I think a boarding pike would do better in tight quarters like that.
Cutlass for the Marines
- Thread starter Leitz
- Start date
I think a boarding pike would do better in tight quarters like that.
Wasn't there some sort of hatchet like tool/weapon created for clearing yardarms from the deck that was commonly employed for close quarter combat?
[Edit: Found it ... Boarding Axe.]
If I was in BD gong down narrow ship corridors and wasn't going to use fire arms and the opponents couldn't harm me (as postulated below) I wouldn't bother with something clumsy like a sword. I'd just smash people with my powered, armored fists and arms. One shot and a crumpled mass.
david.wendelken
SOC-12
One of the preferred weapons for fighting **IN** the trenches in WWI was an entrenching shovel with the edges sharpened. In effect it was a short-handled axe.
Of course, the military rifles in use were bolt action with a much, much slower rate of fire...
Of course, the military rifles in use were bolt action with a much, much slower rate of fire...
AND, the regular soldiers didn't have a pistol... So, it was "preferred" because they weren't issued a real weapon of the times to fight with. If they didn't have a shovel the "preferred" weapon would have been the rifle butt, and so on until they were fighting with boot laces.
Maybe instead of an actual boarding pike give 'em an extensible power torch/cutter with a powerful magnetic camp on the reverse end?
Real boarding pikes were used, if my reading has informed me correctly, as tools to aid in climbing aboard and cutting through/clearing rigging and deck debris as well as for stabbing people.
You might see a mix of laser pistols and cutlasses, torch poles, "gloop" grenades, and maybe bangsticks?
Every time the Army claims we've gotten past the knife on a stick, we wind up with troops thanking their spouses for unauthorized bladed weapons which saved their lives. From the Indian Wars to the Desert Wars, 3 things a soldier needs: A longarm, a combat knife, and a hatchet. It's always been preferred to be able to make a spear with that knife when the situation warrants, and having that spear be the longarm has always reduced the tendency to abandon longarms when pinned down and out of ammo.
While the modern soldiery carries 50x the ammunition as his civil war era ancestor, they can fire it about 200x faster. (700 to 900 rpm vs 3-to-6 rpm.)
The bayonet is a short, but fairly sturdy and massive, spear. The Rifle itself is a passable club, but a club is far less useful for nabbing rats for the stewpot than a spear.
And, I can say, from practical experience, that a bayonet makes a WONDERFUL home defense implement. The guys not scared of knives tend to be scared of rifles, and vice versa. (Plus, fixing the integral bayonet on an SKS is an intimidating clank. Louder than the bolt.)
As for the cutlass - it's not a great soldier's sidearm in the modern day... but it's a decent "we've been left here because the enemy fleet drove them off" tool. It's impressive as hell when it's the spit-n-polish dress sidearm.
And there are a lot of places you don't want to send marines on liberty unarmed, but also don't want them able to kill entire neighborhoods nor reach out and touch someone through the wall by accident... It's their in-town sidearm. Part of a pattern of force escalation that has an intermediate step between bare hands and pistols.
While the modern soldiery carries 50x the ammunition as his civil war era ancestor, they can fire it about 200x faster. (700 to 900 rpm vs 3-to-6 rpm.)
The bayonet is a short, but fairly sturdy and massive, spear. The Rifle itself is a passable club, but a club is far less useful for nabbing rats for the stewpot than a spear.
And, I can say, from practical experience, that a bayonet makes a WONDERFUL home defense implement. The guys not scared of knives tend to be scared of rifles, and vice versa. (Plus, fixing the integral bayonet on an SKS is an intimidating clank. Louder than the bolt.)
As for the cutlass - it's not a great soldier's sidearm in the modern day... but it's a decent "we've been left here because the enemy fleet drove them off" tool. It's impressive as hell when it's the spit-n-polish dress sidearm.
And there are a lot of places you don't want to send marines on liberty unarmed, but also don't want them able to kill entire neighborhoods nor reach out and touch someone through the wall by accident... It's their in-town sidearm. Part of a pattern of force escalation that has an intermediate step between bare hands and pistols.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I remember reading an Army study once on the use of troops to control civil disturbances. There was a big difference in the effectives of troops with rifles with bayonets fixed and troops with no bayonets. The troops without bayonets were virtually ignored, with those pointy things on the end of the rifle, the civilians would become much more cooperative.
epicenter00
SOC-13
I generally prefer my cutlasses to be "leftover" weapons that are still worn out of a sense of tradition and symbolism rather than truly "practical" weapons. The effort into making a cutlass (or any other melee weapon) into a "practical" weapon would be greater than simply making a better pistol.
