General Do you have vicious Nobles?
- Thread starter Spinward Scout
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Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Trick question.
Do senior and flag rank command personnel NEED to be qualified in EVERY aspect of shipboard goings-on?
Do command personnel need to have pilot-1+, navigation-1+, engineering-1+, steward-1+, medic-1+ and gunnery-1+ skills in order to be eligible for promotion to Rank O5+ ...?
Because, if so, there's something seriously wrong with the the extended chargen for navy careers, starting with the fact that most of those skills are "locked" behind departments that would require Cross Training assignments in order to obtain them.
And then there's the Legends of Galactic Heroes perspective on things like this question.
The senior and flag rank command personnel don't NEED to be qualified in EVERY aspect of shipboard goings-on ... but they DO need subordinates who are (bridge officers, department staff, advisors, etc.) who are trained and qualified in all of those specialties. What the senior and flag rank command personnel need to specialize in is TACTICS (fleet and ship), along with admin, while leaving the departmental specialties to subordinates.
I tend to avoid most of the Third Imperium ... so my NOBLES play a smaller part on a smaller stage (more like the so-called "1%").
However, IF I WERE to attempt a Traveller TL 15, Third Imperium true "NOBILITY" ...
The TRUE NOBILITY are IMMORTAL and have learned to hold onto their power.
However, IF I WERE to attempt a Traveller TL 15, Third Imperium true "NOBILITY" ...
They should be played more like the LICH of the old D&D 1ed./2edition. A true power wielding, subsector/megacorp ruling NOBLEMAN employed anti-aging drugs to extend their physical life until their mortal husk was more dead than alive, then replaced organic parts with cybernetic until the brain itself was the only remaining "human" part. Then they transferred their consciousness to a super-computer and operate an advanced biological/cybernetic shell as a remote to allow them to be places for the sake of appearances. A TRUE GOVERNING NOBLEMAN (a Duke) is a non-human sentience existing and thriving in an ARTIFICIAL REALITY that dominates the science, culture and economy of a TL 13-15 Interstellar Society [Holographic, early AI, Neural Interfaces, Skill & Memory chips]. This being has CENTURIES of experiences and beyond DNI interface with all information. They think, dream, plan and execute plans on unimaginable levels ... unconcerned with the details of day-to-day life that they can barely remember. Their goals are surviving and obtaining the HOLY GRAIL future technology that will change everything for them. TL 16-18 is the promise of unlimited energy and the ability to convert the holographic reality into reshaping physical reality ... matter to energy to matter. Whatever you can THINK can become reality. That means a new body for them ... a perfect body ... an omnipotent body. The IMPERIUM and its worlds and citizens and mega-corporations and research and economy are all just the MEANS to achieve an ENDS mere mortals cannot comprehend.
The TRUE NOBILITY are IMMORTAL and have learned to hold onto their power.
The Line/Staff distinction (and in theory Unrestricted Line/Restricted Line/Staff & LDO) is still present in the US.
About a third or fourth of Admirals are not line officers, tho' their authority once they get their congressionally approved admiralty commission is technically free of the UL/RL/S/LDO distinctions, they do still wear their specialty marks, and are not usually in the line of command.
Even within the line branch, there are several specialties, most notably flight vs deck vs sub.
Most squadron commodores these days are actually captains or commanders; some are rear admiral lower half (For most of the 20th and all of the 21st century so far, Commodore is a position in the USN, not a rank. The Commodore of the US Naval Academy is often a RALH, but not always. Almost all of them are also Commanding officers of their flagship. Commodore was a rank in the 19th C, most of WW I, half of WW II, and two years in the 1980's.)
Battlegroup commanders are usually ship-drivers or fighter pilots. The official policy is to put carrier BGs under pilots, and surface fleet under ship drivers.
