Damned subtle wordings....

[aramis]

Just extended the book 5 spreadsheet a bit... 1000's from 2K to 6K, then 10K, 20K, and 50K

Cr/Td/Mo _ J1 TL9__ J1 TL13 __ J1 TL15 __ J2 TL11 __ J2 TL13 __ J2 TL15 __ J3 TL12 __ J3 TL13 __ J3 TL15 __ J4 TL13 __ J4 TL15 __ J5 TL14 __ J5 TL15 __ J6 TL15
____ 200 __ 1886.20 __ 1670.96 __ 1461.96 __ 3825.25 __ 3205.62 __ 2630.64 __ 7552.08 __ 5990.38 __ 4651.79 _ 12331.65 __ 8811.42 __ 47757.81 __ 20883.37 __ 364750.50
____ 400 __ 1700.52 __ 1503.91 __ 1312.59 __ 3360.12 __ 2806.98 __ 2211.84 __ 6202.90 __ 4910.65 __ 3783.38 __ 9136.77 __ 6542.79 __ 22985.36 __ 13024.71 __ 43983.07
____ 600 __ 1609.84 __ 1420.89 __ 1204.51 __ 3032.52 __ 2522.04 __ 2043.54 __ 5574.06 __ 4404.44 __ 3297.45 __ 7873.36 __ 5488.56 __ 17434.50 __ 10495.08 __ 27650.00
____ 800 __ 1591.07 __ 1406.32 __ 1226.27 __ 2927.30 __ 2430.59 __ 1930.14 __ 5290.73 __ 4106.38 __ 3133.90 __ 7326.64 __ 5134.09 __ 15396.84 __ 9235.19 __ 22886.21
___ 1000 __ 1519.02 __ 1338.62 __ 1162.74 __ 2797.41 __ 2287.02 __ 1838.82 __ 4936.40 __ 3887.80 __ 2915.93 __ 6707.47 __ 4785.74 __ 13133.82 __ 8410.50 __ 18658.28
___ 1200 __ 1619.54 __ 1433.73 __ 1252.66 __ 2954.41 __ 2455.85 __ 1964.92 __ 5129.76 __ 4035.08 __ 3066.71 __ 7015.81 __ 4984.21 __ 14347.57 __ 8885.08 __ 20788.66
___ 1400 __ 1596.81 __ 1411.86 __ 1231.61 __ 2916.55 __ 2421.44 __ 1937.12 __ 5113.39 __ 3981.74 __ 3021.72 __ 6974.49 __ 4893.26 __ 13959.85 __ 8671.18 __ 20504.36
___ 1600 __ 1582.29 __ 1385.36 __ 1206.43 __ 2869.48 __ 2379.46 __ 1919.25 __ 5023.09 __ 3913.38 __ 2965.70 __ 6815.13 __ 4784.33 __ 13496.86 __ 8521.15 __ 19445.41
___ 1800 __ 1568.88 __ 1385.04 __ 1195.37 __ 2849.93 __ 2361.59 __ 1902.89 __ 4986.25 __ 3914.94 __ 2942.57 __ 6747.20 __ 4737.55 __ 13470.90 __ 8400.00 __ 19017.36
___ 2000 __ 1549.53 __ 1366.67 __ 1179.06 __ 2836.78 __ 2334.48 __ 1878.76 __ 4928.30 __ 3867.60 __ 2906.46 __ 6646.18 __ 4704.13 __ 13162.38 __ 8229.28 __ 18387.14
___ 3000 __ 1516.20 __ 1516.20 __ 1516.20 __ 2781.40 __ 2781.40 __ 2781.40 __ 4855.62 __ 4855.62 __ 4855.62 __ 6509.16 __ 6509.16 __ 12729.44 __ 12729.44 __ 17558.04
___ 4000 __ 1494.50 __ 1494.50 __ 1494.50 __ 2754.03 __ 2754.03 __ 2754.03 __ 4804.21 __ 4804.21 __ 4804.21 __ 6417.11 __ 6417.11 __ 12519.27 __ 12519.27 __ 17024.96
___ 5000 __ 1499.13 __ 1499.13 __ 1499.13 __ 2754.81 __ 2754.81 __ 2754.81 __ 4809.32 __ 4809.32 __ 4809.32 __ 6381.94 __ 6381.94 __ 12342.18 __ 12342.18 __ 16821.03
___ 6000 __ 1491.00 __ 1491.00 __ 1491.00 __ 2741.09 __ 2741.09 __ 2741.09 __ 4783.00 __ 4783.00 __ 4783.00 __ 6342.48 __ 6342.48 __ 12269.40 __ 12269.40 __ 16599.66
__ 10000 __ 1470.69 __ 1289.37 __ 1112.74 __ 2713.77 __ 2232.91 __ 1781.79 __ 4742.88 __ 3698.20 __ 2773.82 __ 6283.38 __ 4397.13 __ 12099.57 __ 7560.89 __ 16269.00
__ 20000 __ 1466.19 __ 1284.97 __ 1108.44 __ 2707.79 __ 2227.27 __ 1776.46 __ 4734.17 __ 3690.43 __ 2766.84 __ 6271.25 __ 4387.14 __ 12041.65 __ 7518.56 __ 16147.09
__ 50000 __ 1458.49 __ 1277.42 __ 1101.03 __ 2697.90 __ 2217.82 __ 1767.42 __ 4720.38 __ 3677.86 __ 2755.30 __ 6252.61 __ 4371.21 __ 12006.97 __ 7493.20 __ 16074.26

