CT Only: CT - We Don't Need No Stinkin' Skills

[creativehum]

Sorry, I'm being argumentative and cranky to no good purpose today. And yesterday.

It's Day-2 of what is brewing to be a 3-4 day migraine with spasms in my neck and back, and it is pushing through the painkillers. The stresses of this time of year are not helping.

No one said anything but I could see I was just circling my tail and being a horse's rear. Sometimes I forget that argument doesn't mean being a pedant.

Carry on. I'm going to take my morphine and try to center myself a bit before the relatives start arriving tomorrow.

Hey, no problem. Feel better soon I hope!

 

[kilemall]

Alright, neat, we have banished skill creep and put in player agency and you don't need 30 defined skills.

But why is everyone so scared of having character stats mean something too, both positive and negative?

I'm rather big on the stats meaning A LOT, with people being natively able to do some things well and other things not well at all.

And also assuming Skill-0 for most things tried rather makes a monkey of the Jack of All Trades skill.

More I think about it, more the 2D/3D/4D target roll and skill level +2 DM/STAT-7=DM/no skill -4 appeals to me. Means an above average person of STAT-9 gets +2 or equivalent to Skill-1 bonus, makes the character stats and that PD table more meaningful.

 

[aramis]

But why is everyone so scared of having character stats mean something too, both positive and negative?

I'm rather big on the stats meaning A LOT, with people being natively able to do some things well and other things not well at all.

Because, in my experience, expertise far outweighs natural talent

A guy might have high dex, but he's not a surgeon without the skill to know what, where, and when to cut, and to tie.

And also assuming Skill-0 for most things tried rather makes a monkey of the Jack of All Trades skill.

Maybe... I've seen a half dozen variations on how to do JoaT...

1. Negates unskilled penalty
2. Reduces unskilled penalties
3. Allows retries
4. Specific level counts as level 1 in a given set of skills; which skills varies by skill level. So, gunsmithing might be level 2, while admin is at level 1, and Engineering or programming level3.
5. Pick X skills per level to use without unskilled penalty
6. provides half the bonus of an equivalent level of the same skill
7. allows unskilled attempts skill level times per session
8. allows attempts without adequate supplies (think MacGuyver)
9. allows hurried building of ramshackle items in a pinch (again, MacGuyver)
10. Make-rolls - once per session or once per character month, JoaT level skill rolls called for can be "I make it" without rolling.

Note that #1 makes only one level matter.
#2 makes multiple levels matter, but only as many as the unskilled penalty.
#3 is a pain, as the GM has to decide which skills are which levels. I quite the campaign using that mode.
#4 was someone else's house rule, I've not used it. Bookkeeping.
#6 works well with standard CT skill throws in the skill descriptions. Many of which specify more than +1 for skilled.
#7 &#8 nerf it, unless the GM has penalties for same.
#9 is potent in a seldom-rolling group, and weak in a lots-of-rolls group.

 

[mike wightman]

I agree completely with Aramis.

I don't mind a characteristic DM in the range -2 to +2 to a situation throw if it used to hit a target number, too big a DM reduces a 2D6 to absurdity.

If only the characteristic is being used to overcome adversity I would be tempted to just roll equal to or lower then the characteristic on 2D or 3D

 

[rhialto]

I agree completely with Aramis.

I don't mind a characteristic DM in the range -2 to +2 to a situation throw if it used to hit a target number, too big a DM reduces a 2D6 to absurdity.

If only the characteristic is being used to overcome adversity I would be tempted to just roll equal to or lower then the characteristic on 2D or 3D

Same here, but in kilemall's proposal the +2 DM/skill level and STAT-7 = +1 DM/diff would seem to be combined with 2D/3D/4D difficulties, not always 2D. And I'd guess you'd define 2D = Easy, 3D = Average, 4D = Hard throws. An interesting variant for someone to work out the probabilities for.

 

[creativehum]

A reminder about level-0 and JoT per the rules:

Level-0 for the possible "default skills" are condired an "orientation to the skill by an experienced person." A person given an introduction of this type cannot can undertake "ordinary activities" and cannot attempt "dangerous activities or fancy actions."

Meanwhile a JoT can attempt dangerous and fancy actions in a crisis.

For my money this distinction means a lot.

 

[Supplement Four]

A general scan of the throws available in CT rules, adventures, and supplements indicates that the stance taken with the game is that the emphasis is on skill--experience--rather than natural ability (attributes).

Skills have a much heavier influence on throws than do Stats. Yet, skills remain sparse on generated characters.

Of course, like a lot of things with CT, that changes later with other editions of the game. In MT and TNE, the stat (and skill) is standardized. In T4 and T5, the attribute finds equal influence, or even more influence, on the task roll than does skill.

