CT Special Supplemet 3 Missiles & Consolidated CT Errata

[snrdg082102]

Morning Mike Wightman,

1 G burns 1 unit of fuel per turn.
6 G burns 6 units of fuel per turn.

For a 6G6 missile to work the way you claim would require 36 units of fuel in total.

The rules in SS3 and Mayday are pretty clear:

5G5 means 5G thrust, burning 5 units of fuel which means only 1 turn of maximum thrust.

Apparently we have very different definition for burns and units of fuel.

I define 1 burn as being equal to the fuel unit needed to achieve the maximum acceleration G-rating/factor/level to move 1 hex in 1 turn.

A 1G system in 1 Burn uses 1 unit of fuel to move 1 hex in 1 turn.
A 2G system in 1 Burn uses 2 units of fuel to move 1 hex in 1 turn.

Please explain to me how

The rules in SS3 and Mayday are pretty clear:

supports

5G5 means 5G thrust, burning 5 units of fuel which means only 1 turn of maximum thrust

Mayday 1978/Mayday FFE 005 Section 8 Ships G Factor/G Level: The acceleration, or G factor/level for vessels is expressed as an indication of maximum acceleration for the movement phase, and maximum total acceleration allowed before fuel exhaustion. Thus/Thus, 1G5 indicates/means that a maximum course change (movement of the future position marker in the movement) of 1 hex, and a total course change (over several turns) of 5 hexes.

Mayday FFE 005 Section 7. Special Rules E. Building Missiles: For example, a typical missile would be built in the following manner. A limited acceleration (Cr300), homing system (Cr100), missile (considered ideal by the propulsion guidance systems table, can also carry a contact detonator. It could be provided with a G level 6 (costing Cr3600), and 6 total fuel burns.

We don't agree about SS3 so I don't think quoting from that article is going to be of much help.

I get the horrible feeling that the errata is actually wrong because the errata writers don't understand it themselves.

Marc Miller, the author of SS3, created the errata approximately 20 years ago, according to DonM's post listed as number 28, in response to questions posed by a fan. Since Mr. Miller verified and approved the changes for inclusion as part of the Consolidated CT Errata v 0.7, I'll go with the errata.

 

[atpollard]

Changing the nomenclature from 6G36 (original SS3) to 6G6 (Mayday & CT Errata) for a missile capable of 6 turns of acceleration at 6 Gees, is a trivial matter ... and probably a good idea since 6G6 is more intuitive and agrees with Mayday (or so Tom claims, I've never used Mayday).

Reducing the cost, volume and mass of the required fuel to achieve this performance in the SS3 missile design rules is something that should be done with much more care and thought.

I haven't followed the discussion closely enough to be sure of all the implications of this topic, but comparing SS3 missiles to the rocket formula already created impressive (reality suspender snapping) results ... increasing performance 6 fold may not be a good idea.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello atpollard,

I have made no claims, I did however quote accurately from two copies of Mayday Rules and presented my understanding. SS3, at least in my opinion, is a more detailed version of the Mayday rules presented in FFE 005 Games 1-6+ The Classic Games which is a correction of my copy Mayday rules with a copyrighted of 1978.

Changing the nomenclature from 6G36 (original SS3) to 6G6 (Mayday & CT Errata) for a missile capable of 6 turns of acceleration at 6 Gees, is a trivial matter ... and probably a good idea since 6G6 is more intuitive and agrees with Mayday (or so Tom claims, I've never used Mayday).

Reducing the cost, volume and mass of the required fuel to achieve this performance in the SS3 missile design rules is something that should be done with much more care and thought.

I haven't followed the discussion closely enough to be sure of all the implications of this topic, but comparing SS3 missiles to the rocket formula already created impressive (reality suspender snapping) results ... increasing performance 6 fold may not be a good idea.

 

[Piper]

Marc Miller, the author of SS3, created the errata approximately 20 years ago, according to DonM's post listed as number 28, in response to questions posed by a fan. Since Mr. Miller verified and approved the changes for inclusion as part of the Consolidated CT Errata v 0.7, I'll go with the errata.

