Did T5 Retcon Meson Weapons?

[Garnfellow]

I understand that the ship design rules cover only Adventure Class, and not Battle Class ships. But I am really struggling to follow the design sequence in Book 2.

It looks like meson guns are TL13 and limited to spinals. Is this right? It would change a lot of past canon: no meson gun bays, no meson sleds.

What is the smallest ship that could mount meson weapons in T5?

 

[Spartan159]

Main category is not really a spinal, more like a really large bay. I'm guessing spinals are an BCS thing. As far as size, you can use Mount range effects to bring the size down to a mere 50 dT with a Space Range 0, which is Range 5 world range, VLong, 1000m (Up to 3km).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Yes, mesons are retconned to spinal only.

In ACS they are Main Mount only. Main is a type of small spinal mount, they use the Spine knowledge, see e.g.:

Spines is the Knowledge associated with the operation of spinal weaponry for starships and spacecraft.

Spines are the most powerful weapons a ship can carry. The Spine designation includes Main Weapons (which are larger than Bay Weapons, but fall short of the immense power of Spines).

 

[mike wightman]

No, they have not been retconned as spinal only.

They are spinal only for ACS - although their mount type is main rather than spinal.

There will be rules for meson bays in BCS if it ever sees the light of day.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

There will be rules for meson bays in BCS if it ever sees the light of day.

Is that specified somewhere?


Andrew (the author of MgT2 HG) wrote:

The following items are uncommon but may occasionally be seen:

Antimatter Spinal Mount, Collectors, Meson Bay (possibly for larger ships, but I never got a definitive answer on that one).

Note some is from canon changes handed down from above (ie: meson bays)

http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?p=921310#p921310

 

[Condottiere]

Depends on the edition.

Mongosian requires fifty percent maximum of hull volume allocated to a spinal mount, so that defaults to fifteen kay tonnes for the smallest meson variant, adjusted for actual manufactured technological level.

There's a lot of coyness regarding meson bays, by hiding them in the optional high technology section, and then rather blatantly listing them in Imperium warship armaments.

As I understand it, meson bays do not fit in the current Tee Five vision.

It's been a while since I examined Tee Five ship design, but for some reason I vaguely recall mini spinal mounts termed lances. Probably should reread that some day.

 

[Garnfellow]

Would love to have someone from the Inner Circle (tm) weigh in on this.

I do wonder if maybe there is a missing weapon mount category in MGT above large bays (500 ton) and below spinals (3,500 tons min, 7,500 for mesons), equivalent to T5's mains. Basically, a baby spinal. I like the term "lance" quite a bit, or maybe "cannon."

 

[robject]

The meson gun is a TL13 technology; however, early versions are available at TL12, prototypes at TL11, and bulky obnoxious Experimentals at TL10.

And yes, they are limited to main guns, which are essentially ACS spines. So ACS bays, for example, no matter how large, can't field meson weaponry.

There is almost definitely a "silent" weapon category in MgT which is filled by the Main weapon. It might be a straightforward homework task to adapt T5's Main guns to MgT.

BCS, on the other hand, are another matter entirely. The fact that MgT HG has meson bays should be an indicator that Marc thinks that Battle-Class Ships have freer constraints.

 

[robject]

As for the smallest ship that can field a meson gun: this one is 100 tons (it's a non-starship). I may have missed a couple things. I deliberately throttled the power plant and maneuver drive back to 1G to save on fuel. I could drop the M-drive completely and just have it orbit the mainworld...

Monitor B-AP10 Pirate's Bane MCr31.3

Crew comfort: -1

   Tons	 Component                          	  MCr	Notes
-------	 -----------------------------------	-----	--------------------
    100	 Planetoid Hull, lifters, 1 a/l free	    1	P, lifters, 1 a/l free
      1	 Plant Fuel (one month)             	    0	one month
      2	 Maneuver Drive-1 (A)               	    4	1 G
      4	 PowerPlant-1 (A)                   	    4	P 1
  66.59	 FR M Meson Gun                     	   15	
      2	 Computer Model/2 std               	    5	
      1	 Life Support Standard              	    1	10 person-months
      6	 Spacious Bridge                    	  0.4	1cc 2op 0ws
      8	 4x Crew Stateroom                  	  0.4	#4 1 crew
    0.5	 Crew Shared Fresher                	  0.5	4 crew
      8	 2x Crew Commons                    	    0	#2 
      1	 Cargo Hold Basic                   	    0

 

[mike wightman]

So if you can build a 100t ship with a spinal or main mount call it what you will what's to stop you carrying one of these in an empty 100t bay?