Here's the thing: while most line officers are in fact trained in handling ships from the wheel, the actual helm operators are usually ratings or junior enlisted - apprentice or able... the officer is hands-off, calling out the orders to the helmsman, and the order being echoed. By the time they're commanding a ship, they're about to push pilot off their list in favor of ship tactics and administration... Likewise, once they switch from CAG to CO-CVBG, whether captain or rear admiral (either half), are no longer required to maintain their flight quals... but from what I've heard, almost all do... if the flight surgeon lets them. It's unlikely that CNO is going to be a flyboy, but thats simply a numbers game - there are many more ship drivers. And that Second Class is going to be more technically proficient at actually brining it to course... but the line officer on the bridge is the one who knows where the ship needs to go... in theory. So, ship tactics and/or fleet tactics, not pilot.
Most of the Rear Admirals Lower Half have 18-24 years in at selection, plus college time, plus often a leave of absence for a graduate degree... and so are mid 40's to mid 50's.
As for Traveller
It's a safe bet that admirals in the line branch will be able to do one or more of pilot, astrogate, issue clear tactical orders (ship tactics), or formation orders (Fleet Tactics)... but most of them will be pilot 0 by the time they get done with that long career...
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Unpaid internships are hiring discrimination filters for socioeconomic status.
It's a way to get a job through demonstrating that you do not need that job (or any job, for that matter).
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Badenov
SOC-12
Short answer: Yes. Maybe not Steward, though they do need to know enough of the supply system to approve the tasks done in their division when it involves ordering replacement parts, though otherwise supply (including repair parts control, food service, disbursing, and things like the ship's barber shop) and medical are their own promotion ladders and don't graduate to ship command (Line/staff thing that Aramis mentions).
So the way the US Navy works, at least, is that line officers do get tours in most of those departments and need to know at least the basics of most of those skills to get the nod to do an XO tour. They need subordinates that know what to do also, but they need to know, so they can correct their subordinates if the need arises, and so they know the procedures that get done when they give a command. So the cross training as an exceptional thing and locked departments are not how RL works because cross-training is important. If you die, there needs to be someone who can fill in at your job. I don't know how that extended chargen works, but it definitely sounds like it doesn't work like RL works.
When I gen a senior officer NPC, I always aim for breadth of qualification rather than pumping one or another skill as high as I can go. If one skill is missing, it's a tour the officer hasn't had yet, or if they're senior, pulled a scam to get command-qualified without it. It's not like the system is perfect, and people get qualified without having the skills all the time, but it's not supposed to work that way, and .
100% agree.
I disagree with pilot 0 just because while they don't normally have their hands on the helm, they have to give precise and exact commands at the right time to make things happen. The ability to press the buttons is not nearly as important as what buttons in what combination will make a 20,000T ship do what you want. With ship tactics on top of that gained in your XO or CO tour, and fleet tactics in your Commodore tour.
So, as with most fictional depictions of the military, that's not how RL works. In my experience, Naval officers are trained in all aspects of shipboard goings-on. Not to the level that they could stand in for a technician and do that job, but they knew how everything fit together and what boxes did what and how it's all used. I used to be constantly surprised by officers actually understanding complicated technical concepts, but it happed often enough that I realized that most of them know what's going on and how things work.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
You could purchase a naval commission, but you started off as either a midshipman or ensign. That is, you're an officer in training and know little or nothing. It is much the same in the army or marines. As a very junior officer your major task is to set an example for the men and die in a heroic manner leading them in battle. So long as you can do that, you're good. If you want to move up, you prove yourself at least somewhat competent at the job as well.
In terms of Traveller, if you get to senior rank without much in the way of combat or ship handling skills, I take that to mean you're the equivalent of a "Major Blimp" or some other form of paper-pushing, backwater, bureaucratic desk jockey. If you look at it, Nixon went from being a paper-pushing supply officer, albeit a pretty good one, to being President. JFK was a PT boat commander who got his first command sunk without firing a shot in return but rose to high political office.
The British crown today sends male heirs to the throne--or potential ones--into the service where they basically do some not too dangerous stuff as an officer, get a bunch of medals, and then have some claim to heroic military service.
So, I can see some character starting out as a noble being put into naval service as an officer, even though by the rules they don't really qualify, because they're there to "ticket punch."
