CT Only: Differences between Starter Traveller, The Traveller Book and the LBBs?

[nathanbibb]

So I am still trying to understand CT enough to play with my kids, and I am wondering the same thing about the LBB (specifically my 1981 edition) vs. TTB vs. ST. What's the best way to come up with a list of the differences between these versions? Also, how is this impacted by the errata? Does the errata bring the versions in line, or are they still different?

I would love to have some kind of definitive CT reference, maybe with optional rules where there are differences (like vector vs. range band space combat).

I'm sure I'm not the first one to say this, but to me it seems like it would not be too hard to go through the three and put together something like a "diff file" for the various versions. I have the CT CD-ROM coming in a few days, so I should have access to all the versions soon.

 

[whulorigan]

I'm sure I'm not the first one to say this, but to me it seems like it would not be too hard to go through the three and put together something like a "diff file" for the various versions. I have the CT CD-ROM coming in a few days, so I should have access to all the versions soon.

Then you are in luck. When you get the CT CDROM, check out Special Supplement 4: The Lost Rules. It is a comprehensive document that does exactly what you just described above.

 

[nathanbibb]

Then you are in luck. When you get the CT CDROM, check out Special Supplement 4: The Lost Rules. It is a comprehensive document that does exactly what you just described above.

That would be great - it's not on the CD-ROM contents list, but I suppose that could be out of date. I'll look for it once I get the CD. Thanks.

 

[Supplement Four]

So I am still trying to understand CT enough to play with my kids...

Check out Rule 68A in my sig. I think it may help you.

I would love to have some kind of definitive CT reference, maybe with optional rules where there are differences (like vector vs. range band space combat).

Range Band space combat you can do without a map. You, as Ref, keep track of distance to enemy ship using lined notebook paper. You describe all the action for your players' mind's eye. You can run personal combat this way too, never having to use a grid map, by using Range Bands.

It's simple to use and makes for lively, fast paced games.

The con is that using Range Bands like this gets unwieldy as you start to add multiple enemies (or have allies at different ranges). It can be done by an experienced CT Ref, but it can get a little confusing to someone not used to using Range Bands.





There's a variant some use where a hex map is used for space combat, and one hex = one space Range Band. Distance is plotted normally, using vector movement, except that you are counting hexes. For example, a ship with an M-3 drive can accelerate from a relative stop to a speed of 3 hexes per turn. Next turn, at full burn, the ship can accelerate another 3 hexes per turn, making his total movement 6 hexes per turn. On round three, the ship can make its max speed of 9 hexes per turn.

The M-Drive is the magic number. The ship, due to vector movement, must move in a straight line and cannot alter course except for 3 hexes. So, if the ship above wants to decelerate, from a speed of 9 hexes per turn, it can decelerate to 6 hexes in one turn--but the ship must move in a straight line for those 6 hexes.

If the ship wants to alter direction on the hex board, then it can do so by 3 hexes. So, if the ship is moving at 9 hexes per turn, it moves in a straight line for 9 hexes, and then the ship can move to up to 3 adjacent hexes in any direction.

The combat turns are so long (1000 seconds) that facing is no considered. At any time, the ship can be facing any direction (thus firing arcs are not part of the combat system). Besides, just because a ship is traveling in one direction doesn't mean its bow is pointed in that direction unless the ship is constantly accelerating.

Gravity wells can effect vector (your ship, moving in a straight line, may have its course altered due to the effects of gravity), and that's covered in the rules. For the most part, though, you'll be in open space and not deal with gravity issues (keep that for after you've run a few space combats).





Vector space combat, if not run using the Range Band/Hex system, can be run using the method shown in TTB and Book 2. It's exactly like the Range Band variant vector method I just described above, except that there are no Range Bands. Instead of movement tracked in easy hexes, it is tracked in millimeters.

Don't knock this vector system. It's for the more accurate minded--for those Refs who want to be more accurate about movement than by using generalized hexes or Range Bands.

If you are trying to also teach your kids, vector movement is a wonderful way to teach some aspects of geometry and the metric system. Add in the effects of gravity, plus track some missiles, and you'll see your kids learning the metric system as they track a ship's vector.

One of the cons of the vector system, besides being more complicated that the other two versions I've described above, is that you can take over the entire floor of the den playing out a space combat--especially if using ships with high M-Drive ratings. You'll have one ship next to the chair in the kitchen, and another near the couch in the den.

You can compensate, of course, by using bigger units as range increases--but that can get sticky (and it's easier to just change the size of a hex, keeping all the other rules the same).

I'm sure I'm not the first one to say this, but to me it seems like it would not be too hard to go through the three and put together something like a "diff file" for the various versions. I have the CT CD-ROM coming in a few days, so I should have access to all the versions soon.

Don't make CT harder than it is. It's a simple game. Why complicate it?

All you need is Starter Traveller. Use that. You don't need anything else.

Or, just use the Traveller Book.

You really don't need anything else. I've used just the Traveller Book for most of my CT gaming years, and before that, I used Starter Traveller. I've never needed to go farther than what's in either of those books.