If the folks at GDW never made any mistakes then there wouldn't be any errata.

What might have happened (pure hypothesizing here) is that someone questioned why the SS3 missiles were so short-ranged when compared to Book 2's lasers as this goes completely contrary to High Guard and Mayday.

Mr. Miller may have suggested the "change burns to turns" situation as a quick fix to this disparity. If this is the case, (like most quick fixes) it creates as many problems as it solves; impossible thrust times and the whole guided missile issue.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hi Piper,

If the folks at GDW never made any mistakes then there wouldn't be any errata.

What might have happened (pure hypothesizing here) is that someone questioned why the SS3 missiles were so short-ranged when compared to Book 2's lasers as this goes completely contrary to High Guard and Mayday.

Mr. Miller may have suggested the "change burns to turns" situation as a quick fix to this disparity. If this is the case, (like most quick fixes) it creates as many problems as it solves; impossible thrust times and the whole guided missile issue.

I won't disagree that the folks never made mistakes or that Mr. Miller made a quick fix on short notice.

To be honest I don't see how one can compare ranges in High Guard with CT Book 2 Starships, Mayday, or SS3.

High Guard's distance is two indeterminate ranges labeled short and long.

CT Book 2 Starships, Mayday and SS3 have distance scales that are defined.

 

[Piper]

To be honest I don't see how one can compare ranges in High Guard with CT Book 2 Starships, Mayday, or SS3.

High Guard's distance is two indeterminate ranges labeled short and long.

In High Guard, missiles are at -1 to hit at short range, lasers are at -1 to hit at long range.

Mayday gives actual hex range definitions for these: up to 5 hexes is short, greater than that is long.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening PDT Piper,

In High Guard, missiles are at -1 to hit at short range, lasers are at -1 to hit at long range.

Mayday gives actual hex range definitions for these: up to 5 hexes is short, greater than that is long.

Thanks for the reminder and making the connection that adapting High Guard to the Mayday movement system worked for the combat system too.

I totally missed the connection when I was looking at the section, boy am I slow on the uptake.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening PDT Hyphen,

I've got silly question about "Mayday Missiles Modified":

What happened to the SS3 requirement tha fusion warheads below TL 10 requirement about fission triggers?

*moan* I guess this means that my "Mayday Missiles Modified" page is now wrong...

Beowulf Down
==> Tavonni Repair Bays
==> House Rules
==> Mayday Missiles Modified

%-(

(The only good thing I can say is that my "Advanced Civilian" version (with two 10G burns) anticipated Power Projection's missiles by over 10 years...)

 

[Carlobrand]

In High Guard, missiles are at -1 to hit at short range, lasers are at -1 to hit at long range.

Mayday gives actual hex range definitions for these: up to 5 hexes is short, greater than that is long.

Some contradictory canon there:

Mayday's hexes are one light second - about 300,000 km. Means short range is up to 5 light seconds, or 1.5 million km.

Book 2, which operates a similar but not identical combat system, declares that civilian ships can detect other ships out to 1.5 light seconds, military ships out to 2 light seconds, and a detected ship can be tracked only to three light seconds - 900,000 km. Book 2 assigns a -2 for laser fire beyond 250,000 km, which means short range there is less than that.

High Guard of course applies an abstract combat system that doesn't define range beyond "short" and "long". However, it uses a 20-minute turn, much closer to Book 2's 1000-second (16 2/3 minutes) turn than Mayday's 100-minute turn. 20 minutes at 6G represents a vector change of 43,200 km; at 1G it's only 7200 km. Slipping back and forth over a 5 light-second/1.5 million km short range in a single turn requires one to assume that the fleets are hovering fairly close to that 5-light-second boundary rather than maneuvering actively.

MegaTraveller, which applies a modified High-Guardesque combat system, uses the High Guard 20-minute turn on a playing field consisting of 25,000 km hexes*. That system applies a -1 to laser fire and +1 to missile fire if the target is more than 2 hexes away, so short range in that system is out to about 50,000 km.

