Damned subtle wordings....

[rancke]

Now there's just jump masking to fix...

What is there that needs fixing? You accept jump masking or you don't. If you don't, you just use the vanilla jump rules. If you do, you calculate how many days the masking adds to the trip and increase the freight and passenger prices accordingly. In either case no fixing required.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

So, should I be able to buy high passage from Regina to Rhylanor for Cr10,000? Presumably the ticket prices are the same, regardless of whether I take a jump-1 ship or a jump-6 one. The only difference is time spent in travel and the number and nature of stops.

No. You must have been thinking different worlds. It's J9 between the two. J6 is the limit.

Taking two J6 worlds, IF there is a J6 Merchant running between the two, then yes, under the CT model, one ticket for 10Kcr will get you high passage between them in one week.

That's a HUGE IF in my opinion though. Without heavy subsidies or other means I can't see a J6 Merchant being created.

If it were my game and a player insisted on the ticket being honoured, I'd allow it... once they designed a ship that worked economically for the route.

 

[rancke]

That's a HUGE IF in my opinion though. Without heavy subsidies or other means I can't see a J6 Merchant being created.

If it were my game and a player insisted on the ticket being honoured, I'd allow it... once they designed a ship that worked economically for the route.

A jump-6 freighter (i.e. cargo only) or merchant (i.e. mix of cargo and passengers) is very unlikely. A jump-6 liner (i.e. passengers only) is possible if the populations are sufficiently large (I'm not sure how to calculate how large 'sufficiently large' is). Large enough that there are enough millionaires and big company executives and high government officials going back and forth to support such a liner. Rich people tend to value their time and be ready to pay to get where they're going in half the time.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Squeezing everything we can out of a J4 merchant...

x.9 for standard design (Canonical)
x.8 for class construction (Canonical)
x.8 for vertical integration (owns the yard and takes no profit there) (Non-canonical)
we can justify x0.576 cost, and 40 year replacement share x0.5 vs payments (also non-canonical but reasonable)
We can cut the cost down to about 0.0006 of cost of hull
800TdJ4 Bk2 422 base 253200. per month. 39075 maintenance share per mo. 96,000 per month in jfuel 3J4 (refined by factor on world), 4,000 per month in PP Fuel, 33,400 in salaries 24,000 in LS... we could push the cost per parsec down (just barely) to Cr584/Td
(283 Td)


Figure a factor office at KCr10 per month for the dirtside factors (FPP engineer and trader/broker, and FPP and their office), and 2 factors per ship minimum (4 is more likely, given Al Morai data) KCr20 additional per month.

But that's pushing absolutely as hard as I'd allow for. and it would require having tankage (not listed) for the fuel...

 

[robject]

Dan, I think it's the logical extension of the one ticket, one price concept. J6 is an arbitrary and unlikely limit for this sort of pricing.

Turned on its head, that's the price a trader might charge if he cannot fill up his staterooms. Book as many as you can for one jump distance. Then if there are rooms left, why not book two jumps away? You're almost guaranteed to book them all, and you're not bleeding quite so fast.

Similarly then, if a ship in Regina says it is jumping to Rhylanor and is accepting passengers, what's the problem? Assuming first profit is maximized by taking short jumpers first.

To sum up, price per parsec decreases as the distance increases. However, availability also similarly decreases, and drastically.

This provides good plot hooks both for the Free Trader captain and the Travelling passenger player characters.

 

[far-trader]

Ah, I see what you're saying. Interesting, though you do run up against a hard wall of loss vs profit pretty quickly at Cr2,000 per jump for Life Support (LS).

First Jump = Cr8,000 clear (not counting Steward etc.)

Second Jump = Cr6,000 clear

Third Jump = Cr4,000 clear

Fourth Jump = Cr2,000 clear

Fifth Jump = Cr 0

Sixth Jump = Cr2,000 loss

So, even the most money grabbing, better something than empty, desperate ship owner would be a fool to carry a passenger beyond 4 jumps. Less actually since I didn't count the Steward expense (salary and LS) There's no profit in it. Better to leave the stateroom empty and save Cr2,000 in LS costs.

