapons mounted in turrets and a computer with a fibre-optic back-up network. The fibre-optics for the computer is on p. 29 of CT Book 5 HG 1979 2nd printing. Unfortunately, CT Book 5 1979 only has particle accelerator weapons in 10, 50, and 100 ton bays. Based on having particle accelerator turrets the Kinunir in Adventure 1 appears to have used a draft copy of CT Book 5 1980 design and construction rules.

Another hint that the Adventure 1 Kinunir was using the CT Book 5 1980 draft is the Grave APC which is not in either CT Book 2 1977, CT Book 3 1977 or CT Book 5 1979. I've checked and probably missed any mention of the Grav APC is CT Book 4 Mercenary 1978.

I've done a rough design of the Kinunir using CT Book 2 1977 without applying CT Book 3 TL and the particle accelerators the design has about 70 tons available and a crew of 62 not including the pinnace or grav APC crews.

Since the Adventure 1 Kinunir does not use drive type letters I'm guessing that the ship was designed using CT Book 5. I'm leaning towards CT Book 5 1980 based on the particle accelerators.

 

[Carlobrand]

Bk5-'79 says:

The ship design and construction system given in Book 2 must be considered to be a standard system for providing small craft using off the shelf components. It is not superseded by the system given in this book; instead, this book presents a system for construction of very large vessels, and includes provisions for use of the system with small craft.​

It lacks HG-80's allowance for mix-n-match drives.

Do you have any idea how many years I've been playing this game and reading these rules, and it never occurred to me to try a mix-n-match?

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening aramis,

Bk5-'79 says:

The ship design and construction system given in Book 2 must be considered to be a standard system for providing small craft using off the shelf components. It is not superseded by the system given in this book; instead, this book presents a system for construction of very large vessels, and includes provisions for use of the system with small craft.​

It lacks HG-80's allowance for mix-n-match drives.

The quoted information is on page 18 of CT Book 5 1979, just an addition which took me a couple of minutes to find.

 

[GypsyComet]

Do you have any idea how many years I've been playing this game and reading these rules, and it never occurred to me to try a mix-n-match?

I prefer not to (among the sources in this discussion), since the differences that aren't really obvious like cost and size are inferred, and you have to add explanatory text to justify funky looking numbers. Ultimately, such designs are less shareable because not everyone buys into the idea that mix-n-match is a good idea.

I may take other ship components from any edition that has them, but I single-source drives.

 

[Carlobrand]

...
The first mention about the Kinunir is in CT Adventure 1 with a copyright of 1979 and could have been done using CT Book 2 1977 design and construction rules except for details that point to CT Book 5.

CT Adventure 1: The Kinunir p. 10 lists the ship with two particle accelerator weapons mounted in turrets and a computer with a fibre-optic back-up network. The fibre-optics for the computer is on p. 29 of CT Book 5 HG 1979 2nd printing. Unfortunately, CT Book 5 1979 only has particle accelerator weapons in 10, 50, and 100 ton bays. Based on having particle accelerator turrets the Kinunir in Adventure 1 appears to have used a draft copy of CT Book 5 1980 design and construction rules.

Another hint that the Adventure 1 Kinunir was using the CT Book 5 1980 draft is the Grave APC which is not in either CT Book 2 1977, CT Book 3 1977 or CT Book 5 1979. I've checked and probably missed any mention of the Grav APC is CT Book 4 Mercenary 1978.

I've done a rough design of the Kinunir using CT Book 2 1977 without applying CT Book 3 TL and the particle accelerators the design has about 70 tons available and a crew of 62 not including the pinnace or grav APC crews.

Since the Adventure 1 Kinunir does not use drive type letters I'm guessing that the ship was designed using CT Book 5. I'm leaning towards CT Book 5 1980 based on the particle accelerators.

It's hard to tell. Kinunir also has the ship with missile magazines (pg. 26). Then there are the drop capsules, which aren't in Book 2 or High Guard-II. Supplement 9 has a Kinunir, but it's bigger than the Adventure 1 version; I also can't make a High Guard '80 version that matches it; might be a '79 version - or maybe just badly errored. From your effort with the Book 2 '77 try, I suspect it may be a chimera, drawing on Book 2 '77 and/or High Guard '79 but taking bits from the High Guard revision then under development. Perhaps the book authors had access to the new information before it was released.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning Carlobrand,

It's hard to tell. Kinunir also has the ship with missile magazines (pg. 26). Then there are the drop capsules, which aren't in Book 2 or High Guard-II. Supplement 9 has a Kinunir, but it's bigger than the Adventure 1 version; I also can't make a High Guard '80 version that matches it; might be a '79 version - or maybe just badly errored. From your effort with the Book 2 '77 try, I suspect it may be a chimera, drawing on Book 2 '77 and/or High Guard '79 but taking bits from the High Guard revision then under development. Perhaps the book authors had access to the new information before it was released.

