[CT-LBB2] Type-M Jump Tug

[robject]

Lest I sound like an advocate for High Guard, you'll please notice that none of the features I mentioned are present there, either, except the fuel purifier. So, even if the "jump net" was written under the High Guard "period", yet it wasn't part of the design system there, either, so it's not even a High Guard design element.

In short, it seems clear that LBB2 was never intended to sufficiently cover the scope of the OTU, and they knew it full well at the time. What's more, items such as jump nets, drop tanks, collectors, and the like enrich a design system and do clearly support the OTU, whether or not these are later developments.

(As a side note, Marc seems to be the sort who envisions the big picture before he writes. So it is not unreasonable to assume that many of these elements were floating around in his head even back in 1977, but fleshing them out was not a priority. Ask him about alien generation systems sometime if you want to be shocked.)

Finally, it seems clear that HG was never intended to sufficiently cover the scope of the OTU, either.

That argument is insufficient. It is clear that LBB2 was never intended to provide the full range of design options needed to flesh out the OTU, even back in the late 1970s.

Collectors aren't in LBB2, and yet the ANNIC NOVA "is" an LBB2 design. Also, its computer is LBB2, and yet rules for it are not specified in LBB2.

Similarly, military ships in LBB2 are capable of jumping with unrefined fuel with no penalty, and yet there is no guidance on how to design this into our ships. It's a trivial issue, but plainly LBB2 is not intended to be the end-all be-all of ship design... and the fact that the OTU has exceptions to the rule means LBB2 is not enough.

More evidence: TTB, page 61, on smallcraft:


A small stateroom? I want that in LBB2. It's not there.

And where do I complain about the Lab Ship and Safari Ship? How much does that lab space cost? Or those capture tanks? Are they "free"? And is the trophy lounge just open space, or does it cost the same as a stateroom? Or half a stateroom? And does it give me a +DM to getting my ship contracted out by some wealthy dandy? NO?? Then what's the point? Seems that a luxury lounge could attract more wealthy passengers. Wouldn't that be an interesting addition to the rules?

How about the Scout? Doesn't it have a machine shop in the back, 10 tons? How much did THAT cost? Or is that free as well? And... those military ships have better sensors than civilian craft, right? So how much do those cost, and what do they displace?

And... isn't the Xboat a Book 2 design? OK ok, it's grandfathered in. So it predates the latest LBB2; in other words, they knew it existed. And yet they didn't provide rules for it. So it can't ever be replicated? What sort of usefulness is that? ...for that matter, its computer storage banks can't be replicated either. Come on. Just tell us that they're a bank of Model/1s or something. That would be trivially easy, understandable, and useful to us.

None of this is a show-stopper... for individual referees.

It's horrible for the game, though, because it could have inspired dozens of published design variations.

 

[far-trader]

Lest I look like an advocate for High Guard, you'll please notice that none of the features I mentioned are present there, either, except the fuel purifier.

Minor point but actually some are.

The small craft stateroom (in the small craft design section, not really useful for a starship imo, intended for something between 24 hours and a week, maxing out at 48hours imo).

Machine Shops, Labs, Lounges, etc. (were) covered in the 1st printing of HG as part of the Stateroom tonnage and cost. That was glossed over (or arguably changed, though not imo) in 2nd printing of HG.

Annic Nova's collectors etc. fall under Referee Fiat and Imagination

I agree though, some guidelines, and FULL disclosure of new stuff when it is added to the game should be a given. Annic Nova should have come with designer notes explaining just how the new stuff worked. For example.

 

[mike wightman]

No, there's at least one other universe where jump nets exist: The one where everything described in any Traveller version happened, unless it would create a paradox, in which case it didn't happen (or Marc Miller says it didn't happen, in which case it didn't happen either). Or in other words, the universe I refer to as the OTU.


Hans

Just one little problem - no such thing exists, nor can it since many of the changes do indeed create a paradox.

All we have are the different versions of the OTU that the GDW designers used as a sandbox and changed to fit the new rules and systems rather than seek a way of preserving some sort of continuity.

LBB2 small ship OTU gave way to HG large ship paradigm, and changes to jump drive TL not to mention actually changing the size of jump drives and maneuver drives around.

Are these changes explainable within a reference OTU? No, the switch in j drive and m drive formulae are the paradox.

MT dropped the jump fuel requirement and went back to an earlier CT jump fuel use paradigm - not to fit in with the universe but to make the design rules work and because the folks at DGP had obviously missed how jump fuel use was changes during the evolution of CT. Paradox

Then we have TNE. All ship now have HEPlaR drives including the relic tech from the golden age. Mother of all paradoxes - you wake up from your big sleep and your free trader now has a MEPlaR m-drive and always did have.

 

[mike wightman]

The article explicitly gives design parameters for several Traveller versions: CT, MT, TNE, and GT.

I know - it still doesn't make it CT canon though.

 

[robject]

Minor point but actually some are.

The small craft stateroom (in the small craft design section, not really useful for a starship imo, intended for something between 24 hours and a week, maxing out at 48hours imo).

Machine Shops, Labs, Lounges, etc. (were) covered in the 1st printing of HG as part of the Stateroom tonnage and cost. That was glossed over (or arguably changed, though not imo) in 2nd printing of HG.

Dan, thanks for those corrections. You're right about the small craft state. And it's too bad about the extras in HG1.

I have a quote from Marc pertaining to a rich set of nice extras:

When I started work on (and continued to work on) T5 starships ACS, the many thoughts I have originally flowed back to me, along with new ones.

So T5 reflects much of this.

I know I had an unrealized vision of defining components and cut and pasting them into a final ship design deck plan. None of that made it into the LBB system.

 

[rancke]

Just one little problem - no such thing exists, nor can it since many of the changes do indeed create a paradox.

And those changes either supercede previously published information (if deliberate) or are mistakes that don't actually apply to the OTU (if unintentional), thus eliminating the paradox.

Mind you, I'm not saying that there aren't unresolved contradictions in plenty, but I don't consider them paradoxes; I consider them unresolved contradictions. I certainly don't accept that two contradictory items can both be right.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Just one little problem - no such thing exists, nor can it since many of the changes do indeed create a paradox.

All we have are the different versions of the OTU that the GDW designers used as a sandbox and changed to fit the new rules and systems rather than seek a way of preserving some sort of continuity.

LBB2 small ship OTU gave way to HG large ship paradigm, and changes to jump drive TL not to mention actually changing the size of jump drives and maneuver drives around.

Are these changes explainable within a reference OTU? No, the switch in j drive and m drive formulae are the paradox.

MT dropped the jump fuel requirement and went back to an earlier CT jump fuel use paradigm - not to fit in with the universe but to make the design rules work and because the folks at DGP had obviously missed how jump fuel use was changes during the evolution of CT. Paradox

Then we have TNE. All ship now have HEPlaR drives including the relic tech from the golden age. Mother of all paradoxes - you wake up from your big sleep and your free trader now has a MEPlaR m-drive and always did have.

The biggest problem with the change to HG as the model was not implementing HG on all levels. Grandfathering CT Bk 2 makes the paradox far worse.