Divergence of Sophonts over time

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

I am not trying to say you can't do it. I am just trying to say that would be a massive retcon to the setting.

Guess what? As far as the Zhodani are concerned, it's actually not a retcon!

As Mike Wightman's CT Alien Module 4 quotation (above) points out, modern Zhodani have the taxonomical name Homo zhdotlas, meaning that they are described as a separate species of Homo (human) in the text, rather than a subspecies (otherwise they would be Homo sapiens zhdotlas). The text further points out that they are the product of a hybridization between two earlier species of human on Zhdant (Homo zhdatl and Homo vlastebr), the implication being that these two species evolved independent from each other, due to geographical isolation, from the original humans dropped off by the Ancients around -302,000.

I admit this was probably not the intent of the writer, and it's more likely that the taxonomy is a result of a misunderstanding of how its done rather than prima facie evidence that they were intended to be a distinct species from the start, but that is what it says, so that is what I am sticking with.

Someone at GURPS noticed this too, and explained it in GT: Humaniti it by saying that the Zhodani regard themselves as a separate species of human (Homo zhdotlas), while Imperial scientists do not (Homo sapiens zhdotlas), which is pretty much on point for both of them, attitude wise.

Interestingly, GT: Humaniti also hints at strong political pressures behind the Imperial classification schemes for humaniti, pointing out that until recently the Luriani were commonly regarded as a separate species of human (Homo luriani), but ever since the 'fall' of the Solomani Movement at the Imperial Court, they are classified as Homo sapiens luriani in official Imperial circles -- but absolutely nowhere else.

And the Luriani have definite compatibility issues with both Vilani and Solomani humans. Luriani-Imperial hybrids are always messed up, absent high TL genetic interventions.

Mongoose, for its part, describes the Luriani as being hominids but not humans. If this is true, then we have to invent an entirely new genus/species combination for them (Luriani sapiens? Pontus sapiens?) under the Hominini taxonomical tribe (the next step up from our genus), where they would be grouped with us (Homo) and our nearest cousins, the chimps and bonobos (Pan).

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

Remember, Yaskoydray took members of Homo rhodesiensis / H. heidelbergensis as his helpers, right? And those dudes are the most recent ancestor of both H. Sapiens and Neanderthals.

T5 mentions four of us specifically: Homo sapiens, Homo rhodesiensis/heidelbergensis, Homo erectus and Homo neanderthalensis. Those were probably just the ones that were known contemporaries of us as of -300,000. Aramis mentions some of the others in his post above, although there are a few more, like Homo naledi (an arboreal version of human) and Homo luzonensis (another island-miniaturized species).

The fact that T5 specifies these species as being part of the diaspora is pretty big. Prior to that, I do not think it's ever even been implied that anyone other than Homo sapiens was taken offworld in canon.

The vast majority of the human population of the Ziru Sirka are pureblood Vilani. The vast majority of the Third Imperium are still purebred Vilani.

That is absolutely not true. Or, perhaps I should say that, absent any Mongoosian messing around with canon that I don't have at my disposal, this is absolutely not true. Only a tiny percentage of Imperial citizens are pureblood Vilani, and most outside of a minor race world or region are of mixed, but mainly Solomani, stock.

Using the Vilani bloodline table of page 26 of Vilani & Vargr, we can actually extrapolate a rough breakdown of the demographics of Charted Space, at least in regards to humans of Solomani/Vilani heritage:

Outside the old Ziru Sirka boundary: 90.5% Solomani to mostly Solomani, 9.5% at least half Vilani, 0% Pure Vilani.
In old ZS, outside Domain of Vland: 81.7% Solomani to mostly Solomani, 17.9% at least half Vilani, 0.4% Pure Vilani
In DoV, outside Vland Sector: 70.2% Solomani to mostly Solomani, 26.2% At least half Vilani, 3.6% Pure Vilani
In Vland Sector, outside Cultural Region: 56% Solomani to mostly Solomani, 34.5% At least half Vilani, 9.5% Pure Vilani
Most worlds in Vilani Cultural Region: 41.7% Solomani to mostly Solomani, 41.6% At least half Vilani, 16.7% Pure Vilani
On Vland, Tauri, Shulishu, a few others: 27.8% Solomani to mostly Solomani, 44.4% At least half Vilani, 27.8% Pure Vilani

I'm not guaranteeing the math, but it's roughly correct. Results would also skew by social status -- mostly towards genetically pure Solomani in the upper ranks, except in the opposite direction near or around Vland. Among the regular classes, however, Vilani and Vilani dominant individuals are only the majority inside the Vilani Cultural Region.