That said, I'd like to tender another candidate for the "practical cutlass training" school:
The Long Night. In the dawn of the Third Imperium, the expanding Imperials met any number of cultures that were still in the roughly feudal period of technology (TL2-3). Frequently on such worlds, there were warrior-aristocrats. These guys basically didn't respect anyone who couldn't use a melee weapon as a peer. Such aristocrats were not necessarily stupid; they understood full well that the guy in BD with a VRF Gauss Gun would probably gun down an entire army of their singlehandedly, but their social view said that same fellow still wasn't worth spit if he couldn't fight as a "proper, honorable warrior." This obviously led to countless "incidents" and similar things that caused the trader-diplomats of the nascent Imperium problems. So eventually, it was simply decided that it'd be easier to train the marines to use cutlasses (if they just wore them, it'd cause even more problems - the dishonor of a sword being worn by a lackey who can't use it would cause the Imperium even more prestige loss as well as "diplomatic incidents" when the irate marines turned their rifles on the local warriors) so the marines could not only wear a "proper" weapon but could use it if called upon to demonstrate.
That said, I'd like to tender another candidate for the "practical cutlass training" school:
The Long Night. In the dawn of the Third Imperium, the expanding Imperials met any number of cultures that were still in the roughly feudal period of technology (TL2-3). Frequently on such worlds, there were warrior-aristocrats. These guys basically didn't respect anyone who couldn't use a melee weapon as a peer. Such aristocrats were not necessarily stupid; they understood full well that the guy in BD with a VRF Gauss Gun would probably gun down an entire army of their singlehandedly, but their social view said that same fellow still wasn't worth spit if he couldn't fight as a "proper, honorable warrior." This obviously led to countless "incidents" and similar things that caused the trader-diplomats of the nascent Imperium problems. So eventually, it was simply decided that it'd be easier to train the marines to use cutlasses (if they just wore them, it'd cause even more problems - the dishonor of a sword being worn by a lackey who can't use it would cause the Imperium even more prestige loss as well as "diplomatic incidents" when the irate marines turned their rifles on the local warriors) so the marines could not only wear a "proper" weapon but could use it if called upon to demonstrate.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
That is a pretty good background justification in my view.
personally I think an (English) Rapier-Sword would be a better weapon, heaver than other Rapiers, capable of both thrusting (for in 0g and tight confines) and slashing, double edged so you can do reversed stroke manurers and push through/thrusting slashes.
I know you can preform thrusting manurers with a Cutlass, but the little handling I've done with a couple of types of cutlass and all of them just wanted to slash and chop (just felt natural with the blade), where as a rapier-sword let a relative novice user try a wider range of techniques.
I know you can preform thrusting manurers with a Cutlass, but the little handling I've done with a couple of types of cutlass and all of them just wanted to slash and chop (just felt natural with the blade), where as a rapier-sword let a relative novice user try a wider range of techniques.
I remember reading of this some years ago, and the frustration felt in British Army circles at having to drop what they thought at the time was the best way forward. They were right though.
Wasn't your point that the US is a technological leader (no arguments there, but other nations do on rare occasionally invent or innovate as well...), and that British use of the Lee-Enfield in the 1050's was less than intelligent? If it was, doesn't this speak to what you wrote?
Battledress would work on a feedback system, so you're likely correct in that wearers would have to learn grace and subtlety of movement.
Great idea! This fits very nicely :]
The caveat to handgun beats blade is, of course, predicated on the guy with the handgun having it out and ready to fire already when confronted by the guy with the blade. There is such a thing, you might know, as the "21 foot Rule" - it goes like this:
If I am at least 21' or less from you and have a knife, then I will cut you - probably several times even, before you can draw and fire on me. Even if you have your gun out, it is highly likely that I will severely wound or kill you before you can stop me with gunfire. A longer blade only makes that all the more likely, and training with the blade makes it a certainty. Training with the gun only means you'll hopefully know better than to let anyone with a knife get that close.
Now, given that fighting in starship corridors is going to average within 21', and often a lot less, then I'd argue that a cutlass is a pretty good choice. No, I never cleared a buidling with anything less than my M4 if I had it with me, nor my Glock if I didn't, but that's because I live in a different universe than the one Traveller supposes exists. In that universe Marines actually train with the things, so it can be postulated that they also know better how to use them and under what circumstances.
As a personal example, though, I have a scar on my left forearm from a time when I was clearing a building with my trusty M4, and when the guy lunged out at me from the side with the 3" knife he got a cut in before my partner shot him in the hip and he went down while we backed up right quick. If the guy had training instead of being the usual scared dirtbag, I'm sure that knife would've been in my side or worse. Whenever I hear someone in one of my games start to extoll the unbeatable virtues of gun vs knife in close quarters I have to shake my head in wonder at where they get such nonsense.
