Cutlass for the Marines

[Epee]

When I first purchased "Traveller", way back in 1977, I found the three-book boxed set at a book shop that stocked games (a two-hour road trip to a neighboring city). For months that was it. Then "Mercenary" followed, and after a bit longer the first pre-packaged adventures started showing up and, within a year, the Imperium was fully established and being fleshed out.

I always had the impression that the "Imperium Universe" was an addition to, but not a part of, the Classic Traveller rules. T5 certainly gives the impression otherwise although, off the top of my head, there is little in the mechanics that "demands" a specific setting although social status strongly implies certain assumptions.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Supplement Four]

I always had the impression that the "Imperium Universe" was an addition to, but not a part of, the Classic Traveller rules.

That's certainly how the game was originally intended--as a generic set of rules for Refs to run their own science fiction games. The Third Imperium setting grew up around the rules later, but at some point, TTI and Traveller came to be referred to by many players as the same thing.

 

[Ulsyus]

While it's nice to be able to run things in our own settings, it's a lot more work to do it all ourselves, so defaulting to a well constructed and supported setting is a great alternative. We all know that we can alter it to generate OTU, but there's certain constraints to even our own settings unless we alter the technology in the original rules.

How many people change the % of a hull that's required for J-drive fuel? How many have added lightsabres from a TL17+ site (well, maybe not since being a teen...)? How have you had to change the rules to suite your setting? Which brings us back to who modifies the technology of blades to it's worthwhile carrying a cutlass so it's still an effective and useful weapon in close quarters combat?

 

[Epee]

You don't have to modify the rules, just lower the available tech; either by law level, situation or remoteness of manufacturing.

 

[salochin999]

I have used those same movies to describe how I traditionally view the Traveller setting, too. So, I see your point.

Lately, I've been wondering if I've been downplaying the feudal system too much. I think I have. Like in Star Wars, the system seems to be just an after thought--a "soft" feudal system as in just another government type. Not what I'd called a "hard" feudal system, like that from the Middle Ages or as what we see in Dune.

I think next time I run a Traveller game, I'll make the feudal system more invasive.

I think that makes sense. On the one hand you have how an Imperium could work across those distances - which implies decentralization obviously but to me also implies primarily the control of space, which implies control of navy, star ports and shipyards and then if you tie that in with all the hints to the Soc stat in the Navy career I like to wrap the feudal system in with the navy and the star ports. Their fief is a star port.

edit: If you think back to medieval feudalism you had the landed nobility and some landed knights but there were also large numbers of landless knights that worked as retainers to the landed nobility. I make the officers in the Imperial Navy are the equivalent of those household knights.

 

[rancke]

edit: If you think back to medieval feudalism you had the landed nobility and some landed knights but there were also large numbers of landless knights that worked as retainers to the landed nobility. I make the officers in the Imperial Navy are the equivalent of those household knights.

The thing about medieval feudalism is that that was 500 years and more ago. The feudalism of the Imperium, such as it is, was created by people with access to another 3,000 years of political history on top of that. They could pick and choose the bits that they thought worked best. It would be exceedingly strange if they had chosen to do a cut and paste of medieval feudalism.

The relationships between the emperor and his dukes can, if looked at one way, be construed as feudalistic. None of the other relationships that we've seen described up until now (not including T5) appear to be feudalistic in nature. Knighthoods are specifically handed out for achievements, British Empire (and other post-feudalistic nations) style. Noble titles (other than, arguably, high noble dukes) do not appear to be feudal either.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

... One guy wants Marines to use a cutlass on a boarding action, another thinks that's wrong. Where is the problem with that?

Well, it is wrong.

I see this forum as a place where people go to give and get advice. There is to my knowledge no enforcement mechanism that forces anyone to take any given bit of advice. Someone brings up an issue, we argue, when the dust settles people either change their opinions or they keep doing what they were doing before, as is their right. Heck, there's no enforcement mechanism that forces anyone to follow the written rules - any player walking into any gamemaster's game knows that the gamemaster may have his own variations that he may prefer to use instead.

