Design a cheap Scout Car

[sabredog]

The thread I started on the FAC-6 Light Scout Car got me thinking that it would be fun to see what we all can come up with (if we don't already have one) for a cheap, low-tech scout utility vehicle as an alternative to the ubiquitous air/raft.

How often has it happened to Scout Shortstraw that he is making his escape from the ferocious Whatsit tribe-things on planet Thatplace III and had one of them put a spear through his air/raft models and bring him down to near-certain doom? Not often enough, I'm sure, but once is enough!

Wouldn't it be better if a Scout had a small, lightly armored vehicle that is easily repaired with a simple wrench, hammer, and swear words? That he can can lose a wheel or two and keep going at good speed? That it can quickly and easily have its power supply modified, replaced, or even completely rebuilt to local standards (like steam, or that small, really fast animal that ran on a treadmill on WhyRWeHere II)?

Of course it would!!

And what better way to amuse and frustrate players than to provide them with a high tech zippy scoutship capable to traversing the stars but equipped with a cranky, battered compact space-pickup truck with a light machine gun spot welded to the roof? Besides, a Scout's life should be an endless stream of projects requiring him to improvise, improvise, and swear a lot, or he will just get bored and listless on those long trips to near-certain insanity and death.

Make a Scout's life an adventurous one - design him a light scout car today!



Hokay - design a small vehicle that is low tech and easy to maintain in nearly any conditions but insidious and corrosive atmospheres (I guess tracked vehicles would work in those atmospheres, though so using those would be OK). You can use Striker, Fire, Fusion & Steel (if you make your Sanity roll), or another official design system compatible with Classic Traveller. A nifty one was in an edition of Space Gamer a long time ago and that would work, too.

The parameters:

It has to fit in the same volume as an air/raft. Figuring some sort of cradle or other parking/loading system so it doesn't roll around on the ship and out the door in Jump space, it has to fit within: 6.25M long X 2.25M wide X 2.8M tall

No Fusion plant (but it can use one if added later) for its power supply.

No anti-grav propulsion.

Wheels are preferred, but tracks OK if it is to be used in corrosive or insidious atmospheres (good luck with that, though).

Speaking of hostile environments, it should provide some level of protection for the crew even if only because they can button up inside and turn on the overpressure system. It shouldn't be just "Suit Safe" for the crew - they have to get out of those suits sometime.

It should have some cargo space, but so long as the drive system can keep it moving the cargo can be strapped to the roof. Just make sure to include that weight involved in the description with any changes to the vehicle's performance.

It has to carry up to 4 crew.


That's it! Keep it cheap and versatile....but, uh, good (enough?) so we can make sure no more scouts die because they loose a grav module!

 

[sabredog]

BTW: In case anyone wants or needs the Space Gamer rules from issue 44 that I mentioned above here is the link to my online Box with the .pdf in it. You can download it from there.

https://app.box.com/s/3y2lvn1c3au3p1q7lxjc7bqiy26x8ipm


They are really nice little rules for armored vehicle design and combat, and I've used them forever when I wanted something lighter and faster than Striker.

 

[kilemall]

Do you want it by the rules you posted, or ok to use some of the CE/MgT vehicle rules?

 

[Enoki]

Another version would be something like the original 60's Lost in Space Chariot.



Consider it made with say something like 15 to 25mm thick Lexan which would make it reasonably bullet proof. Add ballistic cloth curtains that double for privacy. The track-wheel suspension is interchangeable. It can run on tracks or wheels like a Christie tank. It has room for a small turret if you want one, a cargo rack on top, seats 4 to 6 and has room for cargo inside. The roomy passenger compartment allows suits to be worn or changed into or out of.

Added bonus, it has great visibility from the vehicle-- something I would think a scout party would want.

As long as you're good with say a about a 40 kph top speed at most it could traverse most terrain.

 

[Timerover51]

Make a Scout's life an adventurous one - design him a light scout car today!

