Did T5 Retcon Meson Weapons?

[AnotherDilbert]

And it is a total glass cannon - done off-the-cuff a bit. Definitely needs armour. And I forgot to put in a computer.

Sure, all you need to illustrate an example. You may want to look at life support for the crew...

Looks like the crew are heading for bunks! Or we compromise on Jump performance, and reduce the crew by linking operating consoles and into batteries for defence instead of one gunner per mount.

Tech upgrade the drives for smaller size and less fuel consumption?

The main point from my perspective is that BCS are going to be going toe-to-toe at very long ranges compared to ACS ships - and we can show that even ACS ships can prioritise long range weaponry. This makes space combat focussed on sensing and targetting at long ranges.

I don't see much difference. ACSs that actually try to hurt other ships will use long range weapons. Lasers (& plasma, fusion, etc.) are reduced to anti-missile duties only by the ridiculous armour even basic ships have vs. Heat and Beam.

BCS weapons are going to be utterly huge compared to whatever an ACS can mount.

We only need to add real spinals, the rest of the mounts are presumably the same. I have just added:

with slightly more damage per Dton for real spinals. With extended range a spinal is 2-3 kDt and a heavy spinal is 6-9 kDt, vaguely in line with CT.

BCSs need a new system for armour, since we can combine smaller weapons into large batteries. I.e. armour does not scale at all, but damage, hence penetration, scales with size of ship. The secondary armament barbettes on a battleship will trivially punch through even the heaviest armour with the current system.

I also think this kind of ship would need to be part of a fleet - to provide that backup around electronic warfare, for example. A heavily armoured sensor craft pinging away within attack range and passing on combat targetting data to the big guns (i.e. effectively a forward observer). THAT ship can expect to be targetted.

Agreed. The problem is that the sensor ship(s) can't survive fire from the enemy fleet for long, or at all.

A few destroyers or cruisers can play games with each other, perhaps?

One last point about screens - in T5, the defence roll is 1D < Defence TL - Attacker TL + Mount Mod.

Yes, I generally assume TLs are very similar in a fight, otherwise the lower TL side loses badly, mostly because of this.

Particles are unaffected, though. Hmm, I guess the Swordies will have to mass Particle barbettes to have a chance to hurt Imperial warships...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And it is a total glass cannon - done off-the-cuff a bit. Definitely needs armour. And I forgot to put in a computer. Looks like the crew are heading for bunks! Or we compromise on Jump performance, and reduce the crew by linking operating consoles and into batteries for defence instead of one gunner per mount.

How about something like this?

Lifting Body structure to make it easier to pack on armour layers. Decent armour against Particle.
Submersible so it can lurk underwater or in GGs.
Upgraded Neutrino sensor to detect enemy ships at long range.
Main Meson and some Particle barbettes and Missile turrets.
Basic defences.
Short range CommCasters for squadron batteries, long range CommCasters for distant sensor platforms.

100 Dt free.

TL-15  G-ZL43                        Ergo 2   Comfort 2    Demand 0        Agility 1
       Frigate                       Total:           0       1 342        Stability 3
SYSTEM                                    #        DTON        COST      
                                                                         
Hull                                              2 400                  
Config: Lifting Body                                            280      
Structure: Shell VLiteMetal    AV=42 ( 450 vs Blast, 225 vs Pen, 10500 vs Heat/Beam, 1800 vs Pres, 6000 vs Rad, 150 vs EMP )      
Coating: Ablat                 AV= 0 ( 1500 vs Heat/Beam  )      
Armour Std Anti-Kinetic                   1                          AV=7 ( 75 vs Blast, 150 vs Pen, 1500 vs H/B,    0 vs Rad,   0 vs EMP )      
Armour Std Anti-EMP                       1          48              AV=7 ( 75 vs Blast,  15 vs Pen, 1500 vs H/B,    0 vs Rad, 150 vs EMP )      
Armour Std Anti-Rad                       1          48              AV=7 ( 75 vs Blast,  15 vs Pen, 1500 vs H/B, 1500 vs Rad,   0 vs EMP )      
Armour Std Anti-Rad                       1          48              AV=7 ( 75 vs Blast,  15 vs Pen, 1500 vs H/B, 1500 vs Rad,   0 vs EMP )      
Armour Std Anti-Rad                       1          48              AV=7 ( 75 vs Blast,  15 vs Pen, 1500 vs H/B, 1500 vs Rad,   0 vs EMP )      
Armour Std Anti-Rad                       1          48              AV=7 ( 75 vs Blast,  15 vs Pen, 1500 vs H/B, 1500 vs Rad,   0 vs EMP )      
Landing Wheels Wilderness                            72          36      
Wings Incr Perform                                                       
Submersible Water Landing                            48          48      
Lifters Installed                                                12      
                                                                         