Remember that, in CT, the Ref is king. It's not like other, more modern games, where, when you need something, you go look it up somewhere. In CT, you just make it up. If you need a beast to fight, then you use the Animals chapter to create one on the fly. If you need a task, then you make it up, on the fly, as best you can. If you need a vehicle, then you just take one of the ones listed in the game and logically alter it (for example, a Troop Transport could be a variation on the Module Cutter--or, you can use the vehicle design rules in Striker). If you need a weapon not among the basic weapons, then take the closet weapon to it and alter it a little.

Make it up on the fly. Use your imagination. Keep on moving. That's Classic Traveller.

Heck, one of the most used throws has got to be when a Ref just throws 2d6 to randomly generate a target number.

The CT rules are more guidelines than they are rules. Yes, you should learn the examples, but once you are comfortable with the rules, just create your universe as you see fit.

CT isn't about looking rules up in some supplement somewhere. Besides, most of what you would be looking up does not exist.

CT is a strong Ref's playground ("strong" meaning that the Ref has a lot of influence on the mechanics).

 

[Vargas]

Don't make CT harder than it is. It's a simple game. Why complicate it?

All you need is Starter Traveller. Use that. You don't need anything else.

Or, just use the Traveller Book.

You really don't need anything else. I've used just the Traveller Book for most of my CT gaming years, and before that, I used Starter Traveller. I've never needed to go farther than what's in either of those books.

Remember that, in CT, the Ref is king. It's not like other, more modern games, where, when you need something, you go look it up somewhere. In CT, you just make it up. If you need a beast to fight, then you use the Animals chapter to create one on the fly. If you need a task, then you make it up, on the fly, as best you can. If you need a vehicle, then you just take one of the ones listed in the game and logically alter it (for example, a Troop Transport could be a variation on the Module Cutter--or, you can use the vehicle design rules in Striker). If you need a weapon not among the basic weapons, then take the closet weapon to it and alter it a little.

Make it up on the fly. Use your imagination. Keep on moving. That's Classic Traveller.

Heck, one of the most used throws has got to be when a Ref just throws 2d6 to randomly generate a target number.

The CT rules are more guidelines than they are rules. Yes, you should learn the examples, but once you are comfortable with the rules, just create your universe as you see fit.

CT isn't about looking rules up in some supplement somewhere. Besides, most of what you would be looking up does not exist.

CT is a strong Ref's playground ("strong" meaning that the Ref has a lot of influence on the mechanics).

Someone should sticky this post, whether for CT or any other RPG.

 

[Supplement Four]

Let me add this...

It is really unnecessary to plot space combat on a grid or hex map. Because facing is not an issue, it doesn't matter which direction from the ship a target lies*. All you need to know is the range to the target. Range Bands work perfectly for this, and are very easy to use.

For example, let's say your ship is in a combat with two Vargr corsairs. One is maintaining range at 5 range bands out, and the other is accelerating for a boarding action. Your ship has an M-1 drive, and you're at speed 3. You can move at speed 4 this round.

Corsair #1 matches your vector and maintains a 5 range band distance. Speed 5.

The boarding Corsair #2 is moving at full acceleration. Speed 5 (so, it will move 7 bands this round).



RANGE BAND 1: Your ship ends round here.

RANGE BAND 2:

RANGE BAND 3: Corsair #2 ends round here.

RANGE BAND 4:

RANGE BAND 5: Your Ship starts here. Corsair #1 ends round here.

RANGE BAND 6:

RANGE BAND 7:

RANGE BAND 8:

RANGE BAND 9:

RANGE BAND 10: Corsair #1 and Corsair #2 starts round here.



Each range band equals 10,000 km, if you need to know actual range. After movement this round, Corsair #1 will be 50,000 km to the aft, and Corsair #2 will be 30,000 km to the aft of the player's ship.



*Though I have sometimes enforced a variant facing rule when the ship is considered to be accelerating throughout the entire space combat round. In the above example, the players' ship and Corsair #2 are accelerating at full thrust, so the facing rule would apply to them. Corsair #2, though, moves at less that full thrust, and thus has time to fire in any direction.




I like the Range Band method because it allows me to focus the players on the inside of the ship. This is my default method of adventure class space combat in Traveller.

Instead of turning space combat into a board war game, as it can be viewed when plotting courses with hexes or using the LBB2 vector movement system, I will instead roleplay space combat.

I lay the ship's deckplans (which I always have when running a game--either purchased pretty plans or just some graph paper with my scribblings on it), and I keep track of distance to enemy ships myself using the Range Band method as described above.

When the players want range, we roleplay this. The captain has to ask the Navigator. I tell the navigator what he sees (range to target), and the Nav player tells the captain player.

The characters are just looking at instruments anyway. Space Combat ranges are too far for visual sighting of enemy vessels. So, I run combat like a tense WWII submarine movie, with the players looking at instruments and me describing what they see.

"Incoming! I've got two bogeys coming in hot at 112 degrees, 15 degrees Zebra, moving at 6 Gs. They're missiles! Heading straight for us! Estimated impact in 8 minutes, 22.08 seconds!"

