CT Only: Destroyers and other escorts

[salochin999]

On the other hand, the pre-1975 American system was closer to the historical conventions, where a frigate was a medium sized warship bigger than the "unrated" brigs and sloops, and smaller than (line of) battleships. so it really depends on which terminology you wish to follow.

So perhaps the functional classification would more accurately be

escort, cruiser, battleship

where
- frigate is defined as the smallest cruiser
and
- escort could mean small (corvette) to large (destroyer)

then the relative size sequence could vary over time depending on need.

 

[mike wightman]

Actually the munchkin class escort is built at 1999t - you get the -1DM to be hit and you can mount a bay and nine turrets of assorted weaponry...

If you design ships and play High Guard you will find out why you need armoured ships smaller than spinal carriers - they are much cheaper and can be used to stand in the line of battle while your [expensive] spine carriers are held in reserve.

One of the key things to winning a HG battle is to choose the moment to deploy your spinal ships to the line of battle carefully.

 

[mike wightman]

Cruiser was originally a mission designation rather than a ship class during the age of sail and into the ironclad era.

In the modern era ship classes have been redesignated to get money from the government to build them or to get around treaty obligations.

 

[McPerth]

Let's imagine a situation (a worst case scenario):

A BatDron identical to the 154^th (as described in SMC) jumps to another system near a GG. Unknown to them, an identical hostile squadron is stationed there, and the jump destination is about 2 hours (6 turns) away from the hostile squadron positon. The defenders are at alert but not in General Quarters.

The attacker's ships arrive at 2 hours interval (along 14 hours).

In the first case, the Lurenti is the first one to arrive. It is detected and detects the enemy. The Nolikian are detached as the enemy closes and the Lurenti flees a safe distance, and a wild combat among the opposing Nolikians results.The outcome will depend on crew quality and luck, as the Nolikians fight each other on equal terms, while the defending Sloans fire their missiles (probably to little effect, if any) and attacking Sloans come appearing (and probably being obliterated before being combat ready, unless the Nolikian have already killed the enemy ones).

In the second case, a Sloan appears first. The enemy detects it and now knows that enemy is coming and where will it appear (as we can asume the whole squadron jumps to the same point, on those distances accounting). Defending Nolikians, Sloans and fighters close for a kill. As attacking Sloans come arriving they are being destroyed without even knowing what hit them...

When the Lurenti appears (regardless how many Sloans have already arrived), the deffenders are ready and in position, with swarms of fighters, the Sloans and the Nolikians ready to fire at the Lurenti as it tries to detach its Nolikians (being config 7 it will take just a turn) and launch its fighters.

With an agility of 1, the +2 to be hit because of size and no armor, the Lurenti is quite likely to take serious damage, while the attacking Nolikians can be fired by the defender's meson guns even as they detach, before being ready to fight back...

See that in the first case the escorts are irrelevant but the attacker has a chance (about 50%) of victory, while in the second case they are just an alert to the defenders, depriving the attacker of any chance... :CoW:

Do you still want your escorts near?

 

[CliffBates]

I think we have to go back to basics in defining the roles for various combatant ships;

Corvette: A fast-moving small warship, intended to defend against and destroy small attack craft.
Destroyer: A ship designed to escort other ships, and defend against and destroy smaller ships.
Frigate: Smallest of the capital ships, designed to deliver a punch against large ships, but capable against smaller ship and craft.
Cruiser: Mid sized capital warship. Intended as a stand-alone ship capable against a wide range of threats.
Battleship. The largest of the capital ships, and very capable in destroying pretty-much anything it sets its sight upon.
Carrier: Larger than capital ships, it's strength lies in it's offensive small craft, such as fighters, which can deliver a much-needed stand-off punch at longer ranges.
Dreadnought: A combination of a Battleship and carrier, rolled into one. Quite probably the most deadly of all warships.

How do those definitions stand?

I would down grade the carrier, move it between Cruiser and Battleship.

Also there need to differentiate between types of Cruisers: Light, Escort, Strike, Heavy and Battle,

Light are less armored and faster than most Cruisers.

Escort Cruisers are Large Escorts ships offering cover fire taking missiles and small craft and smaller ships that attacking the larger ships... letting them go after the main target.

Strike Cruisers a midsized Cruiser offer either long J thus giving great raiding potential. (The A High Lightning class with its J5 range when it was new fits this type... but it got old fast with its main being just PA).

Assault Cruiser--is a mid size cruiser that specializes with planetary attacks and supporting such an invasion.

Heavy Cruiser--these are 100k and less. They might be old BB of that size but lack fire power of current up to date ships. They might be smaller and cheaper heavies that have a punch, but not as much as a BB. The key here is firepower.

Battle Cruisers are in fact smaller sized battleships... but designed for that purpose rather then an old BB used for that role.

