Cutlass for the Marines

[aramis]

If I understand this, it suggests the Cutlass might be more used in personal non-fatal (but scarring) duels marine-to-marine (or able spaceman-to-able spaceman) than as a primary weapon for attacks vs. the "enemy"...I think that is a brilliant explanation!

A cutlass is far too likely to open the cheek or forehead down to greymatter.

A foil, however...

There were dueling schools that used blades not unlike the modern double-epeé as a tip slashing and thrusting blade. And the Schlager praxis was flicking cuts across people's faces. The Foil of traveller is probably more like a sharpened epeé than a proper modern olympic foil.

 

[Travellerspud]

...a saber and a cutlass are pretty much the same (I thought)...didn't they conduct honor duels with sabers (for scars)? Or were those just foils and the like?

I did fence for a year in college, but only did foil (tried saber "unofficially" a few times though! Epee was just too weird for me...)

 

[sabredog]

No, the sabre and cutlass are different animals. A cutlass is shorter and usually heavier. This is the sort of thing the average person misunderstands about swords and knives: they have different shapes, weights, curves, grips, and guards because they each approach the problem of stabbing and/or cutting your opponent differently. There is some superficial similarity between a lot of them, yes, but once you start to understand the subtleties of how each major type is actually used you see why they can't really be compared to each other in a deep way.

Everyone has their own philosophy of swordplay so the weapons are examples of form following function according to that philosophy. It's like the way sport fencing has evolved across nationalities: the Italian school is nothing like the German one, which isn't like the Russian or French - and none are like the American. And each school used to have (and still do in some cases) their own style of grip and guard to go with their respective philosophy of combat.

That's not to say you couldn't pick up a cutlass and do really well with it if you have experience with a sabre - obviously you would once you got used to its weight and balance and adapted accordingly. But some weapons are designed to be used by someone with minimal training, too, and the cutlass is one of those. So it is smaller, heavier, and its balance is different than a sabre and while you can get pretty fancy with one it is made to be pretty dangerous in the hands of someone likely to beat the crap out of it chopping at his opponent using the "Brute Force School" of fighting. Kind of like some of the college fencers I used to compete against.

Ow....just kidding. College fencers are awesome - they help you earn you first level.

 

[aramis]

...a saber and a cutlass are pretty much the same (I thought)...didn't they conduct honor duels with sabers (for scars)? Or were those just foils and the like?

I did fence for a year in college, but only did foil (tried saber "unofficially" a few times though! Epee was just too weird for me...)

The fencers' saber, epée, and foil have far more in common with each other than with the combat saber and duelists' epée (which was a very thin and somewhat long smallsword; the foil derives from the same weapons).

The cutlass and (martial) saber are more similar to each other than to any modern olympic fencing weapons.

And, for practical purposes, the USMC Mamluke is a variant hilted saber, rather than a cutlass, but the manual for both is identical. The same parries, guard stances, attacks, and d&c stances; the cutlass only adds hilt strikes.

The practical matter of fighting with a military saber, cutlass, or mamluke, or the various scimitar/shamsheer family, was taught generally by slow-work, target work, and "baited" blades: rebates are blunt, with rounded edges. Work against pell posts (padded wooden posts) was added for speed, work against dummies was used for cavalry practice. All are curved blades, all are 1 or 1.5 edged, all have thrusting tips.

I've gotten to play with a rebated shamsheer (darkwood armories' practical) in fencing SCA rapier; the transition from straight to curved blade takes a couple hours at most. If my knee would tolerate fencing anymore I'd have bought one, as they do have a few tricks a straight blade doesn't.

 

[sabredog]

Of course sport weapons are different than the combat ones, I was only illustrating my point about specialization. And yes, as I said, if you are already familiar with a similarly designed weapon you'll be able to use another one kind of like it, maybe not equally well right away, but you'll be better off than if you are used to using say, a rapier and then picked up a Grosse Messer.

But all nit picking and rivet counting aside, I think the meat is off the bones on this one....we're down to trying to remember what the horse even looked like after having ground it down to dust.

My last jab is that IMTU Marines use cutlasses because I like the idea as portrayed in the original game. They use big, superdense cutlasses if in Battle Dress because they may as well get the benefit of a heavier, denser blade that holds an edge really, really well if they are going to dice up bad guys while wearing powered suits. For that sort of thing I give special cutlasses an extra D6 damage and +1 against all armor on top of any extra DM's from the increased STR from wearing the suit.

 

[Ulsyus]

bear in mind a large cut along a fabic suit limb in vacumn may result in a much more effective decompression than a puncture wound might.

Good point, as it would be harder to patch - based on my assumption that most emergency patches would be for small tears or punctures rather than long slashes.