"Keep your vector, helm. Full G acceleration. Engineer!, decompress all non-essential areas. And, Gunner! Point defense on those missiles in 5, 4, 3, 2 seconds...now!

Captain to crew and passengers. This is no drill. Suit up in vacc suits and be prepared to have atmo decompression. Keep all primary hatches sealed. Brace yourself and prepare for high-G maneuvers. We may experience some chop from the spillage of the inertial compensator."

It's fun.

If the ship sustains damage, then I might get creative and describe what is happening inside the ship.

Let's say I roll a Hull hit. I won't tell the players that. I'll give the bridge a warning light--they might be able to tell. And they'll send the Engineer down with maybe an assistant, and I'll describe what he sees. He might have to locate the hole and patch it or do some other type of repair work.

Then, if the ship is ever boarded, or close to being boarded, I drop the space combat game and go into using the Personal Combat system, given the situation.

Repel All Boarders!

 

[hdan]

Let me add this...
<snip>

When the players want range, we roleplay this. The captain has to ask the Navigator. I tell the navigator what he sees (range to target), and the Nav player tells the captain player.

<snip>

Let's say I roll a Hull hit. I won't tell the players that. I'll give the bridge a warning light--they might be able to tell. And they'll send the Engineer down with maybe an assistant, and I'll describe what he sees. He might have to locate the hole and patch it or do some other type of repair work.

I feel like I've been robbing my players a little bit now. If (when?) I get the chance to run another Traveller game, this is how I'm handing it.

 

[nathanbibb]

Instead of turning space combat into a board war game, as it can be viewed when plotting courses with hexes or using the LBB2 vector movement system, I will instead roleplay space combat.

This is a lot of really great info, S4 - thanks! There was a bunch of stuff I was going to reply to in your previous post, but this really struck me. I guess I was getting kind of excited looking into Mayday and the vector combat (which is all good stuff), but in a role playing situation, you are absolutely right that it makes sense to handle it from the vantage point of inside the ship. It's also the kind of thing that makes computer games like FTL so exciting to me.

Thanks for the tips, these are gold!

 

[DonM]

Then you are in luck. When you get the CT CDROM, check out Special Supplement 4: The Lost Rules. It is a comprehensive document that does exactly what you just described above.

Thanks, and while we're on this topic, there's always the chance of coming across something we missed, and I'd love to open Lost Rules back up and add to it. Everything Supp4 says is true, but I still like digging into the niggling bits. :rofl:

 

[Supplement Four]

This is a lot of really great info, S4 - thanks! There was a bunch of stuff I was going to reply to in your previous post, but this really struck me. I guess I was getting kind of excited looking into Mayday and the vector combat (which is all good stuff), but in a role playing situation, you are absolutely right that it makes sense to handle it from the vantage point of inside the ship. It's also the kind of thing that makes computer games like FTL so exciting to me.

Thanks for the tips, these are gold!

When I run space combat, using Range Bands, from a roleplaying perspective, I still use the space combat turn sequence. I just jump to roleplaying bits when necessary. I keep the players focused on their characters at their stations inside the ship, but I kept track of the combat, privately, by using the combat turn sequence. I use the 1000 second space combat turns, too, but, sometimes, I may have to break into the standard 15 second combat rounds inside of the 1000 second space combat round--I always keep an eye on the overall space combat round.

If you want to add some more roleplaying aspects to space combat, check out my sig below for CT Sensor Rules. Read 'em. They're very simple to use*, and they'll add sensor checks to your game.



*The rules are long, in an effort to to be complete, but in sum, these are the simple rules: You throw X number of dice, looking for Computer Number or less, to make a Sensors check. X number of dice will be either 1D, 2D, or 3D, depending on range. Various skills, like Navigation, can improve the roll.

That's it. That's the rules in a nutshell. But, reading the entire description of the sensors gives you a better idea on how to roleplay sensors in the game.

 

[Supplement Four]

Thanks for the tips, these are gold!

Glad to help. Also, check out Reading a Subsector in my sig. There's lots of good stuff in that thread from a number of members here at CotI. The thread is about taking the information that the game gives us and making logical assumptions about the subsector--using the tools given you to interpolate the facts of subsector.

 

[DonM]

And yes, your Sensors book is on my list, but I had a thought for a book that would be a little more than that...

Something like the MT Robots book Marc approved, and using that as a model.

If the "fanbase", ie, COTI, could agree on rules for CT which are missing and amenable, I'd give that the same treatment as the Lost Rules supplement.

So first on the list is Supp4's sensor rules.
Any other nominations, and should we take this to another thread?

 

[Vladika]

And yes, your Sensors book is on my list, but I had a thought for a book that would be a little more than that...

Something like the MT Robots book Marc approved, and using that as a model.

If the "fanbase", ie, COTI, could agree on rules for CT which are missing and amenable, I'd give that the same treatment as the Lost Rules supplement.

So first on the list is Supp4's sensor rules.
Any other nominations, and should we take this to another thread?

Probably another thread as this, adding to CT, will get long fast. I love the idea and hope I can be a constructive part.