The reason I mentioned the J6 limit of course is that the rules are a "in one jump" statement and J6 is the best that Traveller science can do.

 

[rancke]

Dan, I think it's the logical extension of the one ticket, one price concept. J6 is an arbitrary and unlikely limit for this sort of pricing.

But the basic concept is clearly one jump, one ticket:

The difference is that a jump-3 ship can reach a destination in one jump, while the jump-1 ship would take three separate jumps (through two intermediate destinations, and requiring three separate tickets) to reach it.​

(Emphasis mine.)

I don't see the text quoted in the OP as being open to any interpretation other than jump-1 ships charging the same for a one-parsec jump as a jump-3 ship charges for a three-parsec jump. For a three parsec jump the jump-1 ship will charge as for three jumps (since it will BE three jumps), making people prefer to go by jump-3 ship if one is available.

(Mind you, I don't think that makes sense (unless you reinterpret High, Middle, and Low passages to my suggestion of them being passage vouchers); I'm just saying that that's what the rules say).


Hans

 

[far-trader]

I like the plot potential of the begging extra jumps from a ticket so how far can one stretch that High Passage? A little more in depth cost analysis is in order, check my maths...

1st Jump;

High Passage Ticket +10,000
Life Support -2,000
Steward Salary (1/8th) for two weeks -187.5
Steward LS (1/8th) -250
Baggage Allowance -1,000

Total Profit = 6,562.5


2nd Jump;

Life Support -2,000
Steward Salary (1/8th) for two weeks -187.5
Steward LS (1/8th) -250
Baggage Allowance -1,000

Total Profit = 3,125


3rd Jump;

Life Support -2,000
Steward Salary (1/8th) for two weeks -187.5
Steward LS (1/8th) -250
Baggage Allowance -1,000

Total Loss = 312.5

So, by my reckoning, the Merchant is not going to take you past the second jump on the same ticket even if it means running empty.

...actually, on second look, I'm not even sure you'd be able to beg that second hop. It's pretty close to break even. If the Merchant takes you he makes just over Cr3,000. If he leaves you he saves Cr2,000 in LS and can ship freight for another Cr1,000 in your baggage allotment for a total of the same Cr3,000 good on the books. If he ships speculative cargo he stands to make even more on that 1ton freed up. Looks like the economics dictate that a ticket is only good for 1 jump. Unless that intermediate stop has no cargo.

 

[mike wightman]

Hans - I'm being a bit thick here.

How is your voucher system any different from the high, middle low passage system?

Isn't it the same thing just using different words?

 

[rancke]

Hans - I'm being a bit thick here.

How is your voucher system any different from the high, middle low passage system?

Isn't it the same thing just using different words?

Under the canonical system, a captain (or a company) that receives a Mid Passage cashes it in at the next opportunity for Cr8000. Under the voucher system, a ship that takes a Mid Passage in exchange for a jump-1 ticket notes the details on the voucher and cashes it for the cost of a jump-1 passage (say, Cr6000) while someone who takes it in exchange it for a jump-3 passage can cash it for the cost of a jump-3 ticket (say, Cr12,000).

Here's a Fact File for players that I've written about it:

Passage vouchers: Vouchers issued by various Imperial organizations to cover the cost of starship passage. The holder presents the voucher; the details, such as name, date, origin and destination world, and cost of the passage is filled in and the holder given passage. The voucher is subsequently presented to an agent of the organization or someone authorized to redeem its vouchers, who will reimburse the shipping company.

Passage vouchers come in three standard types: A Standard Passage Voucher, or "Mid Passage" as it's usually known, must be accepted by any ship carrying passengers within the length and breadth of the Imperium as full and fair payment for one standard passage of any lentgh in a single stateroom. Standard vouchers were originally intended for low-ranking Imperial civil servants and military personnel. Originally issued only by Imperial ministries and organizations, the enabling Imperial Edict 318 has been amended on several occasions to allow a few civilian organizations, such as the various megacorporations and the Travellers' Aid Society, to issue their own vouchers.