Hokay - design a small vehicle that is low tech and easy to maintain in nearly any conditions but insidious and corrosive atmospheres (I guess tracked vehicles would work in those atmospheres, though so using those would be OK). You can use Striker, Fire, Fusion & Steel (if you make your Sanity roll), or another official design system compatible with Classic Traveller. A nifty one was in an edition of Space Gamer a long time ago and that would work, too.

A vehicle built to operate in insidious or corrosive atmospheres, especially corrosive, is not going to be cheap, as it will require corrosion-resistant construction materials.

The parameters:

It has to fit in the same volume as an air/raft. Figuring some sort of cradle or other parking/loading system so it doesn't roll around on the ship and out the door in Jump space, it has to fit within: 6.25M long X 2.25M wide X 2.8M tall

Those are much larger than the dimensions of the World War 2 Jeep and the amphibious Jeep, and for that matter, the World War 2 3/4 ton truck.

No Fusion plant (but it can use one if added later) for its power supply.

To power a vehicle in an insidious or corrosive atmosphere, if you eliminate fusion power or H. Beam Piper's nuclear-electric power units, you are going to have to use batteries and an electrical propulsion system. Those are not going to be cheap. This adds to the cost of the construction materials, along with air-tight sealing of the propulsion unit. If using an internal-combustion engine power plant and conventional power train, you are not going to simply dump a fusion plant into the vehicle. i assume that a fusion plant is going to power a vehicle through an electric drive train.

No anti-grav propulsion.

Wheels are preferred, but tracks OK if it is to be used in corrosive or insidious atmospheres (good luck with that, though).

First, track systems are not going to be cheap. Second, unless you make the entire track suspension system out of corrosion-resistant materials, you are going to have problems with the track unit in short order.

Speaking of hostile environments, it should provide some level of protection for the crew even if only because they can button up inside and turn on the overpressure system. It shouldn't be just "Suit Safe" for the crew - they have to get out of those suits sometime.

If you have the vehicle operate in insidious or corrosive atmosphere requirement, you are going to have to add an air-lock to the vehicle, along with oxygen tanks and CO2 filters for the crew. Adding an overpressure system again adds to the cost. By definition, insidious or corrosive atmospheres are not going to contain oxygen, which is far too reactive to be retained in such an atmosphere. This is no longer a simply, cheap vehicle, but a highly sophisticated one that is going to be expensive.

It should have some cargo space, but so long as the drive system can keep it moving the cargo can be strapped to the roof. Just make sure to include that weight involved in the description with any changes to the vehicle's performance.

You are not going to carry any large amount of cargo on the roof and expect to operate over rough terrain or even moderately rough terrain, as you are going to raise the center of gravity of the vehicle and increase the likelihood of turning it over.

It has to carry up to 4 crew.

That's it! Keep it cheap and versatile....but, uh, good (enough?) so we can make sure no more scouts die because they loose a grav module!

The crew is the least of the problem for design. However, you can have a cheap and versatile vehicle such as a Jeep, which is not going to go that far in keeping Scouts alive, or you can have a vehicle about as expensive as an air raft, which might not keep Scouts alive a whole lot better.

Now, these are comments based on the Real World, but then, this is supposed to be a low-tech vehicle. World War 2 would be Tech Level 5. If you add armor to this, the cost is going to go up some more. The same holds true for armament.

 

[Enoki]

Your objections, Timeover, actually make the Chariot design more practical.

Consider, it is made from something like a higher quality Lexan for the body. This would be impervious to most corrosive and insidious atmospheres that didn't involve high heat. .5" to 1" sheets are strong enough to take a 250 psi + overpressure easily.

The wheel-track design allows it to operate on most surfaces from snow to sand, to a hard surface road (remove the tracks). In this case, the tracks are relatively cheap. They use wire rope and molded rubber to some metal parts. An alternate design uses the rubber band track with added metal cleats for better traction.
A pair run a couple of grand today.
The wheels are commercially available passenger car sized ones with rubber tires. Sure, you have more of them, but those are relatively cheap individually and readily available.
For corrosive or insidious atmospheres simply choose materials that won't be effected. Switch the grade and type of rubber used, or switch to another material with similar properties that is chemically resistant to the atmosphere.