Me, if I were hunting for ranges, I'd borrow from the only one that uses a combat system similar to High Guard, which is MegaTrav.

(*That makes zero sense since a 1G ship can alter its vector by 1 hex per turn in that game. The turn actually comes to a bit over 37 minutes on that scale, or the hex should be 7200 km, but that makes for planets that occupy multiple hexes and the potential for inadvertent collisions with planets, though that can be handled by assuming the ships are fighting somewhat above the system's orbital plane, thus overflying rather than intersecting. Also means the run from planet to jump point is three times longer, which can be problematic if you're planning on jumping away from a fight. I think a nice round 30 minute turn, which gives 16,000 km hexes and keeps all terrestrial worlds inside their hex - and anything sharing the planet's hex is considered to be in close orbit around it - is adequate. It does mean some redefining of range bands: Megatrav's "planetary" range for example becomes 3 hexes instead of 2.)

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning Carlobrand,

Thanks for dropping by.

Some contradictory canon there:

Mayday's hexes are one light second - about 300,000 km. Means short range is up to 5 light seconds, or 1.5 million km.

Book 2, which operates a similar but not identical combat system, declares that civilian ships can detect other ships out to 1.5 light seconds, military ships out to 2 light seconds, and a detected ship can be tracked only to three light seconds - 900,000 km. Book 2 assigns a -2 for laser fire beyond 250,000 km, which means short range there is less than that.

High Guard of course applies an abstract combat system that doesn't define range beyond "short" and "long". However, it uses a 20-minute turn, much closer to Book 2's 1000-second (16 2/3 minutes) turn than Mayday's 100-minute turn. 20 minutes at 6G represents a vector change of 43,200 km; at 1G it's only 7200 km. Slipping back and forth over a 5 light-second/1.5 million km short range in a single turn requires one to assume that the fleets are hovering fairly close to that 5-light-second boundary rather than maneuvering actively.

MegaTraveller, which applies a modified High-Guardesque combat system, uses the High Guard 20-minute turn on a playing field consisting of 25,000 km hexes*. That system applies a -1 to laser fire and +1 to missile fire if the target is more than 2 hexes away, so short range in that system is out to about 50,000 km.

Yipee, I don't have to type the comparisons now thank you very much Carlobrand. I made a couple of starts last night but, my eye-lids kept getting in the way.

Silly question What about TNE?

I'll add TNE since you did the others

TNE Core book GDW 300 pages 311-312):
Combat turn: 30 minutes
Range Band: Combat is conducted abstractly or other graphic representation of vessels. Distance between vessels (used to calculate sesnor and weapon range) is measured in increments of 30,000 km (one-tenth of a light-second) each called a range band.
Velocity: expressed in range bands per combat turn, For reference purposes, a velocity of 1 = a real speed of 60,000 kph
G-turn: An acceleration of 1G for one combat turn (30 minutes). 2G-turns = 1 G-hour

Me, if I were hunting for ranges, I'd borrow from the only one that uses a combat system similar to High Guard, which is MegaTrav.

Looks like my can of worms or barrel of monkeys just got a whole lot bigger.

(*That makes zero sense since a 1G ship can alter its vector by 1 hex per turn in that game. The turn actually comes to a bit over 37 minutes on that scale, or the hex should be 7200 km, but that makes for planets that occupy multiple hexes and the potential for inadvertent collisions with planets, though that can be handled by assuming the ships are fighting somewhat above the system's orbital plane, thus overflying rather than intersecting. Also means the run from planet to jump point is three times longer, which can be problematic if you're planning on jumping away from a fight. I think a nice round 30 minute turn, which gives 16,000 km hexes and keeps all terrestrial worlds inside their hex - and anything sharing the planet's hex is considered to be in close orbit around it - is adequate. It does mean some redefining of range bands: Megatrav's "planetary" range for example becomes 3 hexes instead of 2.)