 

[Carlobrand]

What Aramis said!

You're assuming that Wal-mart and Tukera are in similar positions on their respective markets for no other reason that I can see than that you assume they are.

No, that just happens to be the most commonly known example of a large company with a competitive advantage driving out competition by reducing prices. About as like to Tukera as a lab mouse is to a man, probably a good deal less - but then we've gained insights into human biology by studying far more primitive organisms. I could reach into history and drag out better examples, but then I'd have to do a lot more explaining for folk who aren't up on their history. And then there's:

This is actually not the case as far as I can see. If you could find a real world transport firm that had operated for several centuries without actually driving out the competition (there are 12 other megacorporatkions and countless sector-wide, subsector-wide, and interface lines), you might have an analog that had some similarity to Tukera.

There we have it. In order to persuade, I must find an acceptable real-world analog for a centuries-old star-spanning megacorporation - on a world that five centuries ago was largely illiterate and powered by human and animal muscle. Given that nothing terrestrial can be considered an effective analog for something of that age and scale, not to mention the unique circumstances implicit in the structure of the Imperium, it appears you are telling me that nothing will persuade you.

This is a game, yes? Our intent is to draw the best conclusions we can with the information available to us in order to make a fun game for the players. We can change the rules we don't like if our players are all right with that, or we can seek to develop an explanation for rules that helps add color and texture to the culture, perhaps aids us to flesh out the milieu. One thing is certain: we do not all have to agree.

As it is, you don't. So please try to answer my questions instead of assuming that there must be an answer if only you knew it.

I have answered. You don't like the answer, so you set impossible standards. Literally impossible: terrestrial culture has undergone too much change over the past 5 centuries to develop the kinds of analogs you're asking for. At that point, it's easiest to agree to disagree because nothing within my reach can persuade you - which is fine. This is a discussion forum for a game: we take from it whatever works for us, leave behind whatever does not, we do not all need to agree. We just need to all have fun.

Tell you what: until enough time has passed for an acceptable analog to evolve, we can continue to give our opinions and agree to disagree. After all, it's just a game.

 

[Carlobrand]

Aramis, can you perhaps explain the table a bit more?

 

[aramis]

Aramis, can you perhaps explain the table a bit more?

It's the cost per ton of cargo space to operate the various standard financed high guard designed budget boxes.

I think I might have broken something in the spreadsheet.

 

[mike wightman]

Provided they can actually prevent the competition form underbidding them. Which requires someone to enforce the fix. And, incidentally, hampers trade between worlds because fewer goods can be carried at a profit.

The mega corps enforce the fix - its called a cartel - ever hear of one?

I'm ignoring the rest of your post because I just refuted most of it in the previous post.


Hans

You have refuted nothing - you have provided a flawed counter argument based on your own prejudices of how you think things work.

 

[rancke]

The mega corps enforce the fix - its called a cartel - ever hear of one?

Yes, I have. A cartel is an agreement between competing businesses. If there is no agreement there is no enforcement. Cartels can fix prices at a higher level to increase their profits, provided they all voluntarily stick to the agreement[*]. Which means that any business that isn't part of the cartel has both the ability and the incentive to underbid the cartel.

[*] And provided the government doesn't step in to bust up the cartel. ​

Incidentally, cartels hardly ever fix prices to lose money.


Hans

 

[rancke]

No, that just happens to be the most commonly known example of a large company with a competitive advantage driving out competition by reducing prices.