And if you can carry one in a 100t bay why not just mount the dun itself and forget about the 100t of ship...

Marc has said he is bound by canon, canon includes meson bays. Their removal due to a retcon whim would be... odd to say the least.

 

[Garnfellow]

There is almost definitely a "silent" weapon category in MgT which is filled by the Main weapon. It might be a straightforward homework task to adapt T5's Main guns to MgT.

Here we go. Rather than try to extrapolate from T5, here's an interpolation between MGT categories:

MGT Mains

Weapon	TL	Tonnage	Range	Damage	Power	Cost
Particle Beam	12	1,500	Long	4DD	600	600
Meson	13	2,500	Long	6DD	600	1,000

 

[robject]

So if you can build a 100t ship with a spinal or main mount call it what you will what's to stop you carrying one of these in an empty 100t bay?

And if you can carry one in a 100t bay why not just mount the gun itself and forget about the 100t of ship...

Marc has said he is bound by canon, canon includes meson bays. Their removal due to a retcon whim would be... odd to say the least.

If I recall, the issue was (mainly) power rules. ACS didn't require or warrant complicated rules. Meson guns were the concession in lieu of more complicated power rules. This was decided before 2007, so every edition of T5 has had this rule.

One benefit of this rule is that you can have PA emplacements alongside this Main Gun.

I doubt bays are designed to hold ships comfortably. However, maybe you can clamp 100t ships into tailor-made hull niches and let them fire independently. You may need a skeleton crew, but that's a small price to pay.

If you want to go that route, then you've essentially got a Battle Rider concept in ACS format... and there are ACS codes for that. But first, let's design a proper Meson gun -- because 66 tons only gets you Fighter Range.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So if you can build a 100t ship with a spinal or main mount call it what you will what's to stop you carrying one of these in an empty 100t bay?

The size constraints are different e.g. barrel length can be longer for a spinal, see FF&S where such things are specified.

Marc has said he is bound by canon, canon includes meson bays.

Like he has never changed his mind before? Say, with Agent or the economics of TCS?

Mongoose says they were told no meson bays, see quote above. Meson bays are specified in MgT2 HG as alternate tech, like Warp drives, Deflector Screens, and time travel.

Their removal due to a retcon whim would be... odd to say the least.

I agree it is an odd and pointless change. What does it matter to the OTU if meson bays exist or not?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Here we go. Rather than try to extrapolate from T5, here's an interpolation between MGT categories:

MGT Mains

Weapon	TL	Tonnage	Range	Damage	Power	Cost
Particle Beam	12	1,500	Long	4DD	600	600
Meson	13	2,500	Long	6DD	600	1,000

I would use a smaller size. Main is a type of spinal suitable for small ships in T5, perhaps in the 1000 Dt range. It's only 200 Dt base tonnage.

 

[robject]

Okay, let's design a hobbled ACS Rider that can scare the wits out of other ACS. And that means its primary mode of scariness is the Main Meson gun. Let's give it Attack Range reach, which is reasonable. We could bump that to Long Range, but the gun increases by 200 tons so the ship would similarly grow.

This ship's carrier will require very good missile defenses. I leave that as an exercise to the reader. Note that there are two more hardpoints on this design...

NOW AS TO DRIVES. Let's make them cheap, because Mike wants to mount this craft in a permanent niche in a Carrier. So let's just give it Power Plant A and ignore maneuver and jump.

Here's the basic design, I think. 260 tons. It needs crew states, a computer, and so on -- actually no I bet you don't need a computer. But meh.


Rider Escort EY-CU00 Zippity Doo MCr57.3

Actual volume: 256.5 tons
Crew comfort: +1

   Tons	 Component                          	  MCr	Notes
-------	 -----------------------------------	-----	--------------------
    300	 Unstreamlined Hull, lifters, 3 a/l 	   11	U, lifters, 3 a/l free
      3	 Plant Fuel (one month)             	    0	one month
      7	 PowerPlant-1 (B)                   	    7	P 1
    200	 AR M Meson Gun                     	   25	
     10	 2x Vd B2 Beam Laser                	    9	#2 
      1	 Computer Model/1 std               	  1.5	
      6	 Spacious Bridge                    	  0.4	1cc 2op 0ws
      2	 Clinic                             	    1	
    0.5	 Med Console                        	  0.5	
      1	 Emergency Low Berth                	  0.5	4 individuals
      1	 Crew Common Fresher                	    1	10 crew
      8	 4x Crew Stateroom                  	  0.4	#4 1 crew
     16	 4x Crew Commons                    	    0	#4 
      1	 Cargo Hold Basic                   	    0

Let's put eight of these into a Carrier. So the Carrier would have 2080 tons of hull niches, specially designed to clamp in these babies. Yeah the Carrier will be larger than 2400 tons; sue me. It's not illegal, just irregular.