I've overlooked the drop capsules thank you for the reminder which made me dig through CT Book 5 1979 and unearthed under the Options and Other Possibilities section p. 32 six components with material describing them which includes tons of space required and MCr with a paragraph making suggestions of other components. Of six components described in CT Book 5 1979 three of them appear to have been imported into CT Book 5 1980 without changes, one dropped a bit of background, and two were dropped completely. Here is a condensed version of the material in CT Book 5 1979 with comments on what appears to have been dropped in the 1980 version of CT Book 5.

1. L-Hyd Tanks only usable for use on ship's jump drives that are equipped with a special high capacity accumulator installed (TL 12, Cr500,000). CT Book 5 1980 appears to have dropped the high capacity accumulator that may have been used in the Annic Nova from JTAS 1 copyright 1979.

2. Auxiliary Bridge retained in CT Book 5 1980

3. Magazine for missiles and planetary bombing dropped from CT Book 5 1980 and replaced under the bay weapon section of CT Book 5 1980 on p. 30.

4. Fuel Scoops retained in CT Book 5 1980

5. Fuel Purification Plant retained in CT Book 5 1980

6. Jump Governor dropped from CT Book 5 1980

The paragraph:

" The following items are suggested uses for the interior space aboard starships. The actual masses and costs for such areas are left to the referee when actually designing such a ship. Many of these items are subsumed in the costs and tonnages of 4 ton staterooms. In most cases, such areas are required only when drawing up deck plans. Food Service Areas, including mess hall, galley, wardroom. Scientific Areas, including laboratories and storerooms. Electronic Areas, including commo suites, avionics areas, electronic counter-measures installations, gunnery simulation trainers, computer operations areas and parts storage. Vehicle Decks, including garaging, maintenance bays, launching areas, and parts storage. Recycling Stations. Medical Areas, including isolation wards, surgeries, pharmacies, and examination rooms. Agricultural Areas, including fresh food gardens, hydroponics areas, and algae tanks.Troop barracks, including squad areas, training rooms, armories, brigs, ammunition magazines, vacc suit storage, capsule launch areas, and briefing rooms."

Based on the bits that have been put together I'm with you that Adventure 1 Kinunir is probably a hybrid, or is Frankenstein a better description, of CT Book 2 1977, CT Book 5 1979, and draft material from CT Book 5 1980.

 

[rancke]

Relevant references to Book 2 in HG-II include:

"The ship design and construction system given in Book 2 must be considered to be a standard system for providing ships using off-the-shelf components. It is not superceded by any system given in this book; instead this book presents a system for construction of very large vessels, and includes provisions for use of the system with smaller ships." (Pg. 18; emphasis added)

"It is possible to include standard drives (at standard prices) from Book 2 if they will otherwise meet the ship's requirements; such drives use fuel as indicated by the formulas in Book 2." (Pg. 22; in other words, hybrids are allowed.)

"Drives obtained from Book 2 require use of the fuel formulas from Book 2." (Pg. 27)

I find no statement setting limits on what Book 2 material may be used.

Thanks a lot.

I do know that I've found it easier to accept Book 2 designs of 1000 dTons and below because those don't present drives that are clearly superior to their Book-5 counterparts.

What about Mike's frequent complaint about the paradigm switch in prices between maneuver drives and jump drives from Book 2 to Book 5. From that I've gathered that one kind of maneuver drive combined with the other kind of jump drive would be much cheaper than either kind on their own.

However, there's nothing in Book 5 that prevents you from grabbing the 110 dTon 200 MCr Hercules Jump-W "off the shelf" and using it in your Book 5 5000 dTonner in place of that 100 dTon 400 MCr High Guard luxury model -

A saving of MCr200 at the cost of an extra 10% size strikes me as clearly superior when it comes to freight.

... or for that matter from grabbing the 64 dTon 168 MCr Hercules power plant (which needs only 10 dTons of fuel) and using it in place of the TL 15 power plant that wants 50 dTons of fuel.

You know, I've said several times lately that I don't object to Book 2 drives as such, just the way they fit into the canonical Third Imperium setting (or rather, don't fit), but I had forgotten about that silliness.

Personally, it gives me the heebie jeebies, but apparently it's within the rules as written, and I can't find anything in Errata that's changed that.

Sadly, it's probably something that won't be fixed because there's no simple way to do so.

Of course, that does leave us with such anomalies as the scout with its Power Plant A needing twice as much fuel as the Free Trader with its identical power plant.

:nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono:

Add:
And, yes, that does mean you can make Jump-4 at TL 10 for a ship of 400 dTons or less. You can even hit jump 6 at TL 12, assuming a ship of no more than 2000 dTons using Book 2 drives.

Well, you may be able to do that NOW, in the Classic Era, when the H. Andwave jump drive and the F. Udge maneuver drive have been invented, but in the Third Imperium setting you weren't able to do so back in the early days of the Ziru Sirka nor during the Interstellar Wars when those technologies were unknown to man.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

It's not just the price - it's the size.

LBB2 maneuver drives are much smaller than in HG2, if hybrids are allowed then using a book 2 maneuver drive save a lot of space in a 1000t ship.

 

[Carlobrand]

...
What about Mike's frequent complaint about the paradigm switch in prices between maneuver drives and jump drives from Book 2 to Book 5. From that I've gathered that one kind of maneuver drive combined with the other kind of jump drive would be much cheaper than either kind on their own. ...

I can't see anything that prohibits that kind of mix-and-match.

...Well, you may be able to do that NOW, in the Classic Era, when the H. Andwave jump drive and the F. Udge maneuver drive have been invented, but in the Third Imperium setting you weren't able to do so back in the early days of the Ziru Sirka nor during the Interstellar Wars when those technologies were unknown to man. ...

Well, they do say once you know how to do something, it's easier to do. I imagine once they mastered Jump 4, it became possible to pull it off with the lower tech (and cheaper:nonono standard drives.

Y'know, I can see from a pragmatic point of view why they grandfathered in the old stuff, but there are spots where it puts a big crimp in that willing-suspension-of-disbelief thing.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello all,

First my apologies with my tables I don't have a clue, even though several members have tried, on how to create one manually or using the buttons provided.

Update: I was finally able to create tables, unfortunately I'm still missing something, but they make better sense.

CT Book 5 1979 Drives rules are different from those in CT Book 5 1980.

CT Book 5 1979 Drives rules are on pp. 23-24.

Drive Number	1	2	3	4	5	6
Maneuver	2	4	5	12	16	20
Power Plant	1	2	3	4	5	6
Jump	2	3	4	5	6	7

[TC="7"]

Drive Potential Table​

[/TC]
[TC="7"] [/TC]

Drive Number	1	2	3	4	5	6
Maneuver	7	7	8	8	8	9
Power Plant	7	8	9	10	11	12
Jump	9	11	12	13	14	15

[TC="7"]

Drive Tech Level Table​

[/TC]
[TC="7"] [/TC]

Drive Number	1	2	3	4	5	6
Maneuver	1.6	1.0	0.7	0.6	0.5	0.4
Power Plant	6.0	4.0	4.0	4.0	3.5	3.0
Jump	4.0	4.0	4.0	4.0	4.0	4.0

[TC="7"]

Drive Cost Table​

[/TC][TC="7"]
[/TC]

Drives: Three drive types are required for starships- maneuver drives, jump drives, and power plants. Non-starships may omit the jump drives. Custom-built drives must be produced and installed, while observing restrictions as to tech level and interior space.
The drive potential table indicates the percentage of interior space required for a specific drive. The drive tech level table indicates the minimum technological level required to construct the specified drive. The drive cost table indicates the cost in millions of credits to produce the drive per ton of drive.

The rest of the rules are the same as in CT Book 5 1980.

The Adventure 1 Kinunir at 1,200 tons has two J-4 drives, 2 4G M-Drives, and 2 Power Plant drive number 4 of which I'm only to calculate tons for one unit.

The 1,200 ton Kinunir requires per CT Book 2 1977 Type Y systems, being a number between 1,000 and 2,000 the 2,000 ton drive types are used.

CT Book 2 1977
Power Plant-4 Type Y: 73 tons and MCr192
Maneuver Drive-4 Type Y: 47 tons and MCr96
Jump Drive-4 Type Y: 125 tons and MCr240

If I'm understanding the CT Book 5 1979 rules shown above one
Power Plant 4: 48 tons and MCr192
Maneuver Drive 4G: 144 tons and MCr86.4
Jump Drive J-4: 60 tons and MCr240

CT Book 5 1980 (I'm hoping my math is right for a change)
Power Plant 4: 48 tons and MCr144
Maneuver Drive 4G: 132 tons and MCr72
Jump Drive J-4: 60 tons and MCr240

CT Book 2 1981
Power Plant-4 Type Y: 70 tons and MCr184
Maneuver Drive-4 Type Y: 45 tons and MCr92
Jump Drive-4 Type Y: 120 tons and MCr230

I've also tried to figure out the cubic meters/tons of the Adventure 1 Kinunir using the general specifications dimensions and think the numbers are wrong. Has anyone else checked them out.