Does the new edition need complimentary software?
- Thread starter Berg
- Start date
Have whomever coded the MT CG Web Page do the HTML/Javascript for it... that was awesome, truly multi-platform, and very well done.
Realistically, anything included really should be either Java, HTML+Javascript+JPEG/GIF/PNG, Python, Word, Excell, or PP. Anything in binary coded stuff immediately excludes almost all the mac/linux/wierdness-legacy-os's/future-os's
Realistically, anything included really should be either Java, HTML+Javascript+JPEG/GIF/PNG, Python, Word, Excell, or PP. Anything in binary coded stuff immediately excludes almost all the mac/linux/wierdness-legacy-os's/future-os's
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Oh yes, it needs to run in a browser (so Java or Javascript) - everybody has one of those. Lets exclude all the non-W3 stuff (like ActiveX) from M$, though.
If its done well, Excel and Word can import most other formats we've mentioned. (And, a good transformation stylesheet can turn XML into comma delimited/tab-delimited/whatever pretty easily.)
Only possible "problem": what about rights management? If it's browser-based, it will be very portable (read: copyable) by definition. I would hate to have folks (including me or not) do the work, sell 10 copies, then no more as everybody is copying it to their buddies' machines.
Is there (besides honor system) any way to minimize that?
If its done well, Excel and Word can import most other formats we've mentioned. (And, a good transformation stylesheet can turn XML into comma delimited/tab-delimited/whatever pretty easily.)
Only possible "problem": what about rights management? If it's browser-based, it will be very portable (read: copyable) by definition. I would hate to have folks (including me or not) do the work, sell 10 copies, then no more as everybody is copying it to their buddies' machines.
Is there (besides honor system) any way to minimize that?
jfetters
SOC-14 1K
And that is exactly the main problem, Fritz.
How do you make something easily multi-platform without giving it away?
Realistically, there would be some amount of piracy of the solution anyway, but how can that be more manageable?
I'm not sure that it can, aside from making PC and Mac versions, or do one then run an emulator.
Of course, they could be developed as utilities with no implied support, that are intended as freeware from the get-go.
How do you make something easily multi-platform without giving it away?
Realistically, there would be some amount of piracy of the solution anyway, but how can that be more manageable?
I'm not sure that it can, aside from making PC and Mac versions, or do one then run an emulator.
Of course, they could be developed as utilities with no implied support, that are intended as freeware from the get-go.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
That would be one reason to give them away with the original book(s) - they would end up being shared and might increase the number of books sold.
daltoncalford
SOC-12
You can make a program multi-platform by programing it in a multi-platform language.
I am not advocating Java, as it is the slowest, most bloated, pile of......
ok, calming down now...
There are various good, fast languages that have good and bad points.
perl, you need a perl interpreter and the appropriate libraries.
python - see perl.
java - see above.
Ajax with an active apache server controlling it - probly the best but would need a centralized server.
Pascal - I would recomend this as the best overall method. Anything you write can run on Windows (all versions) Mac, linux, bsd, gameboy, openzaurus, xbox and a few other ports.....
It is a standalone compiler that you specify the target platform and it produces a executable to run on it.
It is free, as is all the documentation.
It has a visual developement language. (drag and drop visual design)
Did I mention it is free.
www.freepascal.org
lazarus.freepascal.org
If you want some software written, I can probly knock it off quickly for you (won't be preaty, but it will be functional).
best regards
Dalton
I am not advocating Java, as it is the slowest, most bloated, pile of......
ok, calming down now...
There are various good, fast languages that have good and bad points.
perl, you need a perl interpreter and the appropriate libraries.
python - see perl.
java - see above.
Ajax with an active apache server controlling it - probly the best but would need a centralized server.
Pascal - I would recomend this as the best overall method. Anything you write can run on Windows (all versions) Mac, linux, bsd, gameboy, openzaurus, xbox and a few other ports.....
It is a standalone compiler that you specify the target platform and it produces a executable to run on it.
It is free, as is all the documentation.
It has a visual developement language. (drag and drop visual design)
Did I mention it is free.
www.freepascal.org
lazarus.freepascal.org
If you want some software written, I can probly knock it off quickly for you (won't be preaty, but it will be functional).
best regards
Dalton
daltoncalford
SOC-12
Depends upon what version, libs, and support utilities you decide to install.
Python, being an opensource program, has as many different 'flavours' as linux.
Last time I checked, there where a few forks of the primary tree in full bloom as well.
Python, being an opensource program, has as many different 'flavours' as linux.
Last time I checked, there where a few forks of the primary tree in full bloom as well.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
The only problem with that is it doesn't provide a browser-based solution. The only way I can see to provide a truly platform-independent method is if it resides in a browser. (It also helps that most browsers will display XML docs properly.)
daltoncalford
SOC-12
Not nessarily so.
You can have a browser call a command line program that outputs html, after all that is what a cgi is.
The pascal/perl/python/php4/whatever program can use the browser as a user interface.
It all depends upon the design criteria.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
How would that work on a single machine, Dalton? (There not being a "server" to run the cgi.)
daltoncalford
SOC-12
You have to play with mime types and that opens up security issues.....
It is easier with a server, and there are some small local ones available. But, with any of these 'solutions' you still need a native executable.
That means, you need a 'browser' for javascript interpretation or JVM for java, or a python/perl interpretor, or......
Or, you can create a standalone executable that does not need any libraries, that you can copy onto a machine and run.
If you use a cross platform compiler, you can use the same source code regardless of the target platform.
So, write your program once, and compile it for each supported platform.
That is why we use the lazarus/freepascal platform at the office.
You can do the same with the appropriate libraries and GCC or ICC but, you get some problems with big/little endedness and integer sizes depending upon the libraries and compiler.
best regards
Dalton
It is easier with a server, and there are some small local ones available. But, with any of these 'solutions' you still need a native executable.
That means, you need a 'browser' for javascript interpretation or JVM for java, or a python/perl interpretor, or......
Or, you can create a standalone executable that does not need any libraries, that you can copy onto a machine and run.
If you use a cross platform compiler, you can use the same source code regardless of the target platform.
So, write your program once, and compile it for each supported platform.
That is why we use the lazarus/freepascal platform at the office.
You can do the same with the appropriate libraries and GCC or ICC but, you get some problems with big/little endedness and integer sizes depending upon the libraries and compiler.
best regards
Dalton
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Dalton, the reason for Java (or Javascript) is that every browser has a built-in compiler. Nothing extra to load/install/know how to operate.
daltoncalford
SOC-12
Yes, and no.
For example, java, has two different, and in many ways, incompatable versions. The MS version has been discontinued, but, was the default version on many of the computers out there. If you make a java program, you need to ensure that the code is compatable with the particular JVM the client has.
Java 1.1, Java 1.2.....etc.
As for javascript, it comes down to COM level compatability. IE does not conform to the W3C web standards and does not render html properly. Unfortunately, since MS ships ie with all versions of windows, people think that IE is the standard. This causes problems with many aspects of frames, CSS, layers, aspect ratio's and other small nuisences that cause a developer to wake up in the middle of the night screaming. IE will even render knowingly broken html, happily fixing missing end tags and wrongly formated tables....even when that is NOT what the developer wanted.
Javascript, depending upon the browser, has different memory configurations that can cause execution problems and speed slowdowns depending upon the complexity of the code (there are whole sections of documentation on how to work in a ajax app with the different browsers).
It is far from 'one source, compile for target' as there are multiple, imcompatible targets.
With simple HTML and Javascript, you have some power and flexibility. With advanced features, that would be wanted by anyone who is going to use the program (such as formated output, with interactive design criteria) you get into ALOT of hassles that can dominate the design teams time without actually having the project progress.
The 'built in' 'compiler' is either a plugin or loadable module that has different interfaces depending upon the underlying rendaring engine. KDE's konquorer interface is very different than Opera let alone using E17's embedded libs.
The browser wars are far from over with Firefox hitting the