Jump Field: Jump Bubble                                                    D=638 m, Flash 7
Adv J Drive Q2  J-3, 3600 EP              1          53         107      
Ult M Drive E8  4 G, 5200 EP              1          18         108      
Ult P Plant U2  P 4, 4940 EP              1          29          87      
                                                                         
Fuel, Jump   J-3                                    576                  
Fuel, Power  4 weeks                                 67                  
Purifier                                  2           2           2      
Scoops                                    1           1           0      
Water Intake                              1           1           0      
                                                                         
Console, Control Ult C+S=15              27          54          17        Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Console, Operati Ult C+S=15              10          20           3        Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Computer m/7                              1           7          52      
                                                                         
Sensors                                                                  
Ult DS Surf Commu-14 +18A+12 PA           1                       8        
Ear LR Surf CommP-15 +14A+9 PA(           1                       5        
Imp AR Surf EMS-15 +16A+12 PA(E           1                       6        ACS S=7
Ear DS Surf Visor-15 +14A-- P(P           1                       7        ACS S=5
Adv DS BAnt Neutr-15 +23A-- P(G           1          30          12        ACS S=10
DS Surf Grav -15 +15A-- P(Grav)           1                       6        ACS S=7
Ult G Surf Jamme-15 -0A-19 A(El           1                       9        
Ult SR Surf Steal-15 -19A-- P(A           1                       4        
                                                                         
Crew:                                     2                              
Large Stateroom (1) for 1                 7          28           1      
Stateroom (1) for 1                      14          28           1      
Stateroom for 2                          35          70           4      
Freshers Common                          14          14          14      
Common Areas                             42          42                  
Life Support:                                                            
Med Console                               1           1           1      
Auto-counsellor                           1           1           0      
Clinic                                    1           2           1      
Life Support, Long term 200%             18          36          36        21840 person-days
Escape Capsules 200%                     19          19          19          190 people
                                                                         
Standard Air Lock                        24                              
                                                                         
Cargo                                               117                  
Magazine, Sz=5 - Turret Missile         270           5                  
                                                                         
Weapons                                                                  
DS M Meso-15 +25 H:100                    1         600         105      
Mod DS B2 Part-15 +20 H:10               10         150         213      
Ult DS T3 Miss-15 +19 H:M                 9          27          99      
Mod DS T3 Comm-15 +17 H:3                 2           6          15      
Mod SR T3 Comm-15 +17 H:3                 2           1           6      
Ult D T3 Beam-15 +21 H:3 Def+3            2           1           4      
Ult D T3 Sand-15 +19 H:3 Def+3            2           1           2      
                                                                         
Screens                                                                  
Mod VL Bo Nucle-15 Def+3                  1           1           2      
Mod VL Bo Meson-15 Def+3                  1           1           3      
                                                                         
Carried Craft                                                            
Hangar Fast Launch 20 Dt                  1          30           9      
                                                                         
                                                                         
                                       Crew    Consoles      Panels      
Crew                                91               37          72      
Command                              2                                   
Bridge Crew                         36    8                              
    Pilot                                12           3           6      
    Astrogator                            4           1           0      
    Sensor Ops                           12           3           8      
Engineer                            15    3                              
    Engineer                              6           4           7      
    Maintenance                           6                              
Service Crew                         6    1                              
    Operations                            2           2           3      
    Medic                                 1           0           0      
    Steward                               2           0           0      
Gunner                              30    7                              
    Gunner                               22          22          45      
    Screen Ops                            1           1           2      
Flight Crew                          2                1           1

 

[OjnoTheRed]

Love it - vastly improved design.

 

[kilemall]

I'm gathering T5 allows you to pool bays into greater penetrating shots like turrets into batteries? Well heck that was one of the major elements in my CT/HG redo.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I'm gathering T5 allows you to pool bays into greater penetrating shots like turrets into batteries?

Yes, any weapons of the same type (e.g. Beam Laser) can be grouped into a battery, even Main (aka spinal), even from different ships (B2 p171)!

Damage (= penetration) and ToHit mods are added together, so you can penetrate any armour and can basically not even miss...

 

[kilemall]

Yes, any weapons of the same type (e.g. Beam Laser) can be grouped into a battery, even Main (aka spinal), even from different ships (B2 p171)!

Damage (= penetration) and ToHit mods are added together, so you can penetrate any armour and can basically not even miss...

Whew, that latter part I'm not onboard with. If anything, tradeoff either damage or to hit, not both. You concentrate all fire on one point and take your chances, or spread the fire increasing the chance to hit but with less total damage if you do.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Whew, that latter part I'm not onboard with. If anything, tradeoff either damage or to hit, not both. You concentrate all fire on one point and take your chances, or spread the fire increasing the chance to hit but with less total damage if you do.

Agreed. I would not call T5.10 space combat entirely finished or thought through.

 

[Garnfellow]

I've posted a conversion of Main Mount Weapons for Mongoose Traveller:

https://greatdungeonnorth.blogspot.com/2021/01/main-mount-weapons.html

Thanks to everyone who has chipped in to this discussion!