A thrust with a cutlass (made of superdense) by a battle dress armoured trooper could also simply tip an opponent A over T and leave the thruster with an advantage over the thrustee...

But all nit picking and rivet counting aside, I think the meat is off the bones on this one....we're down to trying to remember what the horse even looked like after having ground it down to dust.

Some of us who did kendo and associated styles may have some other ideas about how they could be used, but you've got a point.

 

[Supplement Four]

I read somewhere that Marc included the Cutlass in CT because US Marines still used the antiquated bayonet in the 70's, when Marc was writing Traveller.

My personal handwave has been that blade weapons are still relevant when you're out on the hull of a spacecraft fighting pirates. Cutting a life support tube is easier than shooting an enemy then dealing with the recoil.

So, when your accelerator rifle runs out of ammo, you pull the cutlass and REPEL ALL BOARDERS!

That's why one uses laser rifles in Z-gee... Also, it would take one incident before they decided to upgrade umbilical cords from cardboard tubing to something that can't be cut by a primitive blade weapon. Also, do you realize what happens in Z-G when you swing that sword? MUCH worse that the recoil from a firearm.

Good comments, HG_B. Food for thought.

I was thinking about the above exchange, and although HG_B makes some excellent points, I was also thinking about real life.

In a perfect universe the "cuttables" would be upgraded to something that couldn't be cut by blade weapons, as HG_B says. But, the universe isn't perfect, is it?

This is "us against them" thinking, as if it's our one army against their one army. But, out in the Empire, there are 10,000 worlds and probably as much variation on vacc suit design.

In a perfect universe the upgrades would be made if it were a very inexpensive and easy process. But, I don't think that would be true of a material that cannot be cut by blades, especially at the lower space tech levels. And, if the materials aren't available, or the cost is just too high, then even the higher tech level suits from manufacturers of certain worlds would not be protected either.

Sure, there are some upgrades with uncuttables--some premium suits from some planets. Maybe the Imperial Marine suits are made that way. But, the local Marines from the planet Boo-Boo may not enjoy the same quality.

On top of this, we haven't even started talking about Alien design and materials.

Therefore, I still go with my initial statement. The Marine cutlasses have a practical use for a Z-G Combat trained Marine, and that is to cut up the hoses and lines on an enemy's vacc suit.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

Also, bear in mind that not every potential target is going to be a Zhodani warship stuffed full of Consular Guard in combat armour and Battle Dress.

The Marines are also going be boarding civilian ships crewed by (mostly) law abiding spacers, or down on their luck pirates equipped with whatever was cheap because that's all they can afford. Against civvie vac suits, the cutlass may be very effective.

Plus, their may be a simple utility reason to be carrying a large cutting tool: A fair proportion of the starships a marine will board will have been shot to hell and back beforehand, and the crew spaces may now be covered in debris and cabling. Having a handy chopping tool to clear a path may be the reason marines carry them, and training them to chop people with it is just common sense if they are carrying it anyway.

 

[rancke]

Is there any canon evidence that Imperial marines carry cutlasses on boarding expeditions?


Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

Is there any canon evidence that Imperial marines carry cutlasses on boarding expeditions?

I've seen Marc say that they do on the net, but that was a long, long time ago--I think on the TML, but it may have been here on this forum (the old one).

He said something about how, when he was in the service, they still trained with bayonnets, even though they are out moded. He said the cutlasses are the same thing.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

MgT Sector Fleet says they do, but more as a matter of tradition board hint than as a serious weapon. the first two marines though the door in a boarding party have drawn cutlasses, but this is mentioned as only being done when not expecting trouble (if they are, the first thing though the door is a grenade. ). they are explicitly called "ceremonial weapons".

However, that's pretty recent (copyright 2009), so my guess that it was added to justify cutlasses (or to give inventive players a chance for a swordfight,...)

 

[Supplement Four]

Is there any canon evidence that Imperial marines carry cutlasses on boarding expeditions?


Hans

I'm not sure how "official" Grand Fleet is considered, but Martin wrote this:

Navy Cutlass

The Navy Cutlass is a ceremonial weapon rather than a serious
combat tool. However, cutlasses are kept sharp and personnel
drill with them, just in case. The standard Personnel Cutlass is
rather plain and utilitarian, while Petty Officer’s weapons are
rather decorative, and officers’ even more so. Slightly different
patterns of cutlass are issued to officers of various grades, but all
are variations on the theme of a long, heavy curved blade with a
semi-basket handguard. Cutlasses can be use to thrust but this is
a little awkward. By ancient tradition, the enlisted personnel cutlass
is known as a “butcher’s blade”.

Navy Foil

Essentially a light, thin-bladed slashing sword halfway between a
foil and a cutlass, the Navy Foil is favored by some officers to the
officer’s cutlass. It is a reasonably practical light self-defense tool,
inasmuch as any sword can be considered to be that.

 

[salochin999]

The adventure A0 i was looking at yesterday mentions cutlasses in the ship's locker.

In the past I thought it was nuts and changed it more or less instantly to laser carbine but... now I wonder.

Two points imo
1) What does cutlass mean? Originally in my head it was a long cutting weapon that needed a lot of room to swing so not at all suited to fighting in narrow corridors but after reading the thread and googling some cutlasses like this French naval one

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/MuseeMarine-sabre-p1000456.jpg

I can imagine a heavy, choppy, stabby cutlass could be useful on a ship. The advantage might be having both a point and an edge it could get round different types of armor - plus a basket hilt for punching people in the face with.


2) Function - after reading and seeing lots of scifi over the years I associate the word "marine" with assault troops dropping from space but most of the time they're shipboard security.


Alternatively just make up a standard marine issue Omnitech Cutlass 5000 laser pistol and they can have an automatic Cutlass-1 with that.

 

[Ulsyus]

Another consideration may just be the amount of time available to develop a professional standard of competency in the use of the weapon by marines.

High-tech militaries demand a lot from their personnel in terms of competencies they're expected to meet, far more so than in the past. It takes a lot of time to train a trooper these days, at least if they're expected to be able to use a number of pieces of equipment. Adding another demanding skillset like this may be deemed too much for a training program, especially if the returns on it are considered marginal.

This could be offset by advanced technical education techniques or aids (holodecks, memory tapes a-la C.J. Cherryh) but would still need to pass an essentiality to justify it in their cost-projections for the unit operating/training budgets.

That doesn't mean that there couldn't be a strong culture of it being a martial art or skill practiced in a club setting within a batallion/regt/unit, so there's still plenty of room for justifying the development of the skill for PCs and NPCs.

 

[sabredog]

I'm not sure how "official" Grand Fleet is considered, but Martin wrote this:

Those are the most rational and realistic reasons for the weapons to exist in the context of Traveller (at least in the OTU) that I've heard.

The 'foil' sounds a lot like a smallsword or hanger.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

Those are the most rational and realistic reasons for the weapons to exist in the context of Traveller (at least in the OTU) that I've heard.

The 'foil' sounds a lot like a smallsword or hanger.

that passage Supplement Four quoted is repeated almost verbatim in MgT Sector Fleet (which I;m guessing is supposed to be the equivalent book for MgT).

and yes, the description of the foil makes me think it's supposed to be a smallsword, which contemporary Military dress swords are descended form.

 

[whulorigan]

that passage Supplement Four quoted is repeated almost verbatim in MgT Sector Fleet (which I;m guessing is supposed to be the equivalent book for MgT).

They are both by the same author: MJD.

 

[aramis]

that passage Supplement Four quoted is repeated almost verbatim in MgT Sector Fleet (which I;m guessing is supposed to be the equivalent book for MgT).

and yes, the description of the foil makes me think it's supposed to be a smallsword, which contemporary Military dress swords are descended form.

The Smallsword really isn't the parent of the modern military swords, except maybe the Royal Army's straight infantry officer swords. The smallsword was a civilian weapon; the US military blades are all variants of the backsword or the scimitar, and attained their present sizes and shapes before the smallsword or the US came to be (the smallsword was a reduction of the rapier in the 17th c; the modern shape, profile and size for the various backswords was mid 16th C.).

The differences in blade profile are telling, namely, for backswords: the offset fuller, the triangular blade (until the false edge or half-edge), up to 3/8" thick by 1.5" wide (up to 2.5" wide for and for mamlukes and many cutlasses, the curve. The smallsword was, like the rapier it descended from, double edged, central fullered or unfullered, almost universally straight, diamond or thin hexagonal cross section, and seldom more than 0.25" thick, and usually 0.75" to 1" wide. It's a case of covergence, not descent.

Note that the USMC Mamluk Swords don't even have a european history; they are a middle-eastern blade that has no direct link to European origins at all, at least according to the USMC histories. The Mamluk is a Persian scimitar... The USMC current model is much less curved than many of its forbearers... but it's still a curved, 1.5 edge, recognizably persian weapon.

 

[Supplement Four]

The question is: How often are the cutlasses worn? As part of the dress uniform only? Part of the Zero-G equipment? All the time, with standard duty uniform?

 

[salochin999]

The question is: How often are the cutlasses worn? As part of the dress uniform only? Part of the Zero-G equipment? All the time, with standard duty uniform?

If they're shipboard (or away team) security then all the time when on duty.

If they're ceremonial then only then.

If they're a boarding weapon then only then.


Personally I find the boarding option quite hard to suspend disbelief over.