And this "Carrier" is actually a Battle Cruiser type thing, so it's going to have high acceleration and decent jump.

Here it is... part-way. I haven't installed weapons or defenses or living space for the crew; this is just the drives and the hull niches. So I'm ball-parking the payload needed for all of that at about 900 tons. For a predicted total size of 7200 tons.

Battle Cruiser CB-Z3S63 Mamma Jamma MCr2211.5

Actual volume: 6274.5 tons
Crew comfort: -5
Passenger demand: -5

   Tons	 Component                          	  MCr	Notes
-------	 -----------------------------------	-----	--------------------
   7200	 Streamlined Hull, lifters, 72 a/l f	  434	S, lifters, 72 a/l free
   1944	 Jump Fuel (3  parsecs)             	    0	3 parsec jump, at 648t per parsec
  777.6	 Plant Fuel (2 months)              	    0	2 months
      2	 Fuel Scoops with Purifier          	  1.1	100 t/hr
      2	 Fuel Intakes with Purifier         	  1.1	40 t/hr
      2	 Fuel Bins with Purifier            	  1.1	20 t/hr
    560	 Imp PowerPlant-6 (Y8)              	  560	P 6
    480	 Imp Jump Drive-3 (Y4)              	  480	J 3
    360	 Imp Maneuver Drive-6 (Y8)          	  720	6 G
     42	 Spacious Bridge                    	  2.2	1cc 20op 0ws
     25	 Cargo Hold Basic                   	    0	
   2080	 8x Zippity Niche                   	   12	#8

In short: do it this way and it's "legal". Is it what you wanted? No -- you don't get meson bays. But you get a rough analogue of it. And T5 keeps the power rules simple for T5.


But Maybe What You Actually Want is BCS, because I suspect there are 5000t BCS that bristle with both Meson and PA weapons on the same ship.

 

[Garnfellow]

I would use a smaller size. Main is a type of spinal suitable for small ships in T5, perhaps in the 1000 Dt range. It's only 200 Dt base tonnage.

I'm not really comfortable with such small mesons, but let's try this for "base" MGT mains:

Weapon	TL	Tonnage	Range	Damage	Power	Cost
Particle Beam	12	+300	Long	+1DD	+120	+120
Meson	13	+500	Long	+2DD	+120	+200

Assumes this scales up like a spinal, to a maximum of x10. Further assume uses up hardpoints like spinals: tonnage/100.

 

[OjnoTheRed]

Something else to think about. This is what I get when I try to design a Meson Gun based ACS ship-killer.

It's designed to be operationally flexible, and I've probably over-crewed it with three shifts for all gunners and engineers. Jump-3 and Maneuver-4. It's basically designed around a Deep Space range Meson Gun, with EMS at Deep Space Range. Others can correct me on the precise application of the rules.

Sensors and a DS Range Meson gun are to target the enemy at absolute maximum range; now the rules restrict what can be seen by sensors to the size of the target, so effectively the maximum range is S=7. But at that range, sensing the target is fairly probable, and hitting is almost a certainty with a TL15 weapon and TL15 consoles. For 100D of damage. This design could probably be optimised by reducing the range of the weapon.

The beam lasers are for point defence mainly - the obvious counter-attack at long ranges is to lob missiles. Nuclear Damper and Meson Screen are pretty much required if you're investing this much in destructive power.

In exploring a maxxed-out ACS design, at the upper reaches of ACS ships combat plays out toe-to-toe with the bigger boys, and if you want to close the range down to S=2 (the operational range for lasers), it's 7 turns to get into range. That's 7 free hits from the Meson Gun.

Now think about BCS class. Sizes go up to S=8. Long Range sensors and weapons (S=9) could pick out BCS targets at S=8. And spinal weapons on these behemoths need to count in at least 400 ton increments (my own view is more like 2,000 ton increments). The change in scale needs a change in scale of the combat rules to make it playable. It also needs a change in scale for the design rules.

Gunned Escort EG-ZU43 Canon Class MCr781.8

Actual volume: 2380 tons
Crew comfort: +0
Passenger demand: -5

   Tons	 Component                          	  MCr	Notes
-------	 -----------------------------------	-----	--------------------
   2400	 Unstreamlined Hull, lifters        	   74	U, lifters
    720	 Jump Fuel (3  parsecs)             	    0	3 parsec jump, at 240t per parsec
     96	 Plant Fuel (one month)             	    0	one month
      2	 Fuel Intakes with Purifier         	  1.1	40 t/hr
      2	 Fuel Bins with Purifier            	  1.1	20 t/hr
     94	 Maneuver Drive-4 (Z2)              	  188	4 G
    190	 Jump Drive-3 (T2)                  	  190	J 3
    146	 PowerPlant-4 (Z2)                  	  146	P 4
      0	 DS Surf EMS                        	  3.5	
      0	 AR Surf Communicator               	  1.5	
      0	 AR Surf Scope                      	  1.5	
     12	 12x Vd T4 Beam Laser               	   24	 
    600	 DS M Meson Gun                     	  105	
      3	 Bo Nuclear Damper                  	    2	
      2	 Bo Meson Screen                    	    2	
      2	 Clinic                             	    1	
      2	 4x Med Console                     	    2	 
      8	 4x Counsellor                      	  0.8	 
      3	 3x Medical Low Berth               	  1.5	 
    106	 Spacious Bridge                    	  5.2	13cc 13op 27ws
    150	 75x Crew Stateroom                 	  7.5	1 crew
    160	 160x Crew Commons                  	    0	
      8	 8x Crew Common Fresher             	10 crew
     24	 4x Officer Suite                   	  1.6	fresher + safe
     20	 Cargo Hold Basic                   	    0	
     20	 Launch                             	   13	m1bis C L0
     10	 Hull Niche                         	  1.5	Half Vehicle Volume

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Sensors and a DS Range Meson gun are to target the enemy at absolute maximum range; now the rules restrict what can be seen by sensors to the size of the target, so effectively the maximum range is S=7.

Add a Neutrino Detector to increase detection range.

Jammers can ruin your battle plan...

But at that range, sensing the target is fairly probable, and hitting is almost a certainty with a TL15 weapon and TL15 consoles. For 100D of damage. This design could probably be optimised by reducing the range of the weapon.

Unless the target has a trivially cheap meson screen, preventing half of all hits.

Meanwhile the enemies Particle barbettes will pick apart your ship, since it lacks armour...

This design could probably be optimised by reducing the range of the weapon.

You could presumably send some scouts ahead to detect the target, and hand over the sensor contact, at least if you had some CommCasters. That way you don't have to risk the expensive meson gun ship.

The beam lasers are for point defence mainly - the obvious counter-attack at long ranges is to lob missiles. Nuclear Damper and Meson Screen are pretty much required if you're investing this much in destructive power.

Missiles are too slow, and easily countered.

Particles can't be stopped by active defences, but only by armour layer Anti-Rad. Use large enough batteries to punch through the targets armour to get near-automatic kills.




Compare with a similar ship with Particle barbettes as main weapons:
More expensive, but does 200D hits, that active defences can't prevent and can be split among several targets.

TL-15  G-ZU43                        Ergo 2   Comfort 2    Demand 0        Agility -1
       Frigate                       Total:           0       1 219        Stability 0
SYSTEM                                    #        DTON        COST      
                                                                         
Hull                                              2 400                  
Config: Unstreamlined                                            86      
Structure: Charged Plate       AV=30 ( 300 vs Blast, 150 vs Pen, 1800 vs Heat/Beam, 300 vs Pres, 0 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )      
Coating: Ablat                 AV= 0 ( 1500 vs Heat/Beam  )      
Armour Std Anti-Kinetic                   1                          AV=30 ( 300 vs Blast, 150 vs Pen, 300 vs H/B, 0 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )      
Landing Skids Tarmac                                                     
Lifters Installed                                                12      
                                                                         
Jump Field: Jump Bubble                                                    D=638 m, Flash 7
J Drive T2      J-3, 3600 EP              1         190         190      
M Drive 5B5      4 G, 5000 EP             1          75         150      
P Plant Z2      P 4, 4800 EP              1         146         146      
                                                                         
Fuel, Jump   J-3                                    720                  
Fuel, Power  4 weeks                                 96                  
Purifier                                  2           2           2      
Scoops                                    1           1           0      
Water Intake                              1           1           0      
                                                                         
Console, Control Ult C+S=15              17          34          11        Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Console, Operati Ult C+S=15              13          26           4        Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Computer m/7                              1           7          52      
                                                                         
Sensors                                                                  
Ult DS Surf Commu-14 +18A+12 PA           1                       8        
Imp AR Surf EMS-15 +16A+12 PA(E           1                       6        ACS S=7
Ear DS Surf Visor-15 +14A-- P(P           1                       7        ACS S=5
Adv DS Surf Neutr-15 +18A-- P(G           1                       7        ACS S=10
DS Surf Grav -15 +15A-- P(Grav)           1                       6        ACS S=7
Ult G Surf Jamme-15 -0A-19 A(El           1                       9        
Ult SR Surf Steal-15 -19A-- P(A           1                       4        
                                                                         
Crew:                                     2                              
Stateroom for 3                          27          54           3      
Freshers Common                          13          13          13      
Common Areas                             95          95                  
Life Support:                                                            
Med Console                               1           1           1      
Auto-counsellor                           1           1           0      
Clinic                                    1           2           1      
Life Support, Long term 200%             16          32          32        19440 person-days
Escape Capsules 200%                     17          17          17          170 people
                                                                         
Standard Air Lock                        24                              
                                                                         
Cargo                                               576                  
                                                                         
Weapons                                                                  
Mod DS B2 Part-15 +20 H:10               20         300         425      
Mod DS T3 Comm-15 +17 H:3                 2           6          15      
Ult D T3 Beam-15 +21 H:3 Def+3            3           2           6      
Ult D T3 Sand-15 +19 H:3 Def+3            3           2           2      
                                                                         
Screens                                                                  
Mod VL Bo Nucle-15 Def+3                  1           1           2      
Mod VL Bo Meson-15 Def+3                  1           1           3      
                                                                         
                                                                         
                                       Crew    Consoles      Panels      
Crew                                81               30          58      
Command                              2                                   
Bridge Crew                         20    4                              
    Pilot                                 4           1           1      
    Astrogator                            4           1           0      
    Sensor Ops                            8           2           7      
Engineer                            34    7                              
    Engineer                             14           9          17      
    Maintenance                          13                              
Service Crew                         6    1                              
    Operations                            2           2           3      
    Medic                                 1           0           0      
    Steward                               2           0           0      
Gunner                              19    4                              
    Gunner                               14          14          28      
    Screen Ops                            1           1           2

Note over 500 Dtons left unused...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I'm not really comfortable with such small mesons, but let's try this for "base" MGT mains:

Weapon	TL	Tonnage	Range	Damage	Power	Cost
Particle Beam	12	+300	Long	+1DD	+120	+120
Meson	13	+500	Long	+2DD	+120	+200

Assumes this scales up like a spinal, to a maximum of x10. Further assume uses up hardpoints like spinals: tonnage/100.

Damage should be somewhere between Bays and Spinals.

7500 Dtons worth of meson spinal does 2D×1000: 7000 avg. damage / 7500 Dtons ≈ 0.9 damage/Dton.
100 Dtons worth of bay does 1D×10: 35 avg.dam. / 100 Dton = 0.35 damage/Dton.

At 500 Dt a "Main" should do about, say, 250 damage for an average damage of 0.5 damage/Dton (better than bays, less than real spinals?).

Let's call that 1D×100 to make things exciting? That is avg. 350 damage, close enough?

 

[OjnoTheRed]

Hey, great replies, AnotherDilbert.

Yeah, in the style of rock-paper-scissors, there's always going to be a counter. And great point about packing in Particle Accelerators and using a Neutrino Detector. And it is a total glass cannon - done off-the-cuff a bit. Definitely needs armour. And I forgot to put in a computer. Looks like the crew are heading for bunks! Or we compromise on Jump performance, and reduce the crew by linking operating consoles and into batteries for defence instead of one gunner per mount.

The main point from my perspective is that BCS are going to be going toe-to-toe at very long ranges compared to ACS ships - and we can show that even ACS ships can prioritise long range weaponry. This makes space combat focussed on sensing and targetting at long ranges. If you can get the drop on the enemy at beyond active sensor range, it's possibly decisive. BCS weapons are going to be utterly huge compared to whatever an ACS can mount.

I also think this kind of ship would need to be part of a fleet - to provide that backup around electronic warfare, for example. A heavily armoured sensor craft pinging away within attack range and passing on combat targetting data to the big guns (i.e. effectively a forward observer). THAT ship can expect to be targetted.

One last point about screens - in T5, the defence roll is 1D < Defence TL - Attacker TL + Mount Mod. So, if the defending ship was TL15 and had a standard bolt-on, it would be 1D < 3 (i.e. 50% chance). If it's TL14, that defence roll becomes 1D < 2. So on seven shots to get under the guns, it looks like 2 or 3 hits at 100D each.