 

[mike wightman]

Best not bring T4 and T5 task system into this or the thread will be closed for edition warring

I think the key word in all of this is expertise - take a step back and it could be experience.

A character should be capable of what anyone who has served - lets say four terms in the Imperial Army - is capable of. Terms served and career should probably be a factor in determining DMs for situation throws ahead of innate characteristics like Str, Dex etc.

Actual skills focus in on the specifics learned - but consider this character:

Gav Tragglo ex.Army 4 terms 678786 rifle-1, smg-1; newly mustered out on Regina. Useless or a world full of possibilities?

 

[creativehum]

A general scan of the throws available in CT rules, adventures, and supplements indicates that the stance taken with the game is that the emphasis is on skill--experience--rather than natural ability (attributes).

This is one way of looking at it. Each Referee or gaming table will have to decide what feels best for them.

For myself, when I read the rules, what I see is that all possible sources of DMs are situational and built from the specific moment at hand. Skills and personal characteristics can influence any given situation in several ways. We know that a PC’s DEX might have a greater positive impact than his expertise with a given weapon; we know that some skills make it clear personal characteristics should be taken into account if it makes sense in that situation to do so. And sometimes a PC's characteristic will provide a DM where no skill applies at all.

For myself, this is the take I came up with for personal characteristics after looking at Books 1-3. I modeled the use, values, and nature of characteristics as best I could using the rules I found in the books at precedent. (In general this means no roll under characteristic tests (which I don’t like anyway for several reasons, which I outline in this blog post), and that positive or negative DMs are applied from personal characteristics at the higher or lower ends of the scale respectively.

1. We start with the basic formula of Situation Throws
2D6 +/- DM ≥ Throw Value equals success
2.If an applicable characteristic is 9+ and higher than the Throw value, the character receives a DM +1 to the roll
3.For every two points the characteristic exceeds the Throw value, the character receives and additional DM +1 to the roll
4.If the Throw value is 15 or higher, any applicable characteristic of F will receive a DM +1
5.If an applicable characteristic is 4- the character receives a DM -1 to the roll
6.If an applicable characteristic is 2- the character receives a DM -2 to the roll
7. The determination of what, if any, characteristics are applicable is determined on a situation-by-situation basis.

Notice what this gets us:

• Players have a consistent sense of what their characteristics offer
• Higher characteristics offer better +DMs, and exceptional characteristics (in the 12-15 range) might end up offering exceptional benefits
• Sometimes the Referee will want a Throw value that requires exceptional DMs. As the passage in The Traveller Adventure states: “It is even possible for a referee to make the situation number greater than 12, thus making success impossible unless the players can provide necessary skills or tools with DMs to get their throw also above 12.” With the method above, a character caught up in a situation with a Throw Value of 13 or higher will receive at least a DM +1. This means rolls that might otherwise be impossible might be possible–though other DMs wrangled from other fictional details and circumstances might be required as well.
• Low characteristic provide -DMs in a consistent manner, so the character’s handicaps can come into play but not feel arbitrary.
• Unlike the later Task systems introduced to Traveller, a characteristic is not a presumed or required part of a Throw. If the characteristic is applicable, if applies. If it does not, it does not. Which is how I think the game is meant to be played.
• The system also means that even if you have a high or exceptional characteristic you can still be outclassed by the problem. If the PC has a strength of B, but the Throw value is 12, then the PC can’t depend on his strength to change the situation for the better. I understand this might be non-intuitive to many people (“If I’m really strong, why doesn’t the quality of my strength help every time strength can help?”) But we’re looking at those times when the airlock is jammed so much you would need an even higher strength of it to help. In a 2D6 bell curve a +1 to the roll is a really big deal. I want those DMs for when a characteristic can help crush a problem. In other circumstances, the PC will need to find other methods of getting DMs if he or she wants to change the odds. For gameplay, I really like how this works out.

 

[creativehum]

Yet, skills remain sparse on generated characters..

As for this, remember that original Traveller grew out of the early years of the hobby when a great deal,of the problem solving was going to come from the Players puzzling things out, coming up with ideas, and trying to overcome challenges.

The skill on the PC's sheet are light -- in my view -- because unlike later games the Player is not turning to the character sheet to regularly solve problems. Instead, skills offer a change to elide over problems with a bit of knowledge or a lucky roll occasionally. In most cases the Players need to solve their own problems with their own wits. If their engineer died and they need to make repairs to get back to port, the Players will need to find an engineer, or steal the money to hire an engineer, or steal another ship, something... which becomes grist for further adventures.

 

[Supplement Four]

As for this, remember that original Traveller grew out of the early years of the hobby when a great deal,of the problem solving was going to come from the Players puzzling things out, coming up with ideas, and trying to overcome challenges.

Amen!:rofl: