Cultures

[DaveChase]

Talking cultures of humans/societies not what is growing in your open container left in the referigator to long

I am sure that I have raised this issue/comment before on other threads and it might even be an old thread that I have not seen, But

I would like to see some discussions on how attitude/society/cultures view certain actions or 'non believers/followers of tradition'. And how those might be issues of adventure, conflict or even scientific exploritory.

Just take history and different societies/civilizations of what we know.
NOTE: the following is only for historical and active discussion of how cultures effect the world AND NOT a commentary of any one ideas of right or wrong or condoning past activities of cultures. ******

Example: Slavery is one of the easiest to look at from a historical and current day mind set of society.
There is racial discrimination and Country Discrimination.
There is religous conflict since before record time.
There is scienitific versus natural sides of the story even today. (Proof versus known beliefs)

NOTE: the above is only for historical and active discussion of how cultures effect the world AND NOT a commentary of any one ideas of right or wrong or condoning past activities of cultures. ******

One of my favorite SciFI books is

Danger Human by Gordon Dickson

. Almost each story looks at human behavior through the eyes of aliens trying to understand humans. It is funny, sad and thought provoking.

The point behind this is in the Traveller universe before and especially after the Long Night human societies on isolated worlds will be slightly to extremely different than what other worlds might be.

Wars have been fought over a difference of opinion on religion or treatment of humans.

What are your thoughts on or even adventures or worlds that exist with a different view/society as compared to what we know now or is considered to be non Imperial standard view points?

Dave Chase

 

[DaveChase]

Here is one of the adventures backgrounds that I used once

Scientist hires several different individuals to accompany him on a 3 year long research project.

The project is under a grant from ISS and I R&D.

The object of the research is to visit 10 different planets who's worlds/societies are very different, unusual or the Imperial have had issues (disputes due to culture differences) with.

The Scientist is in charge of most of the time and he needs the special skills of the players to accomplish his mission. Sometimes he tells/asks/orders the players to do some things that they just don't understand.

This allowed a more urban type settings and gave some players a chance to interact with the most dangerous animal a live. MAN, Human, homosapien.

Never finished the adventure due to moving but we had some fun in a different way compared to most adventures. It also was important to survive because it was a 3 year journey.

Dave Chase

 

[Icosahedron]

The range of human cultures and the connections between the common features and the radically different aspects interests me, but I've not really had the opportunity to explore it in-game yet.

I've not read the book you quote, but I'd be interested to see just how 'human' the attitudes of those aliens are if you put them under the spotlight. I would strongly suspect that they 'analyse' humans from a distinctly human perspective?

MTU is an ATU and has a number of different cultures; even the Imperium itself has a culture that differs considerably from 'modern western' culture.

One theme I explore is the question of whether slavery is simply an aspect of the class system. How does indentured labour differ from slavery, and how does employment differ from 'serial indenture'?
Are slaves a 'luxury' that only conquering nations can afford? What are the advantages/disadvantages of slaves versus robots?

Another theme is the question of equality and discrimination. To what extent is discrimination a necessity? Suppose incarceration of criminals were seen as discrimination and persecution of 'people with different moral principles' and their rights were upheld in the same way as 'people with different religious principles'?
To what extent could a group of people undermine existing society if that society failed to discriminate against them? And does discrimination therefore serve to maintain equality?

A theme I have aired on this board is the question of whether religion is a human necessity, and what would happen if a society tried to eradicate it completely in every form?

The 'debate' between science and nature can be examined too, what would life be like in a scientific technocracy? Is science a form of religion? How much can actually be 'proven'?

We could go even deeper into human thought processes and develop scenarios to explore principles such as morality, friendship and justice - or deeper still and examine to what extent all of these are human constructs and whether a society could exist without any of them. Which human traits are truly universal for any cohesive society?

A group of Travellers finding themselves face-to-face with any of these culture questions could be embroiled in any number of adventures.
Maybe:

They find themselves without work on a world where unemployment is illegal and must report to the local workhouse.

They arrive on a world where an indiginous species is being systematically hunted down and lobotomised. They free one of these creatures only to find that one by one, they become psychopathic puppets of its psionic mind-control.

They arrive on a world known for its egalitarian attitudes only to find that it is now a religious dictatorship controlled by one of the sects that was allowed to prosper.

They are employed as hunters on a world where a scientific team has conclusive proof that an indiginous species will plunge the planet's ecosphere into irrevocable decline within decades unless that species is hunted to extinction.

The players find themselves doing business on a corporate world where backstabbing colleagues and rivals is literal and an accepted business technique (similar to Trek - Mirror, Mirror).

The possibilities are endless.

 

[Foxroe]

A theme I have aired on this board is the question of whether religion is a human necessity, and what would happen if a society tried to eradicate it completely in every form?

The 'debate' between science and nature can be examined too, what would life be like in a scientific technocracy? Is science a form of religion? How much can actually be 'proven'?

<Chuckles>

This reminds me of the South Park episode where Cartman travels forward time in order to get the not-yet-released Nintendo Wii. All religion has been wiped out, but now all of Earth's cultures "worship" science... except that they continuously clash over how to worship science.

-Fox

 

[DaveChase]

Great ideas

Kind of hard to make a South Park world/culture that players will take seriously in a Traveller universe (LOL)

Then again maybe it could happen like Galaxy Quest or several different Sci Fi TV series like B5, Stargate, StarTrek where a culture decides to become what they have seen on a wavelenght that actually is based on a TV show.

Some culture difference that could get a player/group in trouble could also be very minor or subtle.

Possible situations/incidents.
You speak to a slave. And imediately the man whom owns the slave strikes you and calls for the local police.

You bump into a slave and help them pick up their drop items. The non-slave individuals start throwing things at you and the slave as if you are lepers.

While relaxing on one of the many shores of a lords estate the men freak out looking at the feet of the female in the group. And start beating on her.

You hold the door open for the merchant's wife (the merchant you are working with on a trade agreement.) He back hands his wife and pushes her away and turns his back on you and leaves.

You buy a meal for the person whom you are in talks with. They get very angry, scream at you and leave. Others from the area just look at you as if you are murderer.

Someone tell you something that is great and exciting news. The best you have heard in months. And being your self you say (Oh, great Gods that is good. OR Holy Shit! OR Something using a name or place like heaven/hell) and people start crossing them selves and looking at you like you are the devil.

All of the above are based on actual cultures/situations that have taken place in the real world either present or past.

Dave Chase

Of course these little incidents might seem like an excuse to get the players involved in some situation. It depends on how well you want to develop the world's culture and background.

 

[JAFARR]

Another from the past. Honesty is essential in dealing with one's tribe, clan, etc. However, there are no such requirements when dealing with outsiders. They may be lied to, stolen from or even killed without any ill consequence. And of course you expect the same treatment in return. Where is the source of this? Tribal living like many American Indian tribes for one.

 

[far-trader]

Another from the past. Honesty is essential in dealing with one's tribe, clan, etc. However, there are no such requirements when dealing with outsiders. They may be lied to, stolen from or even killed without any ill consequence. And of course you expect the same treatment in return. Where is the source of this? Tribal living like many American Indian tribes for one.

(maybe I do need that time out )

Forgive the snappy snarky nature of the words here earlier in reply to the above. It still bothers me but I didn't help the problem with my response. RM below said it better with simply suggesting that the choice of your words and example is not appropriate.

 

[Renaissance Man]

Another from the past. Honesty is essential in dealing with one's tribe, clan, etc. However, there are no such requirements when dealing with outsiders. They may be lied to, stolen from or even killed without any ill consequence. And of course you expect the same treatment in return. Where is the source of this? Tribal living like many American Indian tribes for one.

Not that you aren't identifying a possible attitude of some people within any number of cultures, but to put it on "tribals" or natives as if it's their style of doing things is distasteful at best.

Fact is, there are parts of every kind of social group that like to act this way, including democratic institutions, bureaucracies, policemen and military, criminal gangs, religious groups, etc. Including our own.

The study of social identity and its role in human behaviour, particularly violence is interesting. The way groups deal with outsiders varies widely from individual to individual and group to group. But you've identified a tendency whenever there is a strong identification with an ingroup. Muzafer Sherif's "Robbers Cave Experiment" offers much food for thought.

 

[Drakon]

Just take history and different societies/civilizations of what we know.
NOTE: the following is only for historical and active discussion of how cultures effect the world AND NOT a commentary of any one ideas of right or wrong or condoning past activities of cultures. ******

Well, that is a big problem with having any meaningful dialogue, ideas of right and wrong are key to any culture as well as whether that culture survives over time.