Going back over the discussion it seems that you and I drifted apart at one point. I object to the notion that Imperial regulations require interstellar commercial transports to charge the same fixed cost for any length of jump. You seem to be suggesting that this isn't the case, but that the rules reflect a similar effect achived in some way by Tukera trying to drive competition out of business. I missed that and thought that you were saying that Tukera (and presumably the other megacorporations) had forced the Imperium to enact the aforementioned regulations in order to drive competition out of business.

There we have it. In order to persuade, I must find an acceptable real-world analog for a centuries-old star-spanning megacorporation - on a world that five centuries ago was largely illiterate and powered by human and animal muscle.

No, you should realize that no such analog exists on Earth and that you can't use any Earth company today to convince me that Tukera would do what you claim they do. It's the difference between stating a fact and expressing an opinion. You appeared to be stating an opinion as a fact and using Wal-mart to prove said "fact".

But I admit that I'm getting confused as to just what you think Tukera is doing and how you think that it works.

This is a game, yes? Our intent is to draw the best conclusions we can with the information available to us in order to make a fun game for the players.

Very well, let's look at it from that point of view a little. What is the most fun for a setting? One where a handful of big corporations are more or less all there is and 'mom and pop' companies are few and far between, or one where there are plenty of small fledging lines around?


Hans

 

[rancke]

Passage vouchers

Incidentally, I have a way to introduce per-parsec pricing and still keep the old High, Middle, and Low passages and their prices. It does contradict canon, but in minor and insignificant ways.

Basically, High, Middle, and Low Passages aren't tickets, they're vouchers.

(Note: This is a summation; there's a JTAS Online article called Starship Passage Vouchers that covers passage vouchers in much greater detail.)

Passage vouchers.

Passage vouchers are issued by various Imperial organizations to cover the cost of starship passage. The holder presents the voucher; the details, such as name, date, origin and destination world, and cost of the passage is filled in, and the holder given passage. The voucher is subsequently presented to an agent of the organization or someone authorized to redeem its vouchers, who will reimburse the shipping company.

Passage vouchers come in three standard types: A Standard Passage Voucher, or "Mid Passage" as it's usually known, must be accepted by any ship carrying passengers within the length and breadth of the Imperium as full and fair payment for one standard passage of any lentgh in a single stateroom. Standard vouchers were originally intended for low-ranking Imperial civil servants and military personnel. Originally issued only by Imperial ministries and organizations, the enabling Imperial Edict 318 has been amended on several occasions to allow a few civilian organizations, such as the various megacorporations and the Travellers' Aid Society, to issue their own vouchers.

A Priority Passage Voucher, or "High Passage" as it's usually known, must be accepted by any ship carrying passengers within the length and breadth of the Imperium as full and fair payment for one standard passage of any lentgh in a single stateroom at the highest available standard, including cargo space for up to one dT of baggage. Should the ship be fully booked, a passenger not himself holding a Priority Passage Voucher must be asked to leave the ship in order to provide room for the holder of the voucher. Priority vouchers were originally intended for high Imperial officials traveling on official business. Over time this purpose has become somewhat diluted, and by the Classic Era they are issued to people quite far down the organisatorial 'food chains' and freely traded outside the organizations.

A Low Passage Voucher must be accepted by any ship carrying low passengers within the length and breadth of the Imperium as full and fair payment for one standard passage of any lentgh in a low berth. Such vouchers usually add a disclaimer to the effect that the use of this voucher is entirely at the discretion of the holder and that the issuing organization is in no way liable for damages of any kind resulting from such use. Although travel in low berth is nowhere near as dangerous as numerous urban legends would have it, detrimental effects have been known to occur.

People who are planning to use vouchers to pay for a jump-1 or jump-2 ticket will often try to sell them to someone planning to make a jump-3 or higher trip. This is technically illegal, but that rule hasn't been enforced for many centuries. The going rate tends to be around CrImp7200 for a standard voucher, CrImp9000 for a priority voucher, and CrImp900 for a low passage voucher.

Used passages vouchers are redeemed by the ship for the cost of the passage. However, by custom tramp ships can charge Cr8000 for a standard passage, Cr10,000 for a priority passage, and Cr1000 for a low passage without being questioned. Only if they try to claim more do they have to present accounts to demonstrate expenses that warrant such prices.

Many starships offer passage in shared (double occupancy) staterooms, usually known as "Economy Passage", but no organization issues Economy Passage vouchers.