A Priority Passage Voucher, or "High Passage" as it's usually known, must be accepted by any ship carrying passengers within the length and breadth of the Imperium as full and fair payment for one standard passage of any lentgh in a single stateroom at the highest available standard, including cargo space for up to one dT of baggage. Should the ship be fully booked, a passenger not himself holding a Priority Passage Voucher must be asked to leave the ship in order to provide room for the holder of the voucher. Priority vouchers were originally intended for high Imperial officials traveling on official business. Over time this purpose has become somewhat diluted, and by the Classic Era they are issued to people quite far down the organisatorial 'food chains' and freely traded outside the organizations. People who are planning to use them to pay for a jump-1 or jump-2 ticket will often try to sell them to someone planning to make a jump-3 or higher trip. This is technically illegal, but that rule hasn't been enforced for many centuries.

A Low Passage Voucher must be accepted by any ship carrying low passengers within the length and breadth of the Imperium as full and fair payment for one standard passage of any lentgh in a low berth. Such vouchers usually add a disclaimer to the effect that the use of this voucher is entirely at the discretion of the holder and that the issuing organization is in no way liable for damages of any kind resulting from such use. Although travel in low berth is nowhere near as dangerous as numerous urban legends would have it, detrimental effects have been known to occur.

To discourage fraud, the Edict mandates a maximum rate of redemption for passage vouchers of Cr10,000 for Priority Passage vouchers, Cr8,000 for Standard Passage vouchers, and Cr1000 for Low Passage vouchers unless the company can document expenses that warrant a higher price.

Many starships offer passage in shared (double occupancy) staterooms, usually known as "Economy Passage", but no organization issues Economy Passage vouchers.

Retiring members of Imperial services are given enough passage vouchers to get back to their homeworld (or world of enlistment).​

I wrote an article for JTAS Online with greater details some years ago. This is just the essentials.

There are several samples of passage vouchers in the CotI image gallery under my original ID, 'rancke'.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Hans - I'm being a bit thick here.

How is your voucher system any different from the high, middle low passage system?

Isn't it the same thing just using different words?

It almost isn't. In a megacorp dominated market with vertical integrations galore, it can be the same (it's possible to push, with vertical integration, multi-ship-construction discounts, 3-jump factor-supported routes and multik-ton Bk5 TL13+ designs, the cost of shipping down so J4 is under KCr1/Td for cargo - which means the KCr10 per HP works...

A stateroom costs a shipper 4 tons of cargo AND (500000/240 +500000/12000 )= (2083.333+41.666)+ 2125 per month each (about 1084 if using 40y replacement instead of payments).
a HP is 1.125 staterooms AND 1/8 of a steward and an extra ton of cargo.

So the cost of each HP is 5.5 tons of cargo lost, 2250 in LS (including 1/8 steward), 250 in steward salary, 2390 in stateroom cost added to MP and maintenance share... about 4890+5.5 tons cargo space lost - only 1 of which is recoverable if the passenger has no baggage... so you need cargo ton costs below Cr929 to make it turn a profit.

The costs of a mid passage...
4 tons of cargo lost to the SR, baggage is 100kg in room (no cost), 2000 in LS, and 2125 in stateroom costs. for 4Td+Cr4125. that leaves 3875 to cover 4 tons op cost... get the costs per cargo ton below 968/Td for the KCr8 passage to make a profit.

Under Bk2, per parsec costs run consistently between Cr500 and Cr800 per ton per parsec on runs of full rating... for J1-J4.
It's non-flat under Bk5... and it gets slowly cheaper as the ships get bigger.

 

[McPerth]

Under the canonical system, a captain (or a company) that receives a Mid Passage cashes it in at the next opportunity for Cr8000. Under the voucher system, a ship that takes a Mid Passage in exchange for a jump-1 ticket notes the details on the voucher and cashes it for the cost of a jump-1 passage (say, Cr6000) while someone who takes it in exchange it for a jump-3 passage can cash it for the cost of a jump-3 ticket (say, Cr12,000).

From the point of view of the ship capitain, I guess it's the same if your passengers give you a Passage worth one jump or a voucher worth the same. Form the passenger's point of view may be different, of course.