The Spinward Marches and Trojan Reach are outside the old Ziru Sirka boundary, so their demographics would generally match the top line, with a few worlds, like Regina, having a higher percentage of mixed Vilani (16.7%) in their population than the regional average due to their government type, though still no pure Vilani in any measurable population.

 

[Grav_Moped]

T5 mentions four of us specifically: Homo sapiens, Homo rhodesiensis/heidelbergensis, Homo erectus and Homo neanderthalensis. Those were probably just the ones that were known contemporaries of us as of -300,000. Aramis mentions some of the others in his post above, although there are a few more, like Homo naledi (an arboreal version of human) and Homo luzonensis (another island-miniaturized species).

The fact that T5 specifies these species as being part of the diaspora is pretty big. Prior to that, I do not think it's ever even been implied that anyone other than Homo sapiens was taken offworld in canon.

That is absolutely not true. Or, perhaps I should say that, absent any Mongoosian messing around with canon that I don't have at my disposal, this is absolutely not true. Only a tiny percentage of Imperial citizens are pureblood Vilani, and most outside of a minor race world or region are of mixed, but mainly Solomani, stock.

Using the Vilani bloodline table of page 26 of Vilani & Vargr, we can actually extrapolate a rough breakdown of the demographics of Charted Space, at least in regards to humans of Solomani/Vilani heritage:

Outside the old Ziru Sirka boundary: 90.5% Solomani to mostly Solomani, 9.5% at least half Vilani, 0% Pure Vilani.
In old ZS, outside Domain of Vland: 81.7% Solomani to mostly Solomani, 17.9% at least half Vilani, 0.4% Pure Vilani
In DoV, outside Vland Sector: 70.2% Solomani to mostly Solomani, 26.2% At least half Vilani, 3.6% Pure Vilani
In Vland Sector, outside Cultural Region: 56% Solomani to mostly Solomani, 34.5% At least half Vilani, 9.5% Pure Vilani
Most worlds in Vilani Cultural Region: 41.7% Solomani to mostly Solomani, 41.6% At least half Vilani, 16.7% Pure Vilani
On Vland, Tauri, Shulishu, a few others: 27.8% Solomani to mostly Solomani, 44.4% At least half Vilani, 27.8% Pure Vilani

I'm not guaranteeing the math, but it's roughly correct. Results would also skew by social status -- mostly towards genetically pure Solomani in the upper ranks, except in the opposite direction near or around Vland. Among the regular classes, however, Vilani and Vilani dominant individuals are only the majority inside the Vilani Cultural Region.

The Spinward Marches and Trojan Reach are outside the old Ziru Sirka boundary, so their demographics would generally match the top line, with a few worlds, like Regina, having a higher percentage of mixed Vilani (16.7%) in their population than the regional average due to their government type, though still no pure Vilani in any measurable population.

I've said this elsewhere on the forums, but a quite significant fraction of "Solmani" in Imperial Space aren't. Taking on Solmani self-identification provides a means of escaping the rigid social stratification within Vilani society, and with interstellar travel and constrained interstellar communication present, it's a viable option for individual and intergenerational socioeconomic advancement.

Or, in short, low-SOC Vilani could get ahead by passing as indeterminate-SOC Solmani.

 

[mike wightman]

Of course it is true. The numbers for V&V don't bear up to scrutiny - they (DGP) made them up and got them wrong.

How many Solomani were shipped off to the Ziru Sirka before the Rule of Man collapsed? The total population of Earth at the start of the ISW era was 12 billion, the Ziru Sirka had a total Vilani population of...

 

[robject]

Someone at GURPS noticed this too, and explained it in GT: Humaniti it by saying that the Zhodani regard themselves as a separate species of human (Homo zhdotlas), while Imperial scientists do not (Homo sapiens zhdotlas), which is pretty much on point for both of them, attitude wise.

Interestingly, GT: Humaniti also hints at strong political pressures behind the Imperial classification schemes for humaniti, pointing out that until recently the Luriani were commonly regarded as a separate species of human (Homo luriani), but ever since the 'fall' of the Solomani Movement at the Imperial Court, they are classified as Homo sapiens luriani in official Imperial circles -- but absolutely nowhere else.

GURPS: Traveller is always a useful source. Certain GURPS books are, in my mind, canon. Humaniti might be one of them. Sword Worlds is one. Interstellar Wars might be one.