Retiring members of Imperial services are given enough passage vouchers to get back to their homeworld (or world of enlistment).


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

Going back over the discussion it seems that you and I drifted apart at one point. I object to the notion that Imperial regulations require interstellar commercial transports to charge the same fixed cost for any length of jump. You seem to be suggesting that this isn't the case, but that the rules reflect a similar effect achived in some way by Tukera trying to drive competition out of business. I missed that and thought that you were saying that Tukera (and presumably the other megacorporations) had forced the Imperium to enact the aforementioned regulations in order to drive competition out of business.

... No, you should realize that no such analog exists on Earth and that you can't use any Earth company today to convince me that Tukera would do what you claim they do. It's the difference between stating a fact and expressing an opinion. You appeared to be stating an opinion as a fact and using Wal-mart to prove said "fact".

Thank you for the clarification, and my apologies if I was less than clear. You are correct: no facts related to terrestrial circumstances can "prove" anything about an envisioned far future involving a centuries-old star-spanning civilisation. It can at best hint at possibilities. I provide the example not to prove, but to suggest a possible general mechanism: a larger company using economies of scale to underprice and eliminate smaller competitors. As a general mechanism, it's about as helpful to understanding the details of the process as hitting a frog legs with electrodes helps to understand the details of muscle function - which is to say, a little, but not a whole lot.

But I admit that I'm getting confused as to just what you think Tukera is doing and how you think that it works.

To begin, understand what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to see if the jump-3/4 trade is even possible. If the game presents jump-3/4 ships as part of the milieu [The Traveller Adventure - TA], but the rules make them impossible [Book-2], then there is a conflict and one of the two has to go away - which one is left to the judgment of the game master. If however, there is a mechanism for both to coexist, then there is no pressing need for change.

My first opinion was the rules made the jump 3/4 trade impossible and the rule had to go - I couldn't see dropping the adventure, and I wanted jump 3/4 trade in my universe. Then someone pointed out the old guy's remark in Starship Operator's Manual, and it made sense. Jump 3/4 can survive by getting most of its income through speculative trade; the passenger and cargo transport becomes a sideline, filling in space. It'd have to be pretty lucrative trade, but with three or four parsecs range, you can set up those lucrative routes more easily. Passenger traffic brings in almost twice as much as cargo transport, so it's easier to justify taking passengers along. Cargo transport can be used to ensure that holds are full, just in case your speculative trade does not completely fill your hold.

Given that, a possible explanation for the rule becomes collusion by the megas rather than any commerce-breaking foolish government regulations: the bizarre low rates are part of the game; The megas enjoy certain advantages that allow them to profit at the bizarre low rates, where smaller companies can not; ergo, perhaps the megas are behind the bizarre low rates. Tukera's just one of the players. If the big boys undercut you by charging a lower rate, you aren't going to have much success by asking people to spend more - not unless you have something special to offer - so the lower rates will tend to persist. Imperial law being pretty laissez-faire, in my opinion, the Impies aren't going to fuss about such things much provided it doesn't rise to the point of crippling interstellar commerce.

Ask me why it remains a steady 10,000/passenger and 1000/ton cargo across all jumps, or why it persists where megas have little or no presence and I answer: I don't know. That wasn't my goal, and even colluding corporations are rarely so uniform and consistent. We both know the rule was most likely created just to simplify the game for the game master and players, and any game-universe impact was an afterthought at best. It still doesn't make a lot of sense, but at least now it's endurable; it doesn't utterly destroy the credibility of the Tukera jump-3/4 ships of TA.

Very well, let's look at it from that point of view a little. What is the most fun for a setting? One where a handful of big corporations are more or less all there is and 'mom and pop' companies are few and far between, or one where there are plenty of small fledging lines around?

How about both? There are megas, and there are plenty of fledglings. Both exist per canon.

 

[rancke]

To begin, understand what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to see if the jump-3/4 trade is even possible. If the game presents jump-3/4 ships as part of the milieu [The Traveller Adventure - TA], but the rules make them impossible [Book-2], then there is a conflict and one of the two has to go away - which one is left to the judgment of the game master. If however, there is a mechanism for both to coexist, then there is no pressing need for change.

I agree that if you have two mutually contradictory canonical facts that are both perfectly reasonable on their own, you should just figure out which one you prefer and go with that. I also agree that if you can find a way to reconcile the two reasonable facts then so much the better.