I see little or no need for high speed. If you are going further than say 10 or 20 miles from the ship, move the ship. If the environment is urban and developed, rent a vehicle appropriate to those conditions rather than use the one in the ship. That would make you less conspicuous as "tourists."

There's clearly enough room in that cabin to add an air lock if you need one.

As an alternative to batteries, since things nuclear are out, you might use a hybrid electric with a Air Independent engine like some diesel submarines use. The other would be a hydrogen fuel cell.

The design has the added advantage of using a commercially available chassis and suspension. That reduces cost and makes parts easier to find. Right now, I could get the chassis for one of those for anywhere from about $10,000 to $40,000 used.
I would assume that it'd be cheaper if the design were being produced in quantity.

For weapons, you could mount a light one in a small turret, or add ball mounts in the side panels as required.

If you limit cargo to around one ton or less and four passengers, it would work relatively well. Sealed properly you might even have an amphibious option with it. Even if it floated with the passenger compartment half submerged, it could still work as one in calm water.

http://www.drivingenthusiast.net/se...-space-chariot-last-seen-intact-40-years-ago/

Even the 60's version is at least practical as an off-road vehicle in Earth-like conditions.

 

[kilemall]

Mongoose had an example of the vehicle build that would suit most of your criteria, the Honey Badger.

www.mongoosepublishing.com%2fpdf%2fvhbpreview.pdf/

It's an example of a build and players gone wild with vehicle build sequences, but strip out the vehicle jump, crane and ejection seat features and you have a pretty good 4-ton adventuring vehicle for around Cr20000.

The environmental sealing options are there too but more like Timerover's criteria, space consumption and expensive.

 

[whartung]

Those are much larger than the dimensions of the World War 2 Jeep and the amphibious Jeep, and for that matter, the World War 2 3/4 ton truck.

I assumed that the definition of a Scout Vehicle in this context was a Vehicle used by Scouts (as in the Imperial Scout Service) rather than a vehicle used by a Scout as in the military sense of a small party reconnoitering for a battalion.

Those requirements are far different.

 

[kilemall]

I assumed that the definition of a Scout Vehicle in this context was a Vehicle used by Scouts (as in the Imperial Scout Service) rather than a vehicle used by a Scout as in the military sense of a small party reconnoitering for a battalion.

Those requirements are far different.

I dunno about that- the jeep was originally designed to be THE WWII US Army scouting vehicle. Perhaps not wise, but that's what it did.

 

[sabredog]

Do you want it by the rules you posted, or ok to use some of the CE/MgT vehicle rules?

Use any rules for Traveller. It's just for fun.

 

[Timerover51]

I assumed that the definition of a Scout Vehicle in this context was a Vehicle used by Scouts (as in the Imperial Scout Service) rather than a vehicle used by a Scout as in the military sense of a small party reconnoitering for a battalion.

Those requirements are far different.

I was more using those vehicles as examples that the given dimensions were quite generous.

 

[sabredog]

The dimensions I'm using are the same used to store and air/raft on a ship.

The 4dton volume of an air/raft is 6M longX 3M wide X 3M tall. One Dton being 3 X 1.5 X 3meters.

So feel free to make something smaller, I just said it has to fit within that space since it is substituting for an air/raft. Or maybe replacing the lost air/raft.

As for tracked suspensions: you can have those since they'd be required on corrosive and insidious atmospheres, but otherwise they are realistically a pain to maintain. Throw a track or break a pin and it's some POA work involved. And once in a while you need to get out and knock the pins from the outside to make sure the tracks don't strecth and are thrown...the inner sides of the pins are knocked in by the "pin knocker" that's attached to the rear of the drive system - either by the idler or drive sprocket depending on your design. But you have to get out an knock 'em in yourself with the sledge hammer strapped to the vehicle you may notice in nearly every photo of something with tracks.

HOWEVER......tracks don't always have to be plates and links held with pins. Even in WWII the US halftracks used vulcanized rubber one-piece giant rubber band tracks that worked just dandy. A lot of tracked light vehicles around the world used them after the war, though metal ones are still the most durable and versatile. A lot of light tracked farm and construction vehicles use rubber tracks, sometimes with embedded cleats for mud and rocky ground.