The Thuggie cult of India, and the Aztec human sacrifice cults are two cultures that were stamped out, because of the difference of opinion on these very subjects. Both the British and the Spanish thought human sacrifice was bad, while the Thuggies and Aztec disagreed, even using murder as a sacriment. That disagreement, as well as many others, led to the destruction of the indigenious cultures. But more importantly, stopped those practices.

Cultures are really nothing more than a collection of ideas held in common by a populace. Right and wrong are ideas. Where conflicting ideas disagree, there is conflict, and a lot of times, there is no middle ground.

 

[Icosahedron]

Muzafer Sherif's "Robbers Cave Experiment" offers much food for thought.

Interesting.
So all we need for world peace is a few 'supraordinate tasks' or the presence of an outside-outside group.

Global warming and an alien invasion, anyone?

 

[ravells]

I can offer up this example which I read only this morning (an article by Matthew Parris on the current storm in the UK about recent comments made by the Archbishop of Caterbury), I can see this ported over into a Traveller adventure quite easily:

You say," said Lord Napier (confronted as Commander-in-Chief of the British Army in India by locals protesting against the suppression of suttee) "that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."

 

[far-trader]

Not to drag this off (topic) to the pit...

Interesting.
So all we need for world peace is a few 'supraordinate tasks' or the presence of an outside-outside group.

Global warming and an alien invasion, anyone?

Makes you wonder why the government did/does protest so much against the idea of global warming (and, if I must, UFOs )...

...couldn't be that they actually get their power and wealth from conflict could it? Nah, that's insane.

So, to keep this more on topic and Traveller centric, what might be some similar 'supraordinate' tasks in the OTU? Planetary scale, star system scale, subsector scale, sector scale, domain scale, and polity scale?

:smirk:

 

[Renaissance Man]

It's true that in Sherif's experiment, their efforts at bringing the Rattlers and the Eagles together only bore fruit with the introduction of supraordinate tasks. However, it's important to note that the way the groups were formed and the manner in which they were introduced was specifically designed tog generate inter-group conflict.

What we find outside the contrivances of this laboratory, I think, is that in-group and out-group identity formation, and inter-group conflict are managed in a variety of ways. In some societies, at some times, cultural practices are adapted to violence against out-groups (xenophobia, racial hatred, nationalism), at other times, they are adapted to exchange and commerce (curiosity, exoticism, syncretism.) Usually both tendencies are present; history furnishes the inertia toward one practice or another.

 

[Icosahedron]

I just LOVE that Lord Napier quote.

I can see the Imperium doing that, IMTU anyway.


Supraordinate tasks:
Planetary and System level could be upgrading the mainworld starport to increase trade and prosperity.
Likewise, Subsector scale could be an upgrade program leading to opening new trade routes and/or creating/expanding a Main.
Sector scale and above could be a widespread pioneering programme to increase population in far-flung regions.

 

[ravells]

Isoc, I can highly recommend Plain Tales from the British Empire. Very readable book (often hilarious, often touching) about the personal experiences of empire builders in Africa, India and Malaya. - And great material for Traveller!

One example (from memory). Many people just 'fell into' the foreign service. One such was a certain Mr Lucy who was a medical officer on a ship. On a stop off at Singapore the crew played cricket against the Singapore cricket club, and Lucy scored a century. The Governer of Singapore, who watched the match, summoned him to his residence afterwards and told him, 'You're just the sort of chap that we want in the Malayan Civil Service.' And so, because he was good at cricket, Mr Lucy spent the rest of his days in Malaya.

What is interesting is that in selecting officers, they put a lot more stock by people who were very outdoorsy, good at games and were good social mixers than acedemics. Finding that the former were much more adaptable and resiliant than the latter.

 

[DaveChase]

Yeah, discussions

Yes, differences of opinion, belief and such will more than likely cause conflict. My intent of mentioning customs, practices and traditions of the past and current societies was only to generate ideas and the thinking cap.
Note: I never mentioned what culture or suggested what culture these came from in public.
That was on purpose, as to try and keep the discussion on what future cultures or cultures in the game of Traveller might be like.

I was hoping and still am counting on that in these discussions of culture that we might come up with some very interesting subplot twists for GM's and maybe even a very interesting culture or 3.