However, I do not agree that per jump pricing is reasonable in itself. It may be possible to justify it, for example with an Imperially enforced tight repressive control apparatus, but even if it was, it makes for a bad setting. So far I haven't seen any justification that works IMO.

My first opinion was the rules made the jump 3/4 trade impossible and the rule had to go - I couldn't see dropping the adventure, and I wanted jump 3/4 trade in my universe.

One very important point here. You have to distinguish between trade and passengers/freight. Trade can justify shipping luxury stuff from Terra to Mora if the markup is high enough, and in that case jump-3 is the cheapest option and jump-4 would be justified on any leg where it saves an extra jump with lower jump ratings. If speed is a factor (such as with China Tea race analogs) even jump-6 may be justifiable, although you'd need a truly humongous markup for that.

Then someone pointed out the old guy's remark in Starship Operator's Manual, and it made sense. Jump 3/4 can survive by getting most of its income through speculative trade; the passenger and cargo transport becomes a sideline, filling in space.

I'm afraid it doesn't make sense. The fallacy is that if you can just manage to turn a profit with filling your ship three quarters with speculative trade and one quarter with passengers and freight that you take a loss on, then you can make a much greater profit with a ship that's 3/4 the size and carries speculative trade exclusively.

Obviously it's possible to come up with situations where a ship would be unable to fill up every time with trade and when any freight charges will add to the profit. For example when you carry bulky stuff one way and low-bulk stuff the other way, you'd have excess cargo capacity on the return leg. But in general the principle will apply. If carrying passengers and freight causes you a loss, you don't want to carry passengers and freight.

It'd have to be pretty lucrative trade, but with three or four parsecs range, you can set up those lucrative routes more easily. Passenger traffic brings in almost twice as much as cargo transport, so it's easier to justify taking passengers along.

Not if you generally take a loss on those passengers. One of Dickens' characters says that if your income is £20, then an outgo of £19 19s 6d leads to happiness while an outgo of £20, 0s 6d leads to unhappiness.

And there's one very big problem with passengers: You have to plan for them when you build the ship. Freight you can carry in the same cargo hold you use to carry trade, but passenger cabins mean a guaranteed loss on every single trip.

Given that, a possible explanation for the rule becomes collusion by the megas rather than any commerce-breaking foolish government regulations:

Only if you can explain just how that collusion works and how it has that particular effect. Just saying "The megacorporations collude" explains nothing.

...the bizarre low rates are part of the game; The megas enjoy certain advantages that allow them to profit at the bizarre low rates, where smaller companies can not;

No, they don't. If it costs a ship Cr12,000 to carry a passenger, then a megacorporation takes a loss every time it carries a passenger for Cr10,000 just as much as a fledgeling line does. Now, a megacorporation can afford to take such a loss better than a fledgeling line, but there's no profit in it unless it's a temporary measure designed to gain them some future advantage, like the ability to charge Cr14,000 for a passage.

If the big boys undercut you by charging a lower rate, you aren't going to have much success by asking people to spend more - not unless you have something special to offer - so the lower rates will tend to persist.

I think you're wrong about that, since there's no profit in the lower rates for the megacorporations. But even if you were right, the lower costs wouldn't be Cr10,000 for both jump-3 and jump-4. If a fledgeling line has to charge Cr12,000 for a jump-3 passage and Cr16,000 for a jump-4 passage in order to stay in business, a mega-corporation bent on forcing them out would offer jump-3 passages at Cr11,000 and jump-4 passages at Cr15,000. There's no point whatsoever in underbidding the target by more than absolutely necessary.

Ask me why it remains a steady 10,000/passenger and 1000/ton cargo across all jumps, or why it persists where megas have little or no presence and I answer: I don't know.

But unless you can explain that, your explanation doesn't work.

How about both? There are megas, and there are plenty of fledglings. Both exist per canon.

Yes, but we don't know how many fledgeling lines there are. With the megacorporations actively targetting them, there'd be a lot fewer than otherwise.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Carlo:

Passengers do NOT bring in almost twice per ton...

