Differing Views

[tbeard1999]

Ladies and Gentlemen, we proudly present:

Another round of meta-debate about what may be debated where and by whom !

In the one corner we have those who feel an urgent need to repeat the same
critical statements over and over again, ad nauseam.

In the opposite corner we have those who think that the debate should move
on and should cover at least some other points, too, but who are accused of
attempted censorship whenever they say so.

And in your corner, we have someone who apparently imagines that he can materially misrepresent the arguments of those he disagrees with and get away with it.

In point of fact, your side of the discussion is not arguing that we should "move on". Rather, they are blatantly calling for the suppression of opinions they disagree with. Now, if the forum owner wants to do this, then fine, it's his forum. But since he has declined to turn this forum into the MGT Adoration Forum, I think that I will continue to openly oppose calls for censorship.

 

[aramis]

Ty:
Freedom of speech does NOT exist as a right on the BBS. Never has. Censorship is practiced on most BBS systems.

You're only free to post so long as you remain polite, on topic, and within the board rules; thread crapping is a violation of those. (Actions to the detriment of the community.)

Posting uninformed opinions about product that has been released is bad form, and often is thread crapping.

 

[tbeard1999]

Ty:
Freedom of speech does NOT exist as a right on the BBS. Never has. Censorship is practiced on most BBS systems.

Yes I know that. You'll note in my post that I explicitely acknowledged the right of the forum owner to limit speech. And as it happens, I have no problem with such, as long as the rules are clearly posted.

But in a case where forum users are calling for a *new* censorship policy (or attempting to stretch an existing policy far beyond its reasonable limits), I think it's desirable to argue against it.

Posting uninformed opinions about product that has been released is bad form, and often is thread crapping.

Wil, my problem is that words like "uninformed" are extremely subjective. And I am not at all confident in the good faith of folks who openly call for suppression of speech they disagree with. The way I see it, if some speech is "bad", then the best remedy is to rebut it with "good" speech.

And if we are gonna restrict speech, can we at least do it equitably? I see no intellectual or moral difference between someone who says "I irrationally hate MGT" and someone who says "I irrationally love MGT". If we're gonna censor the former, let's censor the latter.

 

[Klaus]

Ah, the myth of the "fanboy".

They do not exist. That was a term bandied about even before the book was published; a pre-emptive strike, of sorts. We have a bunch of folk discussing their views on the the MGT rules, some negative, some positive, sometimes subjective, and that's normal. There are many critical opinions of it that do not end up in protracted and pointless shouting matches. Grown ups can actually discuss stuff, even passionately, in a mature fashion.

But it seems some folk want to create bad feeling and aggro, like it's the TML all over again. Well that was then, this is now, and a lot of us are getting sick of the vocal self-martyrdom that keeps crapping our threads.

The liberal appellation of "fanboy" is a straw man argument used by those with nothing worthwhile to say. This isn't censorship, it's just good manners. Try a bit of self censorship for a change - it's how civilised people go about their business.

I'm quite happy to debate with critics - but I just see a lot of bad tempered name calling.

You might wanna try looking in the 'Pit to see how adults who vehemently and often passionately disagree with each other can conduct a civilised discussion.

 

[Echo]

It's also threadcrapping. It's coming along to another discussion and abusing people for having the discussion. I mean, me for example, I have no interest in Aussie Rules football. And this gets discussed at work, at great length and in obscure detail. But do I poke my head into the little group of footy fans and say, "how can you like this game? This game sucks!"

No, I don't. First up, that's just being an arsehole, why crap on someone else's fun? Second, they'd tell me to ⌧ off.

The rules of this forum don't allow us to tell people to ⌧ off, so all we're left with is people's sense of self-restraint. Which is a pity, since obviously they don't have it. "You just have to accept my differing opinion about Aussie Rules football." No, no they don't. I just have to mind my own business.

So either show some restraint, express your opinion sure, but not at great length and in every single damn discussion about the topic, or else change the forum's rules so we can tell people to ⌧ off. "Oh, that's a borderline insult -" And having people threadcrap and try to ruin other people's enthusiasm and fun, that's insulting, too.

Just try it at work or around the game table, telling other people what they like is crap, see what happens.

Another vote for the right to tell certain individuals to "⌧ off". Reasoning is merely akin to prevarication with some folks it seems. Why not just tell it as it is? I bet it would ultimately reduce the number of protracted, self perpetuating arguments on this site, for sure!

 

[deniable]

So either show some restraint, express your opinion sure, but not at great length and in every single damn discussion about the topic, or else change the forum's rules so we can tell people to ⌧ off.

Censorship? I'm not seeing it. Must have been the straw men again.