Anyone have a magnifying glass.
Looks like TNE is closer to your findings.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning (PDT),

I think I've figured out why I'm at odds with the original SS3 propulsion system examples.

Short version:

If SS3 uses CT Book 2 Space Combat and the number of burns can be more than 12 then I'm all wet. On the other hand if the maximum number of burns is 12 then SS3 missiles are restricted to 1,200 mm based on CT Book 2 Space Combats and doesn't make any sense to me.

Long version

Bouncing between CT Book 2, SS3, and Mayday FFE 005 reprint I, hopefully, have combined related rules from CT Book 2 and Mayday with SS3. The Mayday rules maybe related to SS3 which I tried to explain in the long version.

CT Book 2 Space Combat: Scale page 26
Scale: 1 mm = 100 km; 3 m = 3,000 mm = 300,000 km = 1 light-second
Thrust: 1G equals 100 mm or 10,000 km per turn. (Note 1)
Defenders DM's page 30: Ranges > 2,500 mm -2; Ranges > 5,000 mm -5, and each 25 mm of sand -3
Detection page 32: Ordinary/Commercial 1,500 mm or 0.5 light seconds: Military/Scout - 6,000 mm = 6 meters = 2 light-seconds
Tracking page 32: 9,000 mm = 9 meters = 3 light seconds

Mayday FFE 005 reprint:
Distance: Each map hexagon = approximately 1 light-second (300,000 km)
Thrust: Each G factor = constant acceleration of 1 gravity (9.8 m/ses/sec). (Note 2)
4. Movement D: If a course change desired, the future position counter may be moved one hex for each G-factor which the ship has. (Note 2)
7. Special Rules E. Building Missiles: Maximum G level allowable is 6G, and the maximum burns allowed for a single missile is 12

JTAS 21 SS3 FFE 007 JTAS Issues 13-24 reprints

Scale page 2 (Note 3)
These rules are written for the standard starship combat scales in Traveller.
Time: 1,000 seconds per turn
Distance: 100 mm = 10,000 km
Acceleration: 1G of acceleration equals 100 mm or 10,000 km per turn.
Missile Identification Page 3: A selection of basic propulsion systems have been computed for mass and price and are presented in the chart section page 13. (Note 4)
Basic Propulsion System Charts: The charts appears to set the maximum number of burns at 12 and acceleration is step to a maximum of 6G which is the maximum per CT Book 2 and CT Book 5 High Guard.

All three rule sets appear to agree that a G of acceleration moves the object 1 unit of distance per turn.

CT Book 2 doe not appear to limit how many turns an object can mover. Mayday appears to limit the number of accelerations to 12, and the SS3 charts on page 13 also appear to limit the number of accelerations to 12.

Using CT Book 2 and SS3 thrust scales: 1G = 100 mm (Since I'm not up to doing the math today I'm going to equate a Mayday acceleration of 1G per hex as being equal to 100 mm in CT Book 2 and SS3 for the time being.)

1G of acceleration moves an object 100 mm in one turn using the propulsion system one time.

6G of acceleration moves an object 600 mm in one turn using the propulsion system one time.

In order to move 600 mm using 1G of acceleration requires using the propulsion system six times.

I thought I read in the SS3 FFE 007 reprint that the maximum number of burns was 12, which I can't seem to find now, which appeared to be confirmed by the standard propulsion system tables on page 13.

Based on the CT Book 2 space combat rules every SS3 missile has a maximum range of 1,200 mm. The range doesn't make sense to me.

Based on trying to use the text, equations, and charts I decided I was missing something and shelved the whole thing. Of course Mayday had the issue that I couldn't match the typical CT Book 2 missile because of cost.

Eventually I downloaded a copy of the Consolidated CT Errata which has led to this topic.

Of course going through the errata and reviewing SS3-R I've submitted what might be errata to DonM.

I'm thinking that the limited burn propulsion system may still need adjusting since it also uses a solid fuel motor like the continuous burn system. The differences are a limited burn system system can be have the fuel segregated allowing the system to be shutdown/restarted and acceleration can be adjusted to something less than maximum acceleration.

I thinking that the fuel mass has to be calculated for maximum acceleration at the maximum number of turns. Setting the acceleration to a lower level means that the number of burns change. To account for that I'd recommend using a variation of the Varying payloads rule on SS3 pages 4-5.

I haven't figure out how to simulate the segregation of the fuel allowing the system to be shut down and restarted.

(Note 1): Thrust CT Book 2 page 26: Maneuver drive thrust is measured in Gs (gravities) expressed as a vector of both length and direction. While direction is variable, the length or the arrow is represented at the scale 100 mm equals 1G (1,000 seconds of acceleration at 1G will produce a velocity change of 10,000 km or 100 mm in scale, per turn).

(Note 2): The Mayday thrust scale and movement have me a bit puzzled but that will be for another topic.

(Note 3): SS3 appears to based on CT Book 2 Space Combat pages 26-35

(Note 4): I though I read that the propulsion system charts are for 50 kg missiles, unfortunately I can't see to find the text.

 

[mike wightman]

You do realise that a missile that accelerates keeps that velocity for future turns?

A missile with 1G1 moves 1 hex every turn in a straight line once it has used its burn.

A missile with 1G3 accelerates to a velocity of 1 hex per turn on its first burn or turn.
On the second turn it can accelerate again, it is now moving at a velocity of 2 hexes per turn and has moved a total distace of 3 hexes (not actually the way physics works but its the way the rules model it)
On the third turn it accelerates again, it now has a velocity of 3 hexes per turn and has moved a total of 1+2+3 = 6 hexes.

It continues moving at 3 hexes per turn forever or until it hits something.

For LBB2 substitute 100mm for hex.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hi Mike,

You do realize that a missile that accelerates keeps that velocity for future turns?

A missile with 1G1 moves 1 hex every turn in a straight line once it has used its burn.

A missile with 1G3 accelerates to a velocity of 1 hex per turn on its first burn or turn.
On the second turn it can accelerate again, it is now moving at a velocity of 2 hexes per turn and has moved a total distance of 3 hexes (not actually the way physics works but its the way the rules model it)
On the third turn it accelerates again, it now has a velocity of 3 hexes per turn and has moved a total of 1+2+3 = 6 hexes.

It continues moving at 3 hexes per turn forever or until it hits something.

For LBB2 substitute 100 mm for hex.

Yes, I realize that per CT Book 2 pages 27-28 that an object that accelerates a 1G and shutdowns the maneuver drive/propulsion system has an 100 mm vector line plotted for all future turns unless the maneuver drive/propulsion system used again or through the affects of passing through a world's gravity bands.

Yep, per CT Book 2 Movement page 28 a Standard Type A free trader with a maximum 1G of acceleration moves 100 mm in 1 turn. The same Type free trader accelerates to 1G that maintains constant acceleration of 1G for 10 moves 100 mm x 10 = 1,000 mm or 1 meter. Shutting down the maneuver drive the Type Free Trader travels 1,000 mm per turn unless affected by gravity or lights off the maneuver drive again.

Back on entry 6 posted 02/18/13 I tried using a similar example and fell flat.

 

[mike wightman]

Just checking, your comment about a missile having a maximum range of 1200mm, or 12 hexes in Mayday parlance, is a bit misleading.

Missiles have a maximum acceleration per turn, and a maximum velocity dictated by number of fuel burns.

Range is infinite.

 

[snrdg082102]

My apologies for totally missing this post Rancke.

Before getting started I want to state that SS3 per page 3 "Scale: These rules are written for the standard starship combat scales of Traveller." are, to my understanding, referring to the rules in CT Book 2 Starships on pages 26-34.

It looks like you may have missed the point I was making. It wasn't whether or not there was evidence to support your interpretation. It was whether or not your interpretation was the best choice to resolve what seemed to be a canon conflict.

Neither of these says anything about how to interpret the label '<number>G<number>'. They would apply to either interpretation.

SS3 page 3: Propulsion System example: "a 1G1 propulsion system can accelerate a maximum of 1G per turn, and is capable of burning fuel to achieve 1G once"

SS3 page 3: Propulsion System: The first number is the maximum number of Gs a missile is capable of in a turn, the second is the number of G-burns of fuel the missile can make".

SS3 page 2; Scale: One G of acceleration for one turn moves an object 100 mm.

CT Book 1 page 26: Thrust CT Book 2 page 26: Maneuver drive thrust is measured in Gs (gravities) expressed as a vector of both length and direction. While direction is variable, the length or the arrow is represented at the scale 100 mm equals 1G (1,000 seconds of acceleration at 1G will produce a velocity change of 10,000 km or 100 mm in scale, per turn).

Short version: Thrust: A vector arrow with a length of 100 mm = 1G of acceleration per turn.

The 1G in the Propulsion system example and the description "the first number is the maximum number of Gs a missile is capable of in one turn" appears to be a match with the SS3 and CT Book 2 Scales with variations in the wording. They all indicate that a maneuver drive/propulsion system capable of 1G of acceleration is the same item.

The second part of the SS3 performance label "... the second is the number of G-burns of fuel the missile can make." gets a bit trickier since CT Book 2 doesn't limit how many turns of movement a starship, non-starship, small craft, or missiles have. So you are right that CT Book 2 cannot be used to interpret the performance label.

Of course CT Book 2 doesn't explicitly state that a missile has a maneuver drive or that it has thrust measured in Gs or that the maximum number of Gs is 6 either.

Moving to SS3 to interpret the second part of the performance label:

SS3 page 3: Propulsion System: The first number is the maximum number of Gs a missile is capable of in a turn, the second is the number of G-burns of fuel the missile can make".

A couple of questions I've always had is about the second part of the label are

What does "can make" refer to?

Does "can make" refer to the maximum number of Gs? This is what I thought might be missing.

SS3 page 3: Propulsion System example: "a 1G1 propulsion system can accelerate a maximum of 1G per turn, and is capable of burning fuel to achieve 1G once."

My interpretation is that the propulsion system has enough fuel to accelerate at 1G once which is the maximum acceleration the system can achieve in one turn.

Burning of fuel to achieve 1G once = can accelerate a maximum of 1G per turn.

A burn of fuel appears to be equal to a turn which by SS3 page 2; Scale: One G of acceleration for one turn moves an object 100 mm.

In CT Book 2 terms the SS3 page 3: Propulsion System example: "a 1G1 propulsion system can accelerate a maximum of 1G per turn, and is capable of burning fuel to achieve 1G once." would draw a vector line 100 mm long for one burn of fuel. As long as the propulsion system is shut down the vector line is 100 mm long. Under a constant 1G of acceleration, per CT Book 2 Movement page 28, for 10 turn the vector line is 1,000 mm long or 1 meter. Shutting down the propulsion system again the vector would remain 1 meter until something affected the propulsion system.

This is the resolution to the presumed canon conflict, right? It's not evidence that there ever was a conflict in the first place (Not that this was my main point anyway).

The second example in SS3 FFE 007 reprint page 3: "A 6G6 system can accelerate to a maximum of 6G per turn, and has enough fuel to reach 6G once."

Per SS3/CT Book 2: One G of acceleration for one turn moves an object 100 mm. Extrapolating from this basic rule:
2G of acceleration for one turn moves an object 200 mm
3G of acceleration for one turn moves an object 300 mm
4G of acceleration for one turn moves an object 400 mm
5G of acceleration for one turn moves an object 500 mm
6G of acceleration for one turn moves an object 600 mm

A 1G propulsion system that accelerates 1 time moves 100 mm and a 6G system that accelerates 1 time moves 600 mm.

A 1G1 propulsion system can accelerate a maximum of 1G or 100 mm per turn, and is capable of burning fuel to achieve 1G or 100 mm once. I have no problem with the 1G1 system.

A 6G6 propulsion system can accelerate to a maximum of 6G or 600 mm per turn, and has enough fuel to reach 6G or 600 mm once.

In order for a 1G propulsion system to move 600 mm under thrust at 1G of acceleration the propulsion system needs 6 turns or must be capable of burning fuel for 1G six times to move 600 mm. Using the performance label the propulsion system would be written as 1G6.

Why does the 6 in the 1G mean six times and 1 time in the 6G propulsion system?

Both the 1G and 6G propulsion systems move the object 600 mm, but the 1G system using thrust has to be capable of buring fuel 6 times while a 6G system does it in one turn.

As a guess since I haven't found an written support you divide acceleration into burns of fuel (Burns of fuel / G).

Personally I see a conflict between the scale rules and the burns of fuel lack of rule.

Snipped the rest since I realize I'm probably not going to win.

Do you have any references that actually support the other interpretation?


Hans

Reverse question: Do you have any references to support the other interpretation?

I gave page references and tried to type the quoted material as shown on the pages of the books. If that isn't enough then I need you to provide me with some examples.

The propulsion examples don't make sense when comparing them to movement in CT Book 2 Space Combat. The maximum range of a missile under the propulsion stem examples is 1,200 mm, except technically a 5G12 missile which technically has 12/5 = 2.4 round to 2 or 1,000 mm of range.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hi again Mike,

Just checking, your comment about a missile having a maximum range of 1200 mm, or 12 hexes in Mayday parlance, is a bit misleading.

Missiles have a maximum acceleration per turn, and a maximum velocity dictated by number of fuel burns.

Range is infinite.

True that range is infinite, however CT Book 2 uses the turn range for the Defender's DM's on page 30.

Sorry about being vague of course I keep editing thinking I'm making things clearer and thanks for checking.

If the SS3 propulsion system examples are correct then a 6G12 missile can burn fuel twice moves to a distance of 1,200 mm after which has a vector arrow 1,200 mm traveling in the same direction and cannot maneuver on its own.

Technically a 5G12 missile would run out of fuel at 5G x 100 mm x round (12/5,0) = 500 mm x round (2.4,0) = 500 mm x 2 = 1,000 mm if under constant acceleration.

Which is why I don't think the SS3 FFE 007 reprint propulsion system section works. The Consolidated CT Errata v 0.7 SS3 errata seems to, for the most part any way, make SS3 work with CT Book 2 space combat.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hi all,

Let me see if I have this straight:

A 6G12 limited burn propulsion system with a radio sensing guidance system in one turn can move 600 mm under maximum acceleration. Per the propulsion rules this missile can run the solid fuel motor 12 G-burns of fuel/6 = 2 burns of fuel.

Movement Phase 1: Motor burns 1 time leaving 1 burn available.

Movement Phase 2: Radio guidance system alters missiles course and motor burns 1 time exhausting fuel.

Movement Phase 3+: Missile coasts on last heading technically forever or until it hits something.

If the limited burn system is set to accelerate at less than maximum Gs then its course change potential is one-half the difference between its maximum G and its current G rating with fractions rounded down or round down ((Max G - Current G) x 0.5, 0). Fuel for course changes is expended at 2 burns of fuel for 1G of change.

A 6G12 limited burn radio sensing missile is set to 3G and has the ability to change course at round down ((6-3) x 0.5,0) = round down (3 x 0.5,0) = round down (1.5,0) = 1G. Each 1G of course change requires (2 burns x 1) = 2 burns of fuel. Reducing the acceleration to 3G gives the missile (12/3) = 4 burns of fuel.

Movement phase 1: Missile burns 1 time leaving 3 burns

Movement phase 2: Missile makes 1G course change burns 2 times leaving 1 burn.

Movement Phase 3: Missile burn 1 time fuel exhausted and cannot change course.

What good is a SS3 missile if everything on the board can pretty much maneuver out of harms way?

To be honest that doesn't make sense, of course I'm probably wrong on how movement works, too.