One example of culture difference in Traveller is PSI versus non-PSI cultures. Just inside the Imperial this is treated one way, and out side the Imperial this is treated a different way And inside Hiver space it is not believed

Heck, many SciFi novels have colonies based on a one culture, religion or belief. America, some other countries and even colonies based on religion were originally concieved or brought about for the reason of 'we wish to do X different and do not want to be with Y group any more.'

Some of these colonies/countries have succeded to stay true to their ideals but some last only a few decades or so.

Culture is a big word that can encompass a lot of different things. I just hoping that ideas of how these can effect game play could be used to enhance a game.

Heck, maybe its the characters that have the strange culture and are trying to convince the normal worlds to change.

Here's an idea for an adventure:
Wanted a ship to transport cargo and or passengers to 'Name that world'. Pays well and could be come a regular route for supplies.
(The group is a bunch of differents and not an extremist group. They are just in need of regular supplys and transportation for those whom wish to join. But, boy howdy, they sure have some very strange customs/requirements to interact with them.)

Dave Chase

 

[coliver988]

I'm at a loss to define or describe a culture right now, but one author I've enjoyed reading lately (C.J. Cherryh) goes pretty in-depth on alien cultures (non-human usually). For instance, in the Foreigner Series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreigner_(novel) ) the Atevi are biologically driven to associations or groups, and think in much more mathmatical terms. Numbers are of extreme importance, with some numbers being felicitous, and others not; for instance, they HATE the number 2, it seems incomplete. So pairs of things are unfortunate, and this shapes how they do interact with the humans on their planet. A lot of the stuff is biologically driven, a lot cultural. But the whole number thing (a numeric feng shui if you will) could make for some interesting plot twists: no, we cannot put two of us in a stateroom - that would be un-felicitous! Or they won't fly on a ship with only 2 hatches: 1, or three is fine...so their ship architecture would be different possibly.

 

[rancke]

I just LOVE that Lord Napier quote.

I can see the Imperium doing that, IMTU anyway.

"You say that when dealing with people without honor -- by which I gather you mean anyone whose notions of honor differ from those of your own -- it is your custom to treat them as expeditiously as possible. Well, the Imperium has its customs too. When someone uses poison gas against people who are under the Imperium's protection, it is our custom to take them, together with those who ordered the deed, and put them in an airlock, whereupon we open the airlock and leave them to drift in the cold dark of outer space for all eternity. You have practiced your custom. Now we will practice our."

-- Vice Admiral the Lord Roderick Gianbatista, CO, Outrim Void Task Force, 045-645


(No, this isn't canon. It's from something I'm working on at the moment. Any guesses about what sort of beings Lord Roderick is addressing? )


Hans

 

[DaveChase]

Novels and series

I'm at a loss to define or describe a culture right now, but one author I've enjoyed reading lately (C.J. Cherryh) goes pretty in-depth on alien cultures (non-human usually). ....

I forgot how good she is with such. Thanks for the reminder.

Which makes me think of something else we might all be able to add/create list of authors/stories that deal with cultures.
They could be fiction, nonfiction or Science Fiction.

How about this for a general format

Title
Author
Culture type addressed or describe
Short description of unusally culture or how cultures are addressed


My current addition


Danger! Human
Gordon Dickson
Human culture in the future as seen through the eyes of aliens

Several short stories about aliens dealing with humans. Takes different generalizations of human nature and the conflicts/misunderstandings of which when the aliens try to figure out humans.

Dave Chase

 

[Drakon]

Heck, many SciFi novels have colonies based on a one culture, religion or belief. America, some other countries and even colonies based on religion were originally concieved or brought about for the reason of 'we wish to do X different and do not want to be with Y group any more.'

This is something that does not get explored enough, either in fiction or scientific research. Doing things differently does not necessarily mean successfully. It does not mean that your ideas will work. Many of the experimental colonies in America, (I am thinking Shaker communities as one example) failed, not because of a lack of zeal, but simply the ideas they held, that formed the basis of thier culture simply are incompatable with the real world. The first pilgrims who settled damn near died out because they adopted community ownership of the land and produce. It seemed like a good idea, consistent with Christian teaching and all. But they simply could not produce enough food to feed themselves that first winter.

And there is some great ideas there, in how one deals with a failing culture, or experimental colony. The memes of the culture may mutate, in order to stave off extinction. How will they react to their old, but "kaffir" supply ship crew their next trip?