 

[whulorigan]

T5 mentions four of us specifically: Homo sapiens, Homo rhodesiensis/heidelbergensis, Homo erectus and Homo neanderthalensis. Those were probably just the ones that were known contemporaries of us as of -300,000. Aramis mentions some of the others in his post above, although there are a few more, like Homo naledi (an arboreal version of human) and Homo luzonensis (another island-miniaturized species).

It would be interesting to think about the relationship (if any) of Homo naledi to the Suerrat.

 

[daryen]

GURPS: Traveller is always a useful source. Certain GURPS books are, in my mind, canon. Humaniti might be one of them. Sword Worlds is one. Interstellar Wars might be one.

GURPS books in general are great resources. And the GT books are, for the most part, well done by very good authors. However, at this point, none of them are canon and what they did gets continuously paved over by Mongoose. Humaniti is already invalidated, and apparently Sword Worlds has been bulldozed. I have to assume that this point, none of the GT books are useful for OTU purposes. They're still great for IMTU purposes, but they are worthless for the OTU in any capacity other than something someone tried at one point in time.

 

[tjoneslo]

However, at this point, none of them are canon and what they did gets continuously paved over by Mongoose.

Canon is for writers. For YTU anything you want is canon or not. Mongoose's writers have a loose association with prior canon and the editors have little interest in checking it. If you are deeply offended by the paving done by Mongoose they are always looking for new writers and new material.

 

[daryen]

Canon is for writers. For YTU anything you want is canon or not. Mongoose's writers have a loose association with prior canon and the editors have little interest in checking it. If you are deeply offended by the paving done by Mongoose they are always looking for new writers and new material.

To be clear, I know that and am fine with that.

And I wouldn't say "deeply offended", so much as "disappointed". Considering that those who did this before did do the research and tried, the lack of effort is just disappointing.

And they have already made clear to me a long time ago that I wasn't welcome. I haven't tried since.

 

[robject]

Well, it's clear that Mongoose is not writing canonical material, with some notable exceptions.*



* The Zhodani Book, and the Deneb Sector, that I know of.

 

[mike wightman]

Would that be the first 1e Deneb book or the new 2e Deneb book? They are different...

 

[Silverhawk]

Sadly, Jean M. Auel already slaughtered, butchered, and consumed the Darwinian Romance genre whole, then cracked the bones and gnawed the marrow.

I got a copy of the first of her novels from my uncle for graduation from high school. Got maybe 20 or 30 pages before going Bleh and putting on the shelf. One of the few books I have never finished.

 

[robject]

Would that be the first 1e Deneb book or the new 2e Deneb book? They are different...

Can someone do a capsule review of the new one?

 

[aramis]

T5 mentions four of us specifically: Homo sapiens, Homo rhodesiensis/heidelbergensis, Homo erectus and Homo neanderthalensis. Those were probably just the ones that were known contemporaries of us as of -300,000. Aramis mentions some of the others in his post above, although there are a few more, like Homo naledi (an arboreal version of human) and Homo luzonensis (another island-miniaturized species).

The fact that T5 specifies these species as being part of the diaspora is pretty big. Prior to that, I do not think it's ever even been implied that anyone other than Homo sapiens was taken offworld in canon.

It's not like the exact age of Homo sapiens was well established at the time, and even tho the literature scientific was moving towards 350 KYA, the popular was still touting 250 KYA... Pop sci lit was always behind. Library reference works even further so.

GDW were (on that score) ahead of the science.

 

[robject]

Regardless. I've never played up differences. In our games, these human species were more like "other countries".

So, the Zhodani were like Russians.
The Imperials were like "Europeans" of various types.
The Solomani were like Americans.
The Sword Worlders... well of course Vikings.
The Darrians were Turkic.
And so on.

Nobody was like Canada


So, Russians rather than evolved Neandertals, and so on.

 

[daryen]

Regardless. I've never played up differences. In our games, these human species were more like "other countries".

So, the Zhodani were like Russians.
The Imperials were like "Europeans" of various types.
The Solomani were like Americans.
The Sword Worlders... well of course Vikings.
The Darrians were Turkic.
And so on.

Nobody was like Canada


So, Russians rather than evolved Neandertals, and so on.

So, I guess that makes the Vilani the Chinese?

Also, so sadly true on the Solomani comparison. *sigh*

 

[Condottiere]

They are highly bureaucratic, and control seems provincially decentralized.