BTW: re the shovel thing. In WW2 Soviet and German soldiers has access to the bayonet, shovel, and knife....in most situations the shovel was still the preferred weapon due to its sturdy build and wide, sharp edge. The bayonet got you reach but got in the way, and the knife could break or often got stuck in the body of the opponent because of joints or contracting muscle (that's why you should rotate the sword...lessons from fencing..). The shovel was just a meatax that didn't do either.
Today soldiers learn to use a knife for close combat, and they learn to use their rifle like a polearm. The Russians train their soldiers to use a shovel, too, and the Spetsnaz excel in its use as some sort of emblematic weapon. They throw them through doors apparently.
ALos a little known gunkata fact: while in close combat in actual contact distance with the enemy it is surprisingly easy to shoot yourself and your buddies with you pistol. Especially when you are all tumbled together in a roiling brawl to the death. You have to index the shot against your opponent to guarantee he is the one you hit and not yourself or a partner, and if you index a semiauto (pressing the muzzle against the target briefly to make sure you don't feel it pressing against yourself, or you at least are pointing at a target) you can often take it out of battery and it won't work anymore.
If you start blasting away in close quarters with everyone fighting hand to hand, you will also get overpenetrating shots that can hit and wound your buddies. They hate that sort of thing. Its bad enough getting whacked by a partner's Asp or fist, getting shot by a round that blows through a bad guy's fat belly is just intolerable. This is, though, one of the reason Special Forces and LE TacTeams use subsonic rounds. Not only do they actually work like they should in suppressors, but the hollowpoint versions overpenetrate a lot, lot less often so they are safer to use clearing rooms.
Today soldiers learn to use a knife for close combat, and they learn to use their rifle like a polearm. The Russians train their soldiers to use a shovel, too, and the Spetsnaz excel in its use as some sort of emblematic weapon. They throw them through doors apparently.
ALos a little known gunkata fact: while in close combat in actual contact distance with the enemy it is surprisingly easy to shoot yourself and your buddies with you pistol. Especially when you are all tumbled together in a roiling brawl to the death. You have to index the shot against your opponent to guarantee he is the one you hit and not yourself or a partner, and if you index a semiauto (pressing the muzzle against the target briefly to make sure you don't feel it pressing against yourself, or you at least are pointing at a target) you can often take it out of battery and it won't work anymore.
If you start blasting away in close quarters with everyone fighting hand to hand, you will also get overpenetrating shots that can hit and wound your buddies. They hate that sort of thing. Its bad enough getting whacked by a partner's Asp or fist, getting shot by a round that blows through a bad guy's fat belly is just intolerable. This is, though, one of the reason Special Forces and LE TacTeams use subsonic rounds. Not only do they actually work like they should in suppressors, but the hollowpoint versions overpenetrate a lot, lot less often so they are safer to use clearing rooms.
Practically every Western ever written. When you can draw and fire (and hit) in 1/4 of a second1 , a knife is a little inadequate against you.
1 Oft-quoted figure of one particular Western author I know; mind you, that particular hero was the fastest gun in the West; some of his other heroes took half a second, and the slow ones took a second or more.
Perhaps it's a question of training at both ends of the confrontation? Someone who is good with a gun might be able to counter the knife? I don't know, my knowledge of guns and knives is entirely vicarious.
Hans
Unfortunately not - we always ran recruits through the drill when they first joined the agency, and then they really beat it into them at the academy. We even use a shock knife that really drills home the lesson. It always ends like the experts who teach us say it does no matter who tries the drill - and we do have some recent returns from SOF who know their stuff, too: the guy with the knife at least gets his licks in before you can stop him at either a distance or in contact.
There are several reasons why: first, the mechanics of the knife are simpler and require as much thought and learned action ("muscle memory") as throwing a punch does. A gun, especially in a high stress combat situation requires much more. So the gun is slower.
Second, unless you hit the guy charging you in the head and obliterate the brain (especially the stem) he will have up to 10 seconds or more to keep killing you before he turns of due to blood loss and/or shock. Tens seconds is a fatally long time in combat with a guy armed with a knife. In fencing I could probably parry and hit a guy 5 or six times with a sabre without even trying in less time than that - imagine what trained troops with heavy chopping swords would do to each other in a 1.5m wide corridor.
Training means that you'll have a better chance of surviving the experience and/or killing your enemy during the process, but there is no guarantee you'll always be the guy who shoots the target down before the target hits you.
I second that! Reach out over the heads of the overeager guys in front at the airlock and attack from safety.
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