Soooooo...don't discount tracks entirely. But wheels are the easiest to maintain and are cheapest.

Hovercraft are often the forgotten stepchildren in Traveller what with the magic gravitics of the game, but that might be an option, too. Though you obviously couldn't use one in thinner atmospheres and rough terrain would be dicey.

 

[martletsquire]

So, a White Scout Car, armored to rifle level ammo, with an armored engine, armored window shutters, 4 wheel drive, and a large box on the back for mounting all sorts of stuff, would be a viable candidate.

Or an M3 halftrack. Kinda like the White SC, but a little heftier, beefier, with tracks!

Both of them would fit the specifications, and are moderately low tech, 1930's style. Designed to be maintained by farmboys raised on fixing tractors.

There is a guy out there, some European, who designed a box truck. Not that type of box truck, more a crate truck. The crate is basically the body, the wheels are inside the crate, to be added during the uncrating of the crate. Designed around a tractor/low cost truck engine, it is designed for the operator to bolt on armor panels, or racks, or, well, another crate (think pickup camper.)

Then again, the basic Ford F100 manual transmission pickup truck would also fill the bill. Or the standard Toyota pickup, used by so many 3rd and 4th world 'technicals' for everything from ambulance to assault vehicle.

Lots of real-world examples.

And, just like in real-world examples, people who customize and 'extreme' duty their vehicles either have to have a machine shop with them for repairs or have lots of credits to hire mechanics, while the base vehicle can be repaired with baling wire and rigger's tape.

Way back when, one of my scouts basically had a Willy's pickup, with a multi-fuel engine as the only concession to the varying capabilities on planets. Not much use in non-atmo environments, but elsewhere was surprisingly useful.

 

[whartung]

I dunno about that- the jeep was originally designed to be THE WWII US Army scouting vehicle. Perhaps not wise, but that's what it did.

Well I was considering a "Vehicle for the Scout Service" to be an extended stay expeditionary kind of vehicle. Something that you'd use to chart and explore a larger area over a period of weeks, vs simply a small, rugged, all terrain vehicle for less-than-day trips from an established base.

You can see a ship deploying a group of 2-3 vehicles to perform ground survey, flora/fauna cataloging, watershed analysis, etc. Things not really well done from a Scout Ship itself.

 

[sabredog]

Well I was considering a "Vehicle for the Scout Service" to be an extended stay expeditionary kind of vehicle. Something that you'd use to chart and explore a larger area over a period of weeks, vs simply a small, rugged, all terrain vehicle for less-than-day trips from an established base.

You can see a ship deploying a group of 2-3 vehicles to perform ground survey, flora/fauna cataloging, watershed analysis, etc. Things not really well done from a Scout Ship itself.

That's how I figure it should be done, too. The one I posted to my other thread has a "turret" - really, cupola (also covered in Striker) that comes loaded with scientific instruments and recording gear. The thing is quiet and small enough to motor around and allow the Scouts in it to observe and study the ground level planet they are on.

Any scout vehicle, IMHO, should be as multipurpose as possible yet still have designed into it the Scout mission. In my game's mythology it is called First Mission. Explore, study, document, report (ESDR, or "Esther" as it ended up as). In wartime Scouts are formed into Pathfinder units to be seconded to my Imperial Marine Recon Sections, but 99% of what they do otherwise is just go off for a long time to explore and map. It is also administered by a separate agency so it doesn't have the administratively top heavy structure it does in the Imperium universe.


So any vehicle that supports that sort of Scout mission parameters is perfect. And it also serves the game-wise goal of getting the players out of their ship and exploring on the ground where you can have them experience the meticulous detail you have built into the world they are on.

How often have we had a players so skittish to get out of their ship just content to scan the place as low orbit and then Jump out to the next world? I've found that by giving them a small vehicle that is lightly armored (really the "armor is just a quality of the material) and multipurpose gets them over that skittishness. And they are happy motoring around exploring that way.

 

[whartung]

In my game's mythology it is called First Mission. Explore, study, document, report (ESDR, or "Esther" as it ended up as).