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
Here's one from my own military career on this:
I was cross-assigned to an Army artillery unit for a bit--no, don't ask how and it really isn't important. As, at the time an E-6 Navy Petty Officer, I was with a particular battery of the battalion. They moved firing positions, and when they arrived at the new one the field telephone system between the guns and the battery FC track didn't work for all the guns. I volunteered to figure out the problem.
It was in a patch box where one of the connections was broken and it was soldered. The Army NCO with me said we needed another box. I said I could fix the one we had. Because it was a serious issue, some Captain showed up asking about the problem. I told him I needed a cigarette lighter, and we were trying to find one. He got the lighter for me, and with my trusty TL 29 pocket knife
and the lighter I soldered the connection back in place and everything worked. The Captain told me that was brilliant and asked if I had gone to trade school or something. I told him I'd done the Navy nuclear power program (get your associate's in nuclear engineering in 6 months!) and had two BS degrees. He was utterly shocked and wondered why I wasn't an officer...
casquilho
SOC-13
Just to be clear, my original post was meant to be a joke. But your point is well taken, Bureaucracy and Business would be the new place to send lower level children.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
Or, off to the military to some far-flung post well away from the 3I where they can't be an embarrassment to the family name. There, they indulge in garrison duty and the officer's mess...Just to be clear, my original post was meant to be a joke. But your point is well taken, Bureaucracy and Business would be the new place to send lower level children.
casquilho
SOC-13
Ah, the original post already listed the military as the second child.
But yes, the military was (is?) a great place to dump the backup children.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
No, the second child is a backup, just in case... The second cousins and illegitimate ones go to the military where they can't embarrass the family name...Ah, the original post already listed the military as the second child.
But yes, the military was (is?) a great place to dump the backup children.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I started hearing complaints about that.
Apparently, only if you can afford to go unpaid for a period of time, usually in a rather expensive part of town.
The point being networking, for the participant, and unpaid labour, for the corporation.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
1. Depending how a paramilitary force is structured, you could have owner onboard.
2. Royal Artillery required some competence.
3. And the Royal Engineers.
4. Midshipmanships tended to require some nepotism or patronage.
5. One aspect that may be overlooked, in Traveller, is how many officer slots per rank/tier are available in the Navy, or any Navy, per annum, or per four years.
6. How many Midshipmen would they accept, per annum?
But in the Army (historically) you could originally purchase a commission at any Company/Regimental Rank w/o prior experience, as long as you had the finances. So a well-off gentleman could purchase a commission for Ensign/Cornet, Lieutenant, Captain (or Captain-Lieutenant in the Colonel's Company), Sergeant-Major (later shortened to Major), Lieutenant Colonel or Colonel (who was generally the one who raised the regiment with permission, or sold his commission to a successor, as often did less-senior officers). Generals were appointed ad-hoc from the body of Colonels as necessary, who were normally absentee from their Regiments at any rate, leaving their Regiments in the hands of their Lieutenant Colonels, and the Colonel's Company under the command of a second Senior Lieutenant known as a "Captain-Lieutenant" in his absence. No rising thru the ranks was required.
During the English Civil War, this gave some pretty bad officers in some cases, but also resulted in some great officers, if they were men of prior or foreign battlefield experience (such as Lord Leven and Prince Rupert).
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I'm not sure how far the English establishment was influenced by continental developments.
But the Crown could issue warrants for the establishment of paid companies, rather than levies, most famously for yeoman archers, the technical term appears to be contracted indentures.
There is that tension between professionalism, narcissism, capitalism, taxation, control, and security.
But the Crown could issue warrants for the establishment of paid companies, rather than levies, most famously for yeoman archers, the technical term appears to be contracted indentures.
There is that tension between professionalism, narcissism, capitalism, taxation, control, and security.
I'm afraid I disagree about this...
Of course, a 3I skipper needs to know different things than one did in 1700, but he has heavy computer help, where the 1700 one had only his head and those of his men.