Mid Passages in CT cost:

1/480 of a stateroom's cost per 2 weeks (in increased payment) or 1/960 in 40yr replacement cost Either Cr1041.7 or Cr520.9
+
1/12000 stateroom's cost in increased maintenance: Cr41.7
+
2000 Life Support
=
Cr3083.4 (F) or Cr2562.6 (RS)
+
1/120 above for medical staff Cr25.7 (f) or 21.4 (RS)
=
3109 or 2584
​

8000 - 3109 = 4890 —— 122.3% of freight (financed) Cr1222.5/Td
or
8000 - 2584 = 5416 —— 135.4% of freight (Rep. Sched.) Cr1354/Td

High passage costs

As MP Cr3109 (F) or Cr 2584 (RS)
+
1/8 of 3083.4 for steward's SR and LS Cr385.5 (F) or Cr323 (RS)
+
1/8 of Cr3000 for steward's salary Cr375
+
1 Ton of cargo space (no charge in this mode of anlysis)
=
Cr3869 (F) or Cr3282 (RS)​

Remember - HP compares to 5 tons cargo. These rates are over freight at KCr1...
10000-3869= Cr6131 —— 122.6% over freight Cr1226.2/Td
10000-3282= Cr6718 —— 134.4% over freight Cr1348.6/Td

(Cutting the LS expenses in half, as MGT did, would help a good bit.)

 

[Carlobrand]

Sorry, I oversimplified.

 

[DangerousThing]

As to the economics - they will certainly work for the corporate lines. Do the math without financing costs (as someone also mentioned). Not to mention, one would expect reduced fees and fuel costs.

The problem with doing the finances without finance cost is a big mistake that people make in estimating profits.

For a Megacorp to buy a ship, one of the costs of buying it is the interest the money would earn if they had put it into a safe investment. In other words they are handling their own financing.

I don't know what s safe investment is in the 3I. The only solid investment I know of in canon is the TAS. One passage every two months? That's more than most pensions. It's too high an investment value unless they are highly subsidized. On the other hand, knowing where many of the top ex-servicemen are traveling is probably useful intelligence and worth the cost to many organizations.

 

[BytePro]

The problem with doing the finances without finance cost is a big mistake that people make in estimating profits.

For a Megacorp to buy a ship, one of the costs of buying it is the interest the money would earn if they had put it into a safe investment. In other words they are handling their own financing.

No mistake.

They are still making more than if they merely collected interest off their monies - and if the Megacorp is not an investment company, then 'safe investing' isn't really their instrument for making profit.

By self-financing, they are avoiding interest payments, possibly providing themselves with tax writeoffs, and may even be able to leverage connections for participation in the economy of the shipyard systems. They can also borrow against the asset for obtaining lower rate 'option to buy' loans for filling holds with speculative cargo.

Buying ships and interstellar trading would surely involve risks - and the profits will relate to such for these large players who can afford to play the game.

 

[aramis]

TAS is a MCr1 investment for KCr65 per annum return. A 6.5% ROI per annum. For the 1970's, when Traveller was written, that's a typical bank return for long term savings and investment accounts.

Also note that the membership is non-transferrable, non-refundable, and the TAS is centuries old. It's cash-paying-dividend assets probably amount to a fund of 50-60MCr per member alive, plus all the facilities.

 

[Amber Chancer]

Ah - but just think how much wealthier would be the "Budget TAS" (interstellar youth hostels, anyone??)

Membership a snip at Cr100,000 and EVERY SINGLE MONTH you get one low passage.

However, these tickets are not transferrable and cannot be converted into cash in any way - they can ONLY be used by the member themsevles.

 

[BytePro]

Clarification...
Tour the universe, for a paltry sum of Cr100,000 receive an upfront free low passage and EVERY SINGLE MONTH you survive a low passage get one low passage. :devil:

 

[Timerover51]

Clarification...
Tour the universe, for a paltry sum of Cr100,000 receive an upfront free low passage and EVERY SINGLE MONTH you survive a low passage get one low passage. :devil:

I have always had problems with the survival rate for low berth passengers. I am leaning to using four 10-sided die for check for survival, and if then roll "0" on all four die, a 1 in 10,000 chance, then they do not make it.

Would you care to speculate on the investigations and paperwork involved in explaining a dead passenger? I was on a cruise ship once where a passenger died, and the ship was tied up in port until the coroner gave an initial cause of death as a heart attack. That was after he checked with the guy's physician back home and took a look at the meds he was taking.

 

[mike wightman]

Two things.

The low berth death rule is a result of the low berth and low lottery being a direct rip off from the Dumarest novels. In the novels the low berth are meant for animal transport, but those who are desperate enough sometimes chance it.

Secondly the Imperium obviously doesn't give two hoots about the sanctity of life. if you wish to take the chance with a low berth that's your look out

Third...

There must be low berth technology that does't require a surcival roll otherwise the frozen watch system wouldn't work...

mind you point two may apply to this

 

[BytePro]

Low berths were for emergencies IMTU.