 

[Condottiere]

Perhaps, what's needed is a BattleStar.

 

[McPerth]

Actually the munchkin class escort is built at 1999t - you get the -1DM to be hit and you can mount a bay and nine turrets of assorted weaponry...

And that's what I consider chating. I'll never, as a referee, give those ships the -1 if I don't give it to the 2000 dton ships. I know the threshold must be put somwhere, but when I see this chating intent, I don't accept it. Of course, YMMV.

If you design ships and play High Guard you will find out why you need armoured ships smaller than spinal carriers - they are much cheaper and can be used to stand in the line of battle while your [expensive] spine carriers are held in reserve.

One of the key things to winning a HG battle is to choose the moment to deploy your spinal ships to the line of battle carefully.

This may be true in the artificial environment of a TCS squadron, but not so sure when ships must maneuver along several systems (that's why I intended to leave hamsters and similars out of this discussion). Again, YMMV, and you can even try to convince me that they will also be useful in such an environement.

 

[McPerth]

Also there need to differentiate between types of Cruisers: Light, Escort, Strike, Heavy and Battle,

<snip>

Battle Cruisers are in fact smaller sized battleships... but designed for that purpose rather then an old BB used for that role.

Historically, the Battlecruisers were Cruisers in speed and armor and Battleships in weaponry (the Gneissnau and Scharhorst, while being traditionally refered as Battlecruisers were in fact fast undergunned Battleships, their undergunning being an anomaly coming as result of the Treaty of Versailles, but their armor being in Battleship range).

So, in fact, under this definition, all the Cruisers in traveller would enter into the Battlecruiser definition: armed as a Battleship (spinal mount) but with lighter defenses (screens/seccondaries/armor).

 

[Redcap]

Wow, a right :CoW: indeed

So, what we have are completely unset definitions for the size of craft, where it now appears that it's the mission that's the key to it all, not the actual size class.

Or have I got this base-over-apex?

 

[Condottiere]

Probably depends on doctrine, the Imperium taking a more conservative take on roles.

Apparently during the War of Imperium Aggression, Solomani have a looser definition of light cruisers, ranging between eight to fifteen thousand tonnes, with or without a spinal mount.

They seem to act more as flotilla leaders when attached to a battle or cruiser squadron, probably fulfill the roles of colonial cruiser, commerce protection and raider.

 

[salochin999]

Cruiser was originally a mission designation rather than a ship class during the age of sail and into the ironclad era.

In the modern era ship classes have been redesignated to get money from the government to build them or to get around treaty obligations.

That's what I was thinking.

If the game era is one where your capital ships need escorts then the ship labeling might shift to where it mostly meant the relative size of different escorts e.g.

corvette, (frigate), destroyer, (frigate), cruiser, battleship

whereas if the capital ships don't need escorts the labeling might bend back towards function
- ships of the line (concentrated battle fleet)
- cruisers (detached operations)(various sizes)

I don't know which is best for Traveller HG but I think It might be worth keeping both meanings in mind.

 

[mike wightman]

And that's what I consider chating. I'll never, as a referee, give those ships the -1 if I don't give it to the 2000 dton ships. I know the threshold must be put somwhere, but when I see this chating intent, I don't accept it. Of course, YMMV.

What you do IYTU is up to you, but for TCS tournament play or HG rules as written then those are the breakpoints and those are the rules.

This may be true in the artificial environment of a TCS squadron, but not so sure when ships must maneuver along several systems (that's why I intended to leave hamsters and similars out of this discussion). Again, YMMV, and you can even try to convince me that they will also be useful in such an environement.

It's not TCS, those are the rules in HG.

How you make real world sense of such an abstract system is tricky to say the least.

The escort/destroyer class is a threat to capital ships not because it can hurt them, it is because it can degrade their spinal making them more vulnerable when you bring your big guns out, and because they are tough to take out with anything but a spinal. They are also a threat because in order to brek through them you have to risk your big guns - escort vs escort is a case study in tedium.

Escort/destroyer class ships in the setting also have a big role to play in:

patrolling from system to system

training new crew in ship operation and ship/fleet tactics.

 

[CliffBates]

Wow, a right :CoW: indeed

So, what we have are completely unset definitions for the size of craft, where it now appears that it's the mission that's the key to it all, not the actual size class.

Or have I got this base-over-apex?

Yes its mission.

 

[McPerth]

What you do IYTU is up to you, but for TCS tournament play or HG rules as written then those are the breakpoints and those are the rules.

You're right this is the letter of the rules, but I have serious doubts for it to be the spirit of them.

It's not TCS, those are the rules in HG.

How you make real world sense of such an abstract system is tricky to say the least.

The escort/destroyer class is a threat to capital ships not because it can hurt them, it is because it can degrade their spinal making them more vulnerable when you bring your big guns out, and because they are tough to take out with anything but a spinal. They are also a threat because in order to brek through them you have to risk your big guns - escort vs escort is a case study in tedium.