So, if someone reads the thread and comes away thinking, "Hey, using swung bladed weapons in confined spaces against armored foes is probably not the best plan," well good. And if they instead think, "Nah, the folk of my warring cultures are guided by centuries of martial tradition, not by some armchair general's calculation of swing arcs and impact forces," well, that's fine too.

The cutlass as presented in CT and Striker, against foes who likely are wearing at least cloth or vacc suit and probably better, is not an effective weapon. If someone wants to make it of superdense metal and coat the blade with some kid of uber-teflon, or make it buzz, or whatever, then more power to them, but then we're talking a different debate. Still, history is full of instances where weapons were kept long after their usefulness had passed.

 

[Supplement Four]

RE: Feudalism

We have rock hard evidence that Feudalism isn't the only political system at work in the Imperium through the Govt code of the UWP. Worlds can be governed any number of ways.

Was it Hans who said that the feudal system must only be felt once one leaves his Homeworld? That makes a lot of sense. Unless, you grow up on a world like Aramis, which is the fief of the Marquis of Aramis--thus, the Aramisians live day in an day out with the feudal system.

If you grow up in a representative democracy, that's probably all that matters to you unless, for some reason you need to leave your world--and even then, you will only have to deal with the government type of your destination world.

I guess the Imperial Feudal system is known to the Imperial Citizens much like the Federal Government is known to the citizens of states here in the US. Except, even then, I would guess the Imperial Feudal system is much less invasive.

It's an interesting balance.

One thing about the Traveller RPG, unlike many other rpgs. The game never ceases to provide interesting grey matter challenges. The game is always giving me something cool to think about.

This is just another one of those things.

 

[salochin999]

I always had the impression that the "Imperium Universe" was an addition to, but not a part of, the Classic Traveller rules. T5 certainly gives the impression otherwise although, off the top of my head, there is little in the mechanics that "demands" a specific setting although social status strongly implies certain assumptions.

Just my $0.02.

I guess that's the crux of it. The question isn't so much why do marines use a cutlass in Traveller (as you could set Traveller in any number of Space Opera settings where cutlasses made sense). The question is why do marines get an automatic cutlass skill in YTU if it doesn't immediately make sense in YTU.

MTU is a mixture of "Dune" and "Outland" so a cutlass doesn't immediately make sense however I guess you could make it a training thing - a mixture of physical exercise and zero-g training - like zero-g fencing in the cargo hold.

edit: I quite like that actually - with marines carrying them ashore as a badge.

 

[salochin999]

RE: Feudalism

We have rock hard evidence that Feudalism isn't the only political system at work in the Imperium through the Govt code of the UWP. Worlds can be governed any number of ways.

Yes, that's why I make it all about the star ports.

If you control space - the navy, star ports, orbital stations, shipyards etc - then you can let the local planetary govt. be whatever they like.

The star port is the castle.

 

[Supplement Four]

MTU is a mixture of "Dune" and "Outland" so a cutlass doesn't immediately make sense however I guess you could make it a training thing - a mixture of physical exercise and zero-g training - like zero-g fencing in the cargo hold.

The Marine Cutlass comes across to me as very "Dune-ish", but not so much "Outland-ish".

Hey! That's a pun!

The star port is the castle.

Then, sometimes, the castle is a piece of bedrock with an "X" painted on it.

 

[salochin999]

The thing about medieval feudalism is that that was 500 years and more ago.

Hans

True but the pattern repeats in history wherever there are long communication times between the core and periphery, for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satrap

 

[rancke]

True but the pattern repeats in history wherever there are long communication times between the core and periphery, for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satrap

The pattern of governors appointed by a king to administer his provinces?


Hans

 

[salochin999]

The Marine Cutlass comes across to me as very "Dune-ish", but not so much "Outland-ish".

Hey! That's a pun!

Yes, that's the problem with it for me - it half fits how I see the OTU so I'd like it to be there if I could see a good reason for it.