 

[Valarian]

You might wanna try looking in the 'Pit to see how adults who vehemently and often passionately disagree with each other can conduct a civilised discussion.

Are you quite sure about that?

 

[Allensh]

And if we are gonna restrict speech, can we at least do it equitably? I see no intellectual or moral difference between someone who says "I irrationally hate MGT" and someone who says "I irrationally love MGT". If we're gonna censor the former, let's censor the latter.

That does it.

I am not a Mongoose fanboy. I simply think that MGT is a good version of Traveller. I NEVER said that I wanted to limit debate or criticism of the game. I merely am sick of Supplement Four's threadcrapping and blathering on about something he heretofore knew nothing about. He's got a copy of the book now; assuming he invests the energy to read it...well, he'll still hate it but that's fine. At least then he is no longer speaking out of ignorance. I was HOPING that maybe he'd realize that this section of the board is about Mongoose Traveller, that not every thread is one where criticism is appropriate, although some threads like that do exist and that after you've stated your opinion twenty or so times, everyone already knows what it is! The equine is dead; the beatings can stop.

I absolutely guarantee you that if someone did something similar in the T20 or CT sections of the board there would be outrage. Why then is it ok for him to do that sort of thing here?

Allen

 

[Imperial Planetologist]

even opinions by someone who has not actually seen or read the book?

An example of the kinds of encounters offered in 760 Patrons was posted by someone who has the book. Others confirmed that this was a reasonable example of what the book contains.

Based on this it was possible to develop an informed, if incomplete, opinion of the content of the book. For me, it showed that the Mongoose misrepresented the book as something that it's not. "Patron" has a specific meaning that runs through all editions of Traveller, except, it seems, MgT. That was sufficient information for me to develop an impression of the book.

Yes, it is.

No, not in a thread where differing opinions are expected and encouraged.

Again, there's expressing your opinion, and then there's going on about it at great length, again and again and again. As I said, that's okay if people can tell you to ⌧ off, but here they can't, so they just have to put up with you raining on their little parade. Me, I'm in favour of changing the forum rules, it makes the discussion much more like sitting around a game table - but if we're not doing that, then the naysayers have got to have some self-restraint.

So your solution is to make the forum an even less-civil place.

Nice.

Let's face it, nine-tenths of this complaining about MGT is just "it's not like the old days, man." It's nostalgia bumping up against brutal new reality. It's people comparing their idealised past with their empty (of Traveller) present. No reality can compare to the idealised past. If CT were published today for the first time the same people now praising it as the good old days would be complaining about it.

No, it is not like the old days. If you want it to be like the old days, begin by turning off your computer.

Translation: I've discovered the onetruway and all of you are having badwrongfun!

 

[Colin]

This is Getting Tiresome

Gentlemen: Resorting to insults and cries of "⌧ off" isn't the solution, not on these boards. If you feel someone's post infringes on the rules of the board, then report it. A moderator will take a look, and if he agrees with you, issue a warning or even an infraction. If he doesn't (and to the best of my knowledge, yes, all the mods are male) then nothing will happen.

Constant repetitions of the same complaint are tiresome. Judging whether that complaint has validity, though, is difficult. It's all very subjective.

Could Mongoose Traveller have been better? In my opinion, sure. Nothing is a deal-breaker for me, though. I think that it is very workable, and provides a good framework to do what Traveller GMs have always done, and house-rule the hell out of it.

I would request that the threadcrapping stop, that the "fanboi" insults stop, and that we allow each other to have their owns views, without being a dick about it. Otherwise, I will start intervening.

 

[atpollard]

I think some of us need to take a deep breath, step back, and count to 10.

If you like MGT, great. If it works for you, that's all that matters, but you have to accept that it doesn't work for everyone, and some consider it a wasted opportunity.

If you don''t like MGT, fine. You have the right to say so, as long as you aren't rude or gratuitous, but again, you have to accept that some people like it.

There is no "wrong" or "right" here.

Whether you like MGT or not, it seems to be selling well, and I think we can all agree that anything that gets more people playing Traveller has to be a good thing.

Debate is good.
Civility is good.

(I just thought that we needed a reminder of what the topic was about.)

 

[tbeard1999]

Ah, the myth of the "fanboy".

They do not exist.

Sorry, but folks who blindly and fanatically defend MGT seem as common to me as folks who blindy and fanatically attack it.

I'm quite happy to debate with critics - but I just see a lot of bad tempered name calling.

I do too, but I see it on both sides of the issue.

 

[tbeard1999]

That does it.

I am not a Mongoose fanboy.

