Differing Views

[Kyle Aaron]

Do you hold fans of MGT to the same standard? Do you complain about them going on and on about how much they like the game? Or do you only find it deplorable when people you disagree with go on and on?

We're talking about different things.

I'm saying that enthusiasm and positivity are always welcome. But in a forum where people cannot be told to ⌧ off, misery and negativity can come to dominate, as they're restricted only by the self-restraint of the miserable and negative.

The thing is that people come to rpg discussion forums for two reasons: inspiration, and information. The information could be an informal book review, or suggested house rules, or campaign info, or whatever. For all those, a concise non-repetitive description is enough.

But inspiration, that's a different thing. The thing about any hobby is that sometimes you get pissed off with it. My woman plays volleyball, and it's the same as rpg groups in that there are sometimes people she doesn't get along with but puts up with to play the game, there are problems with people being late or the game being rescheduled, finding the right team to play with, the people in charge being not very good, or good but not confident enough to impose their way on the players, and so on and so forth.

When you get pissed off with your hobby, it's good to have some place to go to get your inspiration again. So the volleyballer practices with her friend alone, the gardener visits the garden store, the gamer goes to the game store or... chats on rpg discussion forums.

It's all about inspiring us, building enthusiasm. So that's why the naysayers get this hostility, because what they're trying to do is destroy others' enthusiasm.
"This game looks good, and I could run a really good session with it if -"
"No it's SHIT!"
"But I like -"
"You shouldn't because it's TERRIBLE!"
"But why -"
"Because...."

That's not inspiring. That's depressing. And that's why repetitive enthusiasm is okay, but repetitive misery isn't. Again, unless we can tell people to ⌧ off. I'm in favour of that, then the enthusiasm and naysaying reach a sort of harmonic balance, just as in a game group, but I don't set forum policies.

And as I've noted before, many MGT fans have a curious double-standard. They have no problem with posts that mindlessly praise MGT, but they whine piteously about posts that they feel mindlessly attack MGT.

I'm not particularly an MGT fanboy, I'm just beginning to have a good look at it. My standard is pretty simple: I don't want to see repetitive bitching and moaning about a particular game whatever the game is. MGT gets no special protection in my view. The same applies for CT, Traveller Hero, GURPS Traveller, even - god help us - T4. Still - you ever seen me in the T4 subforum complaining about it?

Enthusiasm is good. It's inspiring. Misery and repetitive critiques aren't. People can be miserable with my help, enthusiasm is different.

In my opinion fanboys are just as stupid and unreasonable as folks who mindlessly hate a game.

You're absolutely right. However, fanboys are enthusiastic, and enthusiasm is inspiring. Unreasoning enthusiasm is fun. Unreasoning hate is depressing.

If I'm thinking about running a game session, I may come into a forum discussing that game. There I'm looking for information and inspiration, as I said. I want the knowledge of how to run the game, and the motivation to do it.

Because ultimately, all this, all these forums, all these zillions of words of blather, is just about helping us all have good game sessions. It has no other practical purpose. And to have a good game session, you need to be inspired to actually run or play it, and have some information to do it with. But the inspiration's the main thing. There are many of us who've missed out on lots of potential gaming simply because we couldn't be bothered, we couldn't get our shit together enough to do it. We weren't inspired.

The fanboys help inspire us to enthusiasm for things. It's like people cheering at a football match. Who'd go to see the football if they were the only person watching? We enjoy enthusiasm, it's contagious.

It's got nothing to do with MGT particularly. It could be any other game we're discussing here. I mean me, I think D&D4e sounds stupid and boring. But do you see me hanging around the Wizards forums saying so? Nope. Nobody gives a shit. They'd tell me to ⌧ off, and rightly so. If you don't like something, just leave it alone.

None of which, of course, has anything to do with constructive criticism, like, "I think this table gives some funny results, perhaps if we changed the top two entries to so-and-so that'd work better." Criticism with an eye to making play better, that's good. Criticism with an eye to stopping people playing the thing, that's not useful.

So your solution is to make the forum an even less-civil place.

Not at all. I'd make it as civil as the game table. At the game table, if you have someone who is endlessly complaining about the game, they're told - one way or another, not necessarily in those words but with that basic meaning, "if you don't like it, ⌧ off." And that person then either tones down their comments, or leaves and is not missed.