Then, sometimes, the castle is a piece of bedrock with an "X" painted on it.

Yes that's the other side of it. If the key to power is space and the things that control space: navy, star ports, shipyards etc, then the powers that be don't need to care about the backwater planets at all - which is great as that gives you half the OTU for Ducal conspiracies and dreadnoughts and the other half for Firefly.

The way I'm doing it currently is a Duke at the sub-sector hub planet and Counts and Barons at the other high population, high tech A and B class star ports with the rest mostly ignored i.e. they're only on planets where the Imperium needs a controlling noble airlock between the planet and space.

 

[Kaeto]

In mtu The Feudal Lords Have direct control over the systems in their fief and can restrict all interplanetary and interstellar travel.

As far as the Code Duello goes there is a Marquesa who when another noble challenges her they had best ensure that their heir is ready to take up the reins as they won't be leaving the field alive.
She is also an Imperial Navy Admiral.
Here she is in what she typically wears to court.

And in her Navy Dress Uniform.

 

[rancke]

RE: Feudalism

We have rock hard evidence that Feudalism isn't the only political system at work in the Imperium through the Govt code of the UWP. Worlds can be governed any number of ways.

And that's why the barons and marquesses of member systems can't have those systems as their fiefs. In most cases the rule of the system isn't the emperor's to hand out to anyone. (And in those cases where it was his to give, the government would be a captive government).

Was it Hans who said that the feudal system must only be felt once one leaves his Homeworld?

Not me.

That makes a lot of sense. Unless, you grow up on a world like Aramis, which is the fief of the Marquis of Aramis--thus, the Aramisians live day in an day out with the feudal system.

The Marquis of Aramis may be an exception to the non-feudal nature of relationships between the Imperium and its member worlds. With a political hodge-podge like the Imperium, a few exceptions to the norm can be expected. But if so, it's difficult to explain why the government code is not '6'.

Note that I'm not disputing that Aramis itself has a feudal system. My own suggestion is that the Marquis of Aramis, while appointed by the Emperor, is ruler of Aramis ex officio -- that one day the people of Aramis elected to be ruled by the Marquis. Propably to do with the fact that most of them lived in the city that was the Marquis' fief. (It's Leedor that is his fief, not Aramis; if Aramis had a more spread-out population the set-up could easily be different.)


Hans

 

[salochin999]

The pattern of governors appointed by a king to administer his provinces?


Hans

That's right. It's an example of the model of organisation that almost always arises when communication times are very high between a core and a periphery. The point being the model is very common in history and not just the European middle ages as you seemed to be implying.

 

[rancke]

Yes, that's why I make it all about the star ports.

If you control space - the navy, star ports, orbital stations, shipyards etc - then you can let the local planetary govt. be whatever they like.

The star port is the castle.

Major Imperial worlds have system defenses that outweigh Imperial fleets and multiple ports. Only one is the Imperial starport, but the other spaceports must function to funnel traffic through. Otherwise, why have them?


Hans

 

[sabredog]

The question is why do marines get an automatic cutlass skill in YTU if it doesn't immediately make sense in YTU.

If you make that "The question is why do marines get an automatic cutlass skill in OTUif it doesn't immediately make sense in the OTU." Then it makes the point I have been trying to: if skill with the weapon is just ceremonial, or makes no sense because the Marines do no not actually use them in combat, then why is this an automatic skill for them in canon? Why isn't it the automatic skill for officers, when officers instead get a gun?

Obviously, someone thinks the cutlass is a viable weapon or Marines wouldn't be trained in them, they'd just get one for dress uniform wear and not get the skill.

 

[rancke]

That's right. It's an example of the model of organisation that almost always arises when communication times are very high between a core and a periphery. The point being the model is very common in history and not just the European middle ages as you seemed to be implying.

That pattern can by feudal, but need not be. Indeed, the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire wasn't, nor were the post-medieval European kingdoms.


Hans