Mayday uses this example to explain the relationship between acceleration and burns of fuel or G-burns of fuel:

1G5 means that a maximum course change (movement of the future position marker in the movement phase) of 1 hex, and a total course change (over several turns) of 5 hexes.

The way I understand the example is that a missile or, non-starship or, small craft with a maximum acceleration of 1G has five total fuel burns to make course changes at 1G.

Movement Phase 1: The object moves 1 hex at 1G and consumes 1 fuel burn leaving 4 total fuel burns.

Movement Phase 2: The object changes course by 1G burn moves 1 hex, consumes 1 fuel burn, 3 total fuel burns left.

Movement Phase 3: The object changes course by 1G burn moves 1 hex, consumes 1 fuel burn, 2 total fuel burns left.

Movement Phase 4: The object changes course by 1G burn moves 1 hex, consumes 1 fuel burn, 1 total fuel burns left.

Movement Phase 5: The object moves 1 hex at 1G and consumes 1 fuel burn fuel exhausted.

Movement Phase 6+: The object moves 1 hex in same direction and cannot maneuver.

 

[atpollard]

Hi all,

Let me see if I have this straight:

A 6G12 limited burn propulsion system with a radio sensing guidance system in one turn can move 600 mm under maximum acceleration. Per the propulsion rules this missile can run the solid fuel motor 12 G-burns of fuel/6 = 2 burns of fuel.

Movement Phase 1: Motor burns 1 time leaving 1 burn available.

Movement Phase 2: Radio guidance system alters missiles course and motor burns 1 time exhausting fuel.

Movement Phase 3+: Missile coasts on last heading technically forever or until it hits something.

I think that a more typical application would be to burn 1 turn at 6G.
Then coast while the missile crosses the vast distance between the ships.
When the missile comes near the target ship (within 1 turn at 6G), probably on a course to miss the evading target, the second burn kicks in guiding the now active missile into the target ship.

 

[Piper]

What good is a SS3 missile if everything on the board can pretty much maneuver out of harms way?

Couple of points to consider:

Missiles have the vector of the launching vessel. A head-on run towards the target adds to the vector of the missile and can increase effective range.

At (relatively) short range, missiles work just fine. They're a knife fighter type of weapon in SS3.

As previously mentioned, drifters can work, too, particularly in a tail chase. You can also launch multiple missiles, hold them motionless relative to your launch vector then fire them all together (guidance and propulsion permitting).

Engaging a target with missiles using vector movement is pretty cool and a lot of fun (YMMV). If you haven't actually tried it, I'd recommend it strongly. As a tip, try reducing the Book 2 laser ranges by a factor of 10. It gets the game up off of the floor and onto a table (which is a big plus at my age).

 

[snrdg082102]

Hi atpollard,

Originally Posted by snrdg082102
Hi all,

Let me see if I have this straight:

A 6G12 limited burn propulsion system with a radio sensing guidance system in one turn can move 600 mm under maximum acceleration. Per the propulsion rules this missile can run the solid fuel motor 12 G-burns of fuel/6 = 2 burns of fuel.

Movement Phase 1: Motor burns 1 time leaving 1 burn available.

Movement Phase 2: Radio guidance system alters missiles course and motor burns 1 time exhausting fuel.

Movement Phase 3+: Missile coasts on last heading technically forever or until it hits something.

I think that a more typical application would be to burn 1 turn at 6G.
Then coast while the missile crosses the vast distance between the ships.
When the missile comes near the target ship (within 1 turn at 6G), probably on a course to miss the evading target, the second burn kicks in guiding the now active missile into the target ship.

You are probably correct that the limited burn would have a segregated into increments. The problem I see is the segregated increments of burn are set prior to launch, once the missile is launched the timing cannot be changed. If the target changes course or acceleration causing the missile's restart has better odds of being to late to achieve a hit.

Per CT Book 2 the typical missile is a homing type which constantly seeks the target ship, ultimately being destroyed by the target's defenses, or exploding and doing damage to it.

I'm not sure the SS3 example limited burns missile meets the requirement of constantly seeking.