Knowing that you can get that rather uncivil response tends to make you tone down your words, so that in fact the uncivil response rarely or never appears.

But those setting forum policy don't want that. So we're left with the self-restraint of those with the endless repetitive critiques. Or alternately, all the people who like game X will be discouraged by all the people who hate game X, and leave the forum. Which, you know, is perhaps not an ideal end result, that the only people left in forums discussing the game are people who hate it.

 

[Colin]

Well said. For what is is worth, I agree.

 

[Imperial Planetologist]

If you don't like something, just leave it alone.

Self-restraint works two ways.

An intreweb forum is not a gaming table. Rather than throwing more raw meat into the pit, just ignore the posters with whom you disagree. If you want to have a positive discussion about something, then have it; no one can stop you from being as wildly enthusiastic as you want to be. You have the choice to respond or not to any poster on this board; if the conversation isn't productive, then leave off.

The worst thing you can do to a forum troll is ignore him, because then you take away his power to engage you.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

That's a nice theory, but the problem is that it only takes one person responding to the miserable ones to derail the entire thread.

It's a bit like saying, "invite the annoying gamer to your game table, just don't respond to his annoyingness", or "sit down next to the crazy guy on the bus, just ignore his babble and leering." Good luck with that.

Sometimes people need a slap-down, really. We can give that through a lengthy thread with people stepping around forum rules to get their message across, or we can just tell them to ⌧ off. Most forum owners prefer the former, since they believe the latter leads to, well, usenet.

Or we could not slap them down at all, then the enthusiastic people give up and leave, and the miserable ones stay. Yay.

 

[Vile]

Or we could not slap them down at all, then the enthusiastic people give up and leave, and the miserable ones stay. Yay.

Lots of people have done that already. I might join them soon. :nonono:

 

[far-trader]

Oh FFS, and I don't mean the TNE design system :nonono:

Leaving won't solve anything. Period. Ever. I have little respect for those who think the solution is run away. Stand up or ignore it (there's an ignore function here now iirc, use that).

If you ask for opinions expect to get them running hot and cold across the whole spectrum. That's what forums are about, replying to a post. It's not restricted to just getting answers on questions or getting a "hug" when you're down. It can be that, if that's the thread you create. But it can be much more too. Or should be, of late it seems to be getting less open here...

And if someone comes along in such a thread just to troll or crap, report it. Let the mods deal with it. You don't need to be there telling anyone to take a flying leap, that's not your job, and it just makes you a troll feeder at best, another troll or thread crapper at worst. If you can't provide a reasoned response or ignore it, just report it.

On the matter of opinions, I disagree with the idea that an opinion doesn't count because "You didn't read the book", "You didn't play the game", "You didn't play the game right", etc... Some people made their opinions known based on what they were being told by people who did read the book, or claimed to. In some cases based on what they'd seen. And nobody has to play a game to know they won't like it if they read the rules and find them lacking. Rules don't work differently just because you're playing the game. Or if they do there's something wrong.

If you had a problem with opinions offered because the info was wrong the thing to do is provide better info. Some did that and they caused some to change their opinions. THAT'S the way to handle it. Not the way some attacked (in the perception of some) the people who said they didn't like it. There were two broken records playing the whole time and it was hard to see the decent posts for it. I for one am getting sick of the whole mess. It's turning me off MGT more than the actual issues. And that's just bad for Mongoose. Something to think about if you do like the game. Stop the bad mouthing of posters who disagree, concentrate on making your own posts positives. But don't oversell or exaggerate. Answer questions about perceived flaws with facts or offer fixes based on your knowledge.

I'm tired of counting to 10, it gets boring after the first dozen times, so I'll just post this rant, take it or leave it as you will. Report it. Slap a warning on it. Send me to ban island if you feel it warrants. I'm losing patience with too many here anyway. A holiday might be good, sentenced or self imposed. We'll see...

 

[Border Reiver]

Thank you. Well said Dan. Voice of Reason and all that.

 

[Icosahedron]

I came to the Mongoose forum looking for information on the new game.
I'd hoped (and still hope) to be able to gather enough positive and negative commentary - backed up with examples - to inform my opinion as much as possible.