Not necessarly…
(S)he must know to lead people (leadership, ship/fleet tactics), probably regulations and diplomacy (admin, liaison) and something about the ship skills, but he would probably have a specialty or two, and trust the line and crew to know their jobs.
The duty of a skipper (or a flag officer) is not to pilot the ship (at least in big ships), not to navigate it, but to coordinate the efforts of the rest of the crew, and probably to act as Imperial representative while he’s out of touch of higher command (hence I give importance to Admin and Liaison).
I’d even say being too good a pilot (to give an example) may distract him from his main duty: commanding. I’d prefer a skipper with Ship Tactics 3 than one with Pilot 3.
Nonetheless, having a minimal knowledge of the basic ship skills doesn’t hurt either, as long as he understands which one his main duty is.
Badenov
SOC-12
He has computer help, but he doesn't have time to read a tutorial on evasive maneuvers when the enemy is lining up their spinal mounts. Being able to make the right decision on the spur of the moment may be the difference between victory and death.
I agree, by the time you get to captain, the leadership and fleet tactics are the skills you bring to a fight. But knowing the other skills will give you so much more insight into how prepared your ship is for any action. Officers trusting enlisted to know their jobs? Not in my Navy. There's a whole subset of the maintenance procedures relating to spot checks where some division officer or department head will stand over the technician's shoulder and verify they did what they were supposed to do and did it right. Knowing all the other jobs means being able to evaluate the results of your crews performance in a drill and identify which areas need work. The time to find out your Gunnery officer has been phoning it in is not in the middle of a battle.
I agree. But if the navigator screws up and the ship misjumps (or collides with another ship), it's the skipper that take the heat. The Navigator gets the ax as well for a misjump, of course, but unless the skipper has connections, his career is done. This may have changed a bit in recent years, but traditionally, everything that happens on a ship is the skipper's ultimate responsibility. In 2017, when 2 ships got into different collisions in the west Pacific, the 7th Fleet commander, a 3-star admiral, got relieved a few weeks before his planned retirement date. The CO and XO on both ships both got relieved as well, according to wikipedia, and things rolled downhill, as they will.
Bottom line: as skipper, it's not your job to do everything, but it's your responsibility that everything gets done right. Anyone's failing is a mark against you.
I absolutely would as well. Pilot 3 is wildly unlikely for a traditional officer in any event, but I wouldn't mind seeing it in a conning officer, and it can fade back to 1 when the skills are no longer being honed daily when they move on to their next rotation.
So one of the conceits of Traveller chargen is that your character isn't marking down skills gained in their career, but what skills were retained by the time you leave your career. So I'd consider an officer without one of the necessary skills to simply have forgotten it, or lost the edge, in the course of their career. Maybe your conning officer was so squared away that you never needed to correct or double-check them, and got out of the habit of doing so.
Krikkitone
SOC-12
I think you show why there is a strong stigma against Cybernetics and “Robots as Sophonts” (and Anagathics for Nobles) in the Third Imperium.
By ensuring that the ruler has an eventually fallible biological body+mind, they keep that situation from happening (because having the rulers both so drastically different from the populace AND never replaced would be very bad)
It’s slightly different if Everyone is doing that… if a significant % of the population is transsophonting into artificial beings at TL 13-16 then nobles will just be slightly ahead of the curve.
... and yet, everything I mentioned is available in Traveller CANON. So it is unreasonable to assume that a wealthy non-noble PLAYER could do that and live forever, but an NPC at TL 15, SOC 15 would never think of such a thing and just quietly die. Thus we have the THEATRE of "pseudo-biological robots" as "slave" unit Nobles aging and dying and being replaced as the disembodied "master unit" continues on with a new puppet. [And everyone publicly denounces "cybernetics" and "Anagathics" since those that already had them no longer need them and can afford to pull up the ladder behind themselves.]
One need look no further than Machiavelli to see what a NOBILITY is willing to do, or the Renaissance and Byzantine history to see what they actually did do. Why would people of power in the Far Future suddenly become so much "kinder and gentler"?