Again I understand this to be true in single engagment matches, but would it work equally in a campaign?

If in this single engagement you lose several of your escorts while only damaging the enemy Capital ships, his fleet will be intact in just a few weeks of repairs, while you'll need years to replace it.

Of course, here we will enter in when a ship should be considered beyond repair, because HG lacks rules the ship destruction (aside the rare ship vaporized critical), only degrading them to the point they are no longer battle worthy, but they keep able to be repaired in (relatively) sort time (becoming hulks for the holder of the "battlefield" to take for repairs).

EDIT:And off course, the eficacy of those ships with a single missile battery thatwear off the capital ships due to statistical rolls (among so many shoots, some will go through and do some damage) are based in one of the (IMHO) HG main flaws: lack of rules for ammunition. The ships can keep firing until eternity. END EDIT

Escort/destroyer class ships in the setting also have a big role to play in:

patrolling from system to system

training new crew in ship operation and ship/fleet tactics.

Agreed, but I see ships over 2000 dtons (and probably over 1000 dtons) as an overkill for this.

Again YMMV...

 

[CliffBates]

Let's imagine a situation (a worst case scenario):

A BatDron identical to the 154^th (as described in SMC) jumps to another system near a GG. Unknown to them, an identical hostile squadron is stationed there, and the jump destination is about 2 hours (6 turns) away from the hostile squadron positon. The defenders are at alert but not in General Quarters.

The attacker's ships arrive at 2 hours interval (along 14 hours).

In the first case, the Lurenti is the first one to arrive. It is detected and detects the enemy. The Nolikian are detached as the enemy closes and the Lurenti flees a safe distance, and a wild combat among the opposing Nolikians results.The outcome will depend on crew quality and luck, as the Nolikians fight each other on equal terms, while the defending Sloans fire their missiles (probably to little effect, if any) and attacking Sloans come appearing (and probably being obliterated before being combat readyunles the Nolikian have already killed the enemy ones).

In the second case, a Sloan appears first. The enemy detects it and now knows that enemy is coming and where will it appear (as we can asume the whole squadron jumps to the same point, on those distances accounting). Defending Nolikians, Sloans and fighters close for a kill. As attacking Sloans come arriving they are being destroyed without even knowing what hit them...

When the Lurenti appears (regardless how many Sloans have already arrived), the deffenders are ready and in position, with swarms of fighters, the Sloans and the Nolikians ready to fire at the Lurenti as it tries to detach its Nolikians (being config 7 it wil ltake just a turn) and launch its fighters.

With an agility of 1, the +2 to be hit because of size and no armor, the Lurenti is quite likely to take serious damage, while the attacking Nolikians can be fired by the defender's meson guns even as they detach, before being ready to fight back...

See that in the first case the escorts are irrelevant but the attacker has a chance (about 50%) of victory, while in the second case they are just an alert to the defenders, depriving the attacker of any chance... :CoW:

Do you still want your escorts near?

To send a handful of Sloans against a Battle Rider is just madness. A Battle Rider is a Cap Ship and needs to be engaged by similar capital ships. Now 40 squ of 10 attack fighters with missiles could be sent to hit a Squ of Riders... Their job is to degrade their weapons and engines.

What the job of the Sloan is not out front but to protect the capital ships and cruisers from such attacks of fighters/attack craft. 4-6 Sloans or other class Escort per Cap/Cru and they often surround to the sides and behind.

Now if you have one Cruisers lacking escorts, why not send a pack of 20 Sloans? each Sloan as 2 factor 9 missile bats, 3 factor 9 laser bats... each targeting the Cruiser with 40 factor 9 nukes missile bats and 60 factor 9 laser bat attack.... yes the Sloans will get hurt by the big ship, but they will hurt him as well. But again this is not what the Sloan was built to do. They were to give covering fire targeting the smaller ships/craft attacking to degrade a larger ship's capacities.

 

[McPerth]

To send a handful of Sloans against a Battle Rider is just madness. A Battle Rider is a Cap Ship and needs to be engaged by similar capital ships. Now 40 squ of 10 attack fighters with missiles could be sent to hit a Squ of Riders... Their job is to degrade their weapons and engines.

There is no Sloan sent against a Battle Rider, is just the imprevisibleness of jump arrival that puts it against several Battle Riders in the example.

In the example each side had 200 fighters (the Lurenti complement). Assuming they are the ones shown in SMC, they have each a factor 2 missile and a factor 2 laser (not specified if pulse or beam). See that neither of them can damage the BR (nukes will be stopped by the dampers and lasers by the armor).