We have a routine process in our data center that does daily housekeeping (deleting old files and what not). This morphed in to being a Janitor, and now whenever we talk about it, we just refer to it as "Janet".

How often have we had a players so skittish to get out of their ship just content to scan the place as low orbit and then Jump out to the next world? I've found that by giving them a small vehicle that is lightly armored (really the "armor is just a quality of the material) and multipurpose gets them over that skittishness. And they are happy motoring around exploring that way.

Just need enough armor to thwart the teeth of the local fauna, ideally, vs so much as being designed for actual combat.

 

[Timerover51]

Just need enough armor to thwart the teeth of the local fauna, ideally, vs so much as being designed for actual combat.

The problem is how do you know how much armor it will take to thwart the teeth of the local fauna on a new planet? Some of them could spit acidic saliva like the Chamax, or poison like some snakes on Earth. Then you have the charge of a near-sighted rhino-equivalent, or the chomp of a big hippo-equivalent.

As soon as you start talking armor, scout cars are no longer cheap.

 

[whartung]

The problem is how do you know how much armor it will take to thwart the teeth of the local fauna on a new planet? Some of them could spit acidic saliva like the Chamax, or poison like some snakes on Earth. Then you have the charge of a near-sighted rhino-equivalent, or the chomp of a big hippo-equivalent.

As soon as you start talking armor, scout cars are no longer cheap.

But that doesn't mean you can't take reasonable measure.

The basic steel body of a modern car or truck will more than not frustrate pretty much anything on earth at the moment. Yea, a charging rhino my stick a horn through a door, but it's unlikely. Yea, it may dent the door, but that's a different problem entirely. A charging elephant isn't going to defeat the vehicle as much as push it around, which could potentially damage the drive train.

Obviously, if they step on it, it's a different problem -- but how likely is that really?

And, yes, I'm sure we've all see pictures of bears opening up cars by peeling open doors (specially pulling down window frames).

So, there's a distinction between impenetrable, and effective.

Constrast a typical car from, say, a convertible Miata. I don't think think any one wants to be in that vehicle against an angry bear, as the "roof armor" isn't particularly effective.

If you're on a planet with T-Rexes -- it's a different story, but thankfully you have that auto cannon in the turret mount.

 

[aramis]

Rhinos, elephants, and hippos can overturn cars and pickups. Polar and grizzly bears have been known to break windows to get to food; they also can overturn cars.

Most apes can operate doors and throw rocks; chimps have been observed making and using spears for hunting.

Teeth are far from the most important weapon for all of those.

a Chimp's bite is only slightly more dangerous than a human's; it's not their weapon of choice. Their weapon of choice varies. Against members of their own troop, fists. Against prey, spears and clubs. Against other troops of chimps, sticks and stones. Against stupid West African soldiers, rifles†.

† note that this is a bad bit of humor based upon what is widely thought to be faked footage...

 

[whartung]

Rhinos, elephants, and hippos can overturn cars and pickups. Polar and grizzly bears have been known to break windows to get to food; they also can overturn cars.

Bears are smart. We had one open up our "locked" cooler one night, and kindly distribute the contents for, well, everyone.

I've seen photo of bears peeling car windows open like a can of sardines.

And, of course, one of my favorite tragic humor scenes was from (I think) one of those "Faces of Death" videos from long ago. Lady feeding a bear some bread out of a window, husband/boy friend gets out of the car to get a better picture. Lady says "Honey, I'm out of bread!" Next we have video of pour soul being dragged in to the brush by aforementioned bear.

Famous last words.

Most apes can operate doors and throw rocks; chimps have been observed making and using spears for hunting.

Teeth are far from the most important weapon for all of those.

a Chimp's bite is only slightly more dangerous than a human's; it's not their weapon of choice. Their weapon of choice varies. Against members of their own troop, fists. Against prey, spears and clubs. Against other troops of chimps, sticks and stones. Against stupid West African soldiers, rifles†.

† note that this is a bad bit of humor based upon what is widely thought to be faked footage...

If the chimps would like to take up anti-poaching duties, I'll be happy to sponsor rifles and ammunition for them.