You'll note in my post that I never called you (or anyone) a "fanboy". I'm only asking for mindless fans to receive the same treatment as mindless critics:

if we are gonna restrict speech, can we at least do it equitably? I see no intellectual or moral difference between someone who says "I irrationally hate MGT" and someone who says "I irrationally love MGT". If we're gonna censor the former, let's censor the latter.

I'm also opposed to restricting criticism. That said, I have no problem with rules of conduct. But I want them to be enforced as equally as possible.

 

[Allensh]

You'll note in my post that I never called you (or anyone) a "fanboy". I'm only asking for mindless fans to receive the same treatment as mindless critics:

if we are gonna restrict speech, can we at least do it equitably? I see no intellectual or moral difference between someone who says "I irrationally hate MGT" and someone who says "I irrationally love MGT". If we're gonna censor the former, let's censor the latter.

I'm also opposed to restricting criticism. That said, I have no problem with rules of conduct. But I want them to be enforced as equally as possible.

Ok, exactly who do you think is a mindless fan? and what is the functional difference between that and the "fanboy" label used to denigrate someone who likes something that the person employing the label does not?

I will state this again in a different way and hopefully this will be understood because I am really sick of repeating this:

It is NOT criticism that I think should end. Just repeated criticism in inappropriate places that has reached the level of harassment. Because that what threadcrapping is, pure and simple..harassment and online bullying. Simple consideration is what I have been asking for.

Truthfully, I really do not care whether you like MGT or not. While I may read your criticisms and might even agree to some extent with one or two, your opinion on the game has absolutely no impact on my opinion of it. I just get sick of reading negative opinions - and I do NOT like being insulted - in threads where I just want to talk about the game.

Allen

 

[Colin]

Rules of conduct are enforced equitably. As you will both find out if this continues.

I've found that those attacking Mongoose Traveller here, in a few instances, tend to be more vociferous than those defending it. Keep in mind that the defense is a reaction to a perceived attack. Genuine criticism is not an attack; repeated crticism, on the same topic, with little variation, is, or can certainly be perceived as such. Now, I'm not talking about the sort of "attack" that gets you an infraction. It is the sort of attack that provokes a response. It could even be considered trolling, which is an infraction under board rules.

I understand that some people don't like MongTrav. Fine. I even understand why. But make your point and be done. Continuing to slag it ad infinitum without saying anything new will merit an official response from me.

I trust everyone understands this. Yes? Good. Th3n I won't need to say soemthing like this again.

 

[Ishmael]

This sort of fanboi rant happens far too often these days.
I fool with Trav as a hobby to relax, but more often that not, coming here is more of a shouting match ( "you suck!".."no I don't! YOU suck!" ) and less of discussing ideas that can be useful to anyone regardless of OTU vs ATU or ruleset.
I no longer have patience for this crap...its getting to be worse than the TML as far as I'm concerned.

Colin, please delete my account.

 

[rust]

Colin, please delete my account.

I knew I did forget something ... o:

Colin, while you are at it, please delete my account, too.

Thank you.

 

[forester]

Concerning mongoose traveller, I happen to like the system. I had ordered it on an online service and brushed up on the old system with some game designer workshop books from 1983 which had admitadly been collecting dust. When the mongoose rule book arrived I was impressed with the reflection of the older version. I never played the clones between these editions so I realy couldn't give a fair comparison between all editions.

I won't go blow by blow, but will mention that a couple of things threw me off. The character skethes were not that grand, but if I wanted pretty, space filling illustrations, I could purchase another game system that is going through a revamp instead.
There is an example given in the book that is incorrect according to the rules just presented. But I suppose that in this mistake a reader can acctualy understand the rule more by recognizing that it is in fact a mistaken example, and knowing where the incorrect number is placed.

But these are minor complaints. I'm happy that it is generaly presented as a generic game system, leaving alot of lee way for the referee to create thier own campaign setting.

The Spinward Marches is well done in my opinion, and the writer outright states that this is a presentation of his take of older refrences and that the players of the game should adjust things to thier liking as it is thier game world after all.

So basicly I'm happy with the revamped mongoose version and will continue purchaseing the supplements.

On a side note, my players rolled up some pc's for MGT after a night of sword slashing dungeon crawls in another system and are excited about thier first expidition into Imperium space in 15 years. That will be this Saturday.

 

[aramis]

It's really simple, from my point of view: You want to post opinions about content of an in-print product, wait until you've read it.

If you haven't read it, don't post comments in threads asking about it (good or bad). Post questions, sure...

 

[aramis]

It's really simple, from my point of view: You want to post opinions about content of an in-print product, wait until you've read it.

If you haven't read it, don't post comments in threads asking about it (good or bad). Post questions, sure...