See that for fighters being able to damage such a battlecruiser they must be able to be used as single battery in triple nuke misile turrets and have each of them a model 9 computer (at a cost of MCr 140 each). At lower TLs this computer cost may be lower, but I already said I was talking about the higher end of tecnology, as in lower TLs, due to lower armor and computer costs, fighters are more effective, and so escorts more needed.

And with that, each such battery (at a cost of MCr 1400 only in computers) will hit on a 8+ (2+, -6 due to agility, +1 due to size), penetrate dampers (once active defenses, so sandcasters, beams and repulsor have been overcome) on a 10+, and then will somewhat wear down the ship on a 9- in damage.

Meanwhile, the BRs own weaponry will fire, its 12 missile bays hitting on a 10+ (2+, -6 for agility, -2 for size), but each hit will be one fighter down (due to criticals), and so a squadron reduced to 8 rated battery...

What the job of the Sloan is not out front but to protect the capital ships and cruisers from such attacks of fighters/attack craft. 4-6 Sloans or other class Escort per Cap/Cru and they often surround to the sides and behind.

How many fighters may the Sloans stop for the same reasons, if they can really be a threat?

Now if you have one Cruisers lacking escorts, why not send a pack of 20 Sloans? each Sloan as 2 factor 9 missile bats, 3 factor 9 laser bats... each targeting the Cruiser with 40 factor 9 nukes missile bats and 60 factor 9 laser bat attack.... yes the Sloans will get hurt by the big ship, but they will hurt him as well. But again this is not what the Sloan was built to do. They were to give covering fire targeting the smaller ships/craft attacking to degrade a larger ship's capacities.

Again, in campaign game it's not likely you find a cruiser alone (unless again arriving after jump due to the intrinsic lack of coordination of arrivals), as you are to have the 20 Sloans toguether, but even in that case, again, you're likely to lose some Sloans and have the cruiser fleeing with damage, just to be repaired while your escorts have to be rebuilt.

 

[mike wightman]

Suppose, for instance, that a fleet were to jump into a system
with its black globes on and its velocity set upon a predetermined course. It could
drift unseen past any defending fleet and drop its screens at a pre-planned moment,
to bombard a planet or to engage enemy fleets by surprise. Further tactical possibilities
are left to the imaginations of the referee and players.

The fleet jumps as a unit.

The time variable is a metagame consideration, not an in-universe problem.

The fleet knows when to drop its BG to attack the target - this is not possible if the fleet is scattered or the time in jump is not a know parameter for the fleet.

 

[whartung]

In a fight among 6 5 kdton destroyers and a 30 kdton cruiser I would not be so sure about their capability to destroy it...

You have to try it and see, but also don't forget there's a difference between "destroyed" and "combat ineffective".

Both a 5K and 30K ships can be geared up to max armor, agility, computer and maximum number of turrets.

Statistically, the 5K ships cost more per ton than a 30K ship, that means for the same price, you can only show up with 5 5K ships for the price of a 30K ship, and leave money on the table. That gives the 30K ship a pretty solid advantage and it can simply bring more guns to the fight.

If you field 6 5K ships vs the 30K ship, then it's basically a wash. The 30K ship offers no real advantage, and the 5K ships aren't small enough to offer an advantage to them. The only real advantage of the 5K ships is they bring a lot more Fuel hits, so can soak up some more free hits, in the large, than the 30K ship. But I don't think the combat would last that long that it would come in to play.

Bring in 25-30 1K DDs vs the 30K ship, and it may very well be a different story. The 1K ships are small enough to get the -1 targeting DM, but large enough that they can't be critted by anything but a Spinal. That may be enough to turn the tide, even with a few less ships. 30 1K vs 1 30K is definitely in the 1K's favor.

 

[Redcap]

It's the swarm of hornets comparison; individually, a single hornet is literally a pain in the backside, en-mass, they can (not will: Can. There's a difference ) kill you.

I'd prefer to have a shedload of smaller warships against a bigger capital one; yes, you'd lose a few - maybe a lot - but, at the end of the battle, chances are good that the capital ship would either be combat ineffective, leaking like a sieve, burning end to end, or in a bazillion pieces.

That all said, it'd would be darn unusual to see a single capital ship all on it's todd in a warzone; it would be at least part of a flotilla of other ships acting as a screen to allow it to do what it's there for, as has been mentioned above by several.

However you cook it, war's a hot dish in a messy kitchen.

 

[mike wightman]

You have to try it and see, but also don't forget there's a difference between "destroyed" and "combat ineffective".

Both a 5K and 30K ships can be geared up to max armor, agility, computer and maximum number of turrets.

Statistically, the 5K ships cost more per ton than a 30K ship, that means for the same price, you can only show up with 5 5K ships for the price of a 30K ship, and leave money on the table. That gives the 30K ship a pretty solid advantage and it can simply bring more guns to the fight.

The 5kt ships are at +1 to hit the 30kt - if everything else is equal that this is quite an advantage.