If arguments replace information, as the current trend seems to be, I'll leave the thread/forum and maybe come back in a couple of months when people have calmed down a bit and are discussing the pocket edition which, from the information I've gathered, appears to be more my style of game. But I won't leave the Board.

There is a lot of useful information and good people on this site and I particularly value the opinions of Ishmael and Rust, who share my interest in ATUs. I hope they reconsider leaving.

 

[rust]

Leaving won't solve anything. Period. Ever. I have little respect for those who think the solution is run away. Stand up or ignore it (there's an ignore function here now iirc, use that).

Sorry for coming back for a moment, but this deserves an answer.

I did not come to this forum to make a stand, prove anything, or whatever.

I visit a forum because I expect or hope to find something there, in this case
what Kyle Aaron called information and inspiration for my game.

And if I do not find it, or do no longer find it, because it is impossible to filter
out of all the noise, or because there is not much left but noise, I go, since
there simply is no reason to stay.

"Go", by the way, not "run", please.

I have a setting to expand and improve, I have a game to prepare, and lots
of other things connected with the hobby to spend my spare time on.
I do not have that much spare time that I would like to waste it (or, more
precisely, have it wasted) by following senseless arguments.

And, frankly, there are other forums, with information and inspiration for my
game, and without all that noise.

 

[Echo]

It must be said that the Mongoose Traveller forum itself does not have this problem, now. There are still debates and conflicts, and even personality clashes, of a sort, but these types of protracted debates no longer seem to happen.

The problem on this site, I feel, is that simply having the view 'I like Mongoose Traveller', or showing any enthusiam towards the game whatsoever, is immediately equated with being a 'mindless fanboy' in the minds of some people, and incapable of critical thought. Until that issue is resolved, the problem will keep on occurring, I feel, because it is flat out insulting, and it is supposed to be a forum for fans of Mongoose's Traveller game.

 

[atpollard]

Colin, please delete my account.

While I understand the symbolic gesture, you do realize that you can achieve the same end result of "not reading COTI posts" by just not logging back on. I have a gmail account that I needed for one interaction that I havn't visited in months, so I speak from experience when I say that this works.

[fyi, this post is intended as a good-natured quip. No offense or implied attack should be taken, and none was intended].

 

[atpollard]

Knowing that you can get that rather uncivil response tends to make you tone down your words, so that in fact the uncivil response rarely or never appears.

TML had this type of policy. IMHO it did not achieve your expected result.
Unfortunately, the anonymity of the web emboldens people.

[as an aside, that's why I do not use a 'secret identity', but rather the same name everywhere - as a personal reminder that whatever I write bears my name. It helps remove one temptation from my life.]

 

[atpollard]

That's a nice theory, but the problem is that it only takes one person responding to the miserable ones to derail the entire thread.

It's a bit like saying, "invite the annoying gamer to your game table, just don't respond to his annoyingness", or "sit down next to the crazy guy on the bus, just ignore his babble and leering." Good luck with that.

Sometimes people need a slap-down, really. We can give that through a lengthy thread with people stepping around forum rules to get their message across, or we can just tell them to ⌧ off. Most forum owners prefer the former, since they believe the latter leads to, well, usenet.

Or we could not slap them down at all, then the enthusiastic people give up and leave, and the miserable ones stay. Yay.

Although you have, at times, eloquently stated your case, so far you have failed to achieve your stated objective. One cannot verbally 'slap someone down' on a forum. They will simply respond in kind and the topic will still degenerate into a "yes it is, no it isn't" flame war.

At the risk of offering unwanted advice, perhaps a change of tactics is in order. Every time you see a post that you feel is 'thread crapping' on a good positive topic, report it to the Moderators. Let them fight that battle, since they have the tools and authority to take action (issue warnings, edit/delete posts, ban troublemakers). If my modest proposal fails to stop the 'thread crapping', then that would indicate that the 'powers that be' disagree with you on the subject. In THAT CASE, leaving would be the most appropriate course of action.

Free advice and worth every penny.
Arthur

 

[Allensh]

This really sucks.

I in no way wanted to cause people to leave these boards. I just wanted greater consideration out of someone who I felt was being unreasonable and unpleasant.
I should have known that this wasn't going to happen.

So...I guess I lose. I will remove myself from the board, since I can't put up with this stuff very well and I don't want to be the cause of anyone else leaving.

Allen

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Enough arguing. Thread closed.