IIRC those vouchers you describe are what you earned instead of Hi Passages in the Solomani Chargen

 

[rancke]

From the point of view of the ship captain, I guess it's the same if your passengers give you a Passage worth one jump or a voucher worth the same. From the passenger's point of view may be different, of course.

From the point of view of a someone building up a setting it allows switching from per jump pricing to per parsec pricing yet still retain almost every part of the old canon (not quite everything, of course).

IIRC those vouchers you describe are what you earned instead of Hi Passages in the Solomani Chargen

Interesting. Are you referring to Alien Module 6?


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Interesting. Are you referring to Alien Module 6?

Yes, but I'm talking from memory, as I have not it here now. IIRC in mustering out you recieved vouchers that allowed you to move from one point to another, not just one jump.

 

[far-trader]

IIRC those vouchers you describe are what you earned instead of Hi Passages in the Solomani Chargen

Very interesting indeed. I'd totally forgotten that little bit of change. Allow me to quote the relevant bit...

Copyright 1986 by Game Designers' Workshop

Vouchers: Vouchers are similar to passages in basic
Traveller; they provide transportation for the holder. Vouchers,
however, provide free transportation (for the named bearer only)
from a specified location within a sector (such as the
Solomani Rim) to another location in the same sector. Vouchers
cannot be redeemed for cash, nor can they be sold. They allow
the equivalent of middle passage and they allow any number
of stopovers. Each use of the passage must be toward, or in
the direction of, the stated destination.

From: Solomani - Traveller Alien Module Six

 

[rancke]

A little more in depth cost analysis is in order, check my maths...

1st Jump;

High Passage Ticket +10,000
Life Support -2,000

Here's another place where regular merchants have an advantage over tramps. Life support costs are not actually Cr2000 per jump, they're Cr2000 per 14-15 days. Rather oddly, it appears that food is such a small part of the cost that if you make two jumps per month, you don't save enough on not having to feed passengers for ten of those days to be worth noticing, but be that as it may, if you make three jumps per month, you get life support costing Cr1,333 per jump.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Very interesting indeed. I'd totally forgotten that little bit of change. Allow me to quote the relevant bit...

I was now reviewing it. Glad to see my memory still works .

EDIT: I guess those vouchers should allow the owner to just cross the sector border too, as I don't believe the same voucher that allows you to jump throughout a sector don't allow you to make just one jump if you cross the border with it.

See that, with those vouchers (allowing you to just cross the sector border), you could go from Terra to Regina with just 8 vouchers (should you receive them in mustering out), or from terra or Regina to Capital with 4 or 5 of them (respectively).

 

[mike wightman]

I don't have it with me at the moment - does A13 give a breakdown of the liner revenue?

 

[rancke]

EDIT: I guess those vouchers should allow the owner to just cross the sector border too, as I don't believe the same voucher that allows you to jump throughout a sector don't allow you to make just one jump if you cross the border with it.

See that, with those vouchers (allowing you to just cross the sector border), you could go from Terra to Regina with just 8 vouchers (should you receive them in mustering out), or from terra or Regina to Capital with 4 or 5 of them (respectively).

Solomani vouchers need not be valid in the Imperium and vice versa. While it's not impossible that they are, I think it's pretty unlikely; the sort of interstellar agreements that would require seems unlikely to exist between the Imperium and the Confederation.

And I see no reason why the Imperium could not have a system that differed in detail from that of the Confederation. No reason to change anything in my proposal.


Hans

 

[MR TEK]

After dealing with burocracy all day..

What makes sense to you and I does not even compute for the poor burocrates that would proved payment on the vouchers.
"The rules say a voucher can be used for a destination within the same sector. Is there anything else that I can help you with?"

I was now reviewing it. Glad to see my memory still works .

EDIT: I guess those vouchers should allow the owner to just cross the sector border too, as I don't believe the same voucher that allows you to jump throughout a sector don't allow you to make just one jump if you cross the border with it.

See that, with those vouchers (allowing you to just cross the sector border), you could go from Terra to Regina with just 8 vouchers (should you receive them in mustering out), or from terra or Regina to Capital with 4 or 5 of them (respectively).

So you would be on your own crossing the sector boundary. You might also be unable to redeem a voucher only in the Sector where it was issued.