Detached Duty Scouts in T5

[plop101]

I've been looking at the T5 stuff over at Downport. In the scout section, it says, IIRC, that scouts with 4 terms or more may become a detached duty scout and recieve a Type S scout IN LIEU OF MUSTERING OUT.

My question:
If the above is correct, how do we figure scout income? I mean, we just don't say your on det duty, you have no money, no equipment, but you do have a 35-45 year old Type S scout thats unarmed.

I can see modifying the muster out process. I can see saying that det duty scouts get equipment from the scout service and that the scout would recieve some form of pay...like the stipend from MT. I cannot see a scout going to det duty to get a ship that he can't really do anything with.

 

[Tom Schoene]

In earlier editions, detached duty scouts could got free routine maintenance at scout depots and free fueling and docking at any scout base. Beyond that, there really aren't too many routine expenses to worry about. Detached duty scouts ought to be able to cover them with odd jobs and small speculative cargos.

I'd also give them free repair work, as long as the local scout commander agreed that the damage was incurred doing something useful to the Imperium.

 

[T. Foster]

If you've served 4+ terms then you're also eligible for a "Retirement Pay" stipend too, right (or does that only kick in after 5 terms)? Anyway, unless the new rule specifically excludes that I'd include it (and if it does specifically exclude it I'd suggest the rule should be changed ). I'll have to take a fresh look at this when I get home...

In general, though, I do like the notion of making DD/the free ship a voluntary trade-off rather than a simple matter of luck -- eliminate once and for all those ex-scouts in Merchant campaigns with 'extra' ships lying around.

 

[plop101]

T.Foster writes:

In general, though, I do like the notion of making DD/the free ship a voluntary trade-off rather than a simple matter of luck -- eliminate once and for all those ex-scouts in Merchant campaigns with 'extra' ships lying around.

True, that is a problem, but the trade-off makes it rather darn difficult for Solo adventuring Scouts.

What could be done is the following:

Scouts completing less than 4 terms get no DD Type S; they get a chance at TAS membership.

Scouts with 4 terms or more get choice between TAS membership and DD Scout, IF they roll for it as a muster benefit. Those with only 4 terms do not get a stipend. Senior Scouts with DD Scout get a stipend, just like the one in MT.

Tom Schoene writes:

In earlier editions, detached duty scouts could got free routine maintenance at scout depots and free fueling and docking at any scout base.

Free docking? That does sound logical, but I don't remember seeing a cite for that.

Also, are we assuming that our scout hero has managed to abscond, scavange or otherwise appropriate a Generate program for the computer?

One could run up and down the Scout bases in Regina easily with free docking, free fuel, free maintenance at Feri, etc, if you have all those jump and navigation programs. Without Generate, however, your paying cr10000 per parsec for a jump cassette. That tends to make things prohibitive.

My scouts with DD type S have always started out with hugh cash on hand, but no ships locker. They get all the equipment goodies they can afford at the local tech level, then they buy 2-3 jump cassettes so they can make it to a system with a nice asteroid belt. After they hit the big strike, they can afford to upgrade the computer. Till then, its prospecting, prospecting, prospecting.

You know what there aught to be: A what have you done for me lately Rule. Something where the Scout Service looks at what one has done with the DD Type S and either lets the scout continue with it or transfer the DD Type S elsewhere. Somewhat like the Bad Karma rule in Hard Times. That I could go for.
That would easily solve the merchant scout/spare ship problem too.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by plop101:
Tom Schoene writes:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> In earlier editions, detached duty scouts could got free routine maintenance at scout depots and free fueling and docking at any scout base.

Free docking? That does sound logical, but I don't remember seeing a cite for that. </font>[/QUOTE]

In my well worn CT Traveller Book its free maintenance and fuel at Scout bases, all other costs (berthing, upkeep and crew) are the character's responsibility. That said it would make more sense if berthing were free (at least for a week) at Scout bases.

Originally posted by plop101:
You know what there aught to be: A what have you done for me lately Rule. Something where the Scout Service looks at what one has done with the DD Type S and either lets the scout continue with it or transfer the DD Type S elsewhere. Somewhat like the Bad Karma rule in Hard Times. That I could go for.
That would easily solve the merchant scout/spare ship problem too.

Yep, I have somewhere in my mess a CT house rule where each roll of Ship when mustering out earned the Scout 4 years of detached duty assignments. Unfortunately its not immediatley at hand so from memory...

Upon mustering out with detached duty check monthly for an assignment at any Scout base (GM roll 2 on two d6, DM -1 per month without assignment - of course GM fiat can and should rule).

Upon first assignment the character is assigned a Type S from the surplus fleet. Mission duration and type up to GM. Subsequent assignments may replace or re-equip the ship assigned.

Upon failure to report for a monthly assignment check in (if not on assignment) the character must avoid a reprimand (8+ roll, DM +1 per full term served, including detached duty, DM -1 per consecutive missed check in). Each reprimand results in the loss of one term of detached duty assignments, which may result in being completely discharged from the service and loss of ship use (i.e. if reprimands equals ship rolls in mustering out then you're out of the program)

Each complete detached duty term the character gets a roll on either of the muster out tables for an additional bonus, possibly earning more detached duty terms.

Its been a while so I may have missed something but you get the idea.

 

[William]

Originally posted by plop101:
I've been looking at the T5 stuff over at Downport. In the scout section, it says, IIRC, that scouts with 4 terms or more may become a detached duty scout and recieve a Type S scout IN LIEU OF MUSTERING OUT.

My question:
If the above is correct, how do we figure scout income? I mean, we just don't say your on det duty, you have no money, no equipment, but you do have a 35-45 year old Type S scout thats unarmed.

I can see modifying the muster out process. I can see saying that det duty scouts get equipment from the scout service and that the scout would recieve some form of pay...like the stipend from MT. I cannot see a scout going to det duty to get a ship that he can't really do anything with.

I must admit that I think this was the best change in T5 CharGen. More of my campaigns have had a courier as the PCs ship than any other. For one to choose it instead of normal mustering out would have made those parties much easier to deal with.

As for income, well that's what the "small package" trade is for...

William

 

[plop101]

William writes:

As for income, well that's what the "small package" trade is for...

I reiterate, the rule makes it DARN DIFFICULT for
a solo adventuring scout.

Ok, so we start of with Scout with no name, who has just traded his muster goodies for a DD Type S.

Now he has no money, no life support [unless you believe that the Scout service provides that with the fuel, but I've never seen that done], no equipment, and no weapons. Not to mention that he doen't have a Generate Program in the MOD1bis. Just himself, his clothes, and a DD Type S with no armament. YOU say that there is small package trade, ok, HOW is he gonna pay for lifesupport? How is he gonna pay for a MCr.8 generate program or a Cr10000 Jump Cassete? Scout with no name spends the week walking around the downport, with NO FOOD, NO DRINK, looking for patrons/brokers who are'nt patronizing restaraunts [NO FOOD again]. And even if Scout with no name finds a Broker, he's got no money to buy your small package trade stuff. About the only way Scout with no name survives this is through referee fiat.

And how many times has referee fiat saved your PCs?
Oh yeah, I can count that on one finger.

How many times has your PC survived a complete week around Regina downport, starving, unarmed, and flat broke? I can count that on one finger too.

Lets have a little logic here folks. Yes, if a Scout is hooked up with other folks on a merchant or a mercenary campaign, the referee should limit his access to a DD Type S. But throwing a Solo scout out with nothing, thats just wrong.

 

[T. Foster]

Per MT advanced char-gen 'permanent detached duty' scouts get a Cr4000/year stipend; I'd keep that. Furthermore, characters with 5+ terms get Cr2000/term/year pension (i.e. Cr10,000/yr for 5 terms, Cr12,000/yr for 6 terms, etc.); I'd keep that too. Allowing the scout free fuel, maintenence, and berthing (which isn't mentioned but seems only reasonable) at scout bases, the only insurmountable expenses remaining to our solo scout are life support and the computer programs. Non-coincidentally, these are two areas where I've already broken with the official rules -- the computer program rules are absurdly dated and I threw them out the window long ago (note that neither MT nor TNE included them at all), and life support costs I've come to the conclusion are way too high in CT/MT/TNE/T4/T20 -- GT makes ls free(!), and Chris Thrash has suggested ~Cr100/person/wk as a reasonable 'compromise' rate (based on GURPS Vehicles' 'full' rather than 'total' ls). But even so I'd go back and make a case that perhaps the Type S should have total (i.e. free) ls after all -- it fits with the notion of long missions away from civilization, and even helps explain the Type S's notorious "smell issues."

So, by the letter of the rules you're completely right -- a solo scout on DD is economically doomed. But with a few (IMO) reasonable tweaks -- allowing stipends &/or retirement pay, removing berthing fees at scout bases, trashing the computer program rules, drastically reducing/eliminating ls costs -- they could definitely make a go of it. They won't get rich, but surely in a single-player scout game that shouldn't have been the goal anyway.

 

[far-trader]

Yep I think I'd have to agree the push in a solo Scout game shouldn't be profits but more of a "let's see what's out there" deal. I guess I should check out the proposed muster rules, it sounds like a departure from the old some cash and some gear, or did the foolish Scout in your game not save anything outta his pay stubs

If that's the case, sucks to be him. My game would handle it as Joe Scout gets his severence and detached duty transfer at Scout Base Epsilon Spinward Marches and he spends a few weeks of R&R on base since he is tap city. Finally the office has a dd mission for him before the base staff start finding menial odd jobs to keep him busy. They have a Type S prepped and he gets a briefing including what he's to do and how long it should take and where to report after. Bon voyage!

The retirement and such money is not a bad way to go either, though in CT the Scouts were not eligible for retirement pay. I mean if the prospect of your survival beyond a few terms is slim why save for the future

(yes we used the fail equal death when we first started playing twenty some years ago

)

 

[daryen]

Double-checking my Traveller Book, any service was eligible for retirement pay (even Other!).

Also, (in CT) the actual condition of the scout ship (or even the trader for merchants) is fairly undefined. There is nothing in the rules that says the computer only has the 1MCr worth of programs or has no weapons. (That restriction only applies to newly built ships, which the DD Type T most assuredly is not.) The referee can provide whatever he or she feels is necessary regarding weapons or software (or even ship's locker contents).

Quite frankly, in the case of a DD Type S, I have no idea how it would NOT automatically have the Generate program. The Scout Service intends for the DD scout to wander. How is he going to do that if there is no Generate program?

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by daryen:
Double-checking my Traveller Book, any service was eligible for retirement pay (even Other!).

<snip>

That is odd. I double checked my Traveller Book (not the LBB, the big hardcover from '82, sole veteran survivor of my CT stuff) before posting cause I trust my memory less every day and it states quite clearly in Mustering Out Benefits - Retirement Pay - "Retirement pay is not available to characters who have served in the scout or other service." It is a first printing so maybe that was changed later. Oh well not that important except as a footnote and I do agree with every other point, it just makes sense. Of course the main thing is to do it the way that works to make your game the best it can be for all concerned, and the rules can get bent

 

[T. Foster]

To further belabor the already-tired retirement pay issue, I looked over the MT Players Manual last night and couldn't find any evidence of Scouts (or anyone else) being excluded from retirement pay. I'm not saying it's not there somewhere (or, even if it isn't, that it wasn't intended to be there -- we are talking MegaErrata after all), but AFAICT under the letter of MT scouts with 5+ terms are eligible for retirement pay just like everyone else.

 

[daryen]

far-trader:

Upon re-rereading my Traveller Book, I found that little sentence I somehow missed the first time. You are absolutely correct and I am completely, totally incorrect. TTB specifically excludes the Scouts and Others from receiving retirement pay.

The presumed counterbalance for this deficiency is the much higher amounts available to scouts while mustering out.

 

[far-trader]

daryen:

No worries, that makes at least once I wasn't completely, totally incorrect!

 

[Grimjack]

Life Support in CT? Where? What is Life Support exactly, food, air, both? Sorry if this isn't the proper place for these questions.

 

[Takei]

Thought I'd throw a suggestion in here. If the Scout needs to have served 4+ terms to be considered for DD, then why not let them choose DD and also give them two rolls on the MO money table to represent savings built up during active service? They still lose out on a MO roll by picking DD, but do have some money to work with.

 

[WarriorKnight]

Originally posted by Grimjack:
Life Support in CT? Where? What is Life Support exactly, food, air, both? Sorry if this isn't the proper place for these questions.

As I've always understood it was both.When you dock at a starport the life support cost was to change the filters in the L.S. equipment, & restock on your provisions.(Food & water)

 

[millican]

Long ago with my boxed Classic Traveller set came the Introductory Adventure. The adventure assumed at least one PC was a Scout who was DD with a Type S Scout/Courier. The adventure sets up, by way of a bar fight (surprise!), a system where the DD Scout PC and party would survey planets in the Spinward Marches. Planetary Surveys could be turned in at any Scout Base for a set renumeration (x # CR per planetary survey). A slightly higher rate for Amber Zones was set. For Red Zones, the surveys had to be provided to the person, a Scout Administrator, who engaged the player party in the mission. In the end this was suppossed to provide a background meta-theme for the player party and provide them with a consistent, relatively, stream of income from which they could adventure further. This would then, in my opinion, cover why Scouts in CT (Book 1) didn't get retirement pay, and provided a useful DD Scout mission (it also ensured that they checked into a Scout Base on an infrequent basis, which would allow for the whole I am switching ships on you because the one you got is better that what the IISS gave me here on the outback rockball Scout Station scenario many have debated on these boards.).

 

[Eamon]

I never liked the way Scouts were treated in the Canon Traveller system. IMTU they would be treated like any other government career. They would be paid a salary (with the possibility of savings) and a pension after 5 terms. Then any honorably retired scout would be offered a chance to become a contract employee of the Scout Service.
The Imperium is so large that I don't believe the Scout Service could have covered it all.
So the non-essential exploration tasks would be left to the contract employees.
These employees from time to time be offered missions at a set price, paid upon completion.
These could be ground or space based. A scout ship might be provided or just transportion to the mission site. Otherwise the ex-scout covers all expenses except for any specialized equipment that must be returned in good condition. The ex-scout may hire anybody else to help him to accomplished the mission but the ex-scout is responsible for the mission.

 

[robject]

Life Support is one of those topics that has been discussed to death because it wasn't defined any further than 'life support'. That led to many threads on mailing lists about what constitutes life support and (especially) why it's so darn expensive.

There's no answer. Revisionists throw the rule out, along with computers. I don't know if GDW ever said anything about it.

My question is: does Book 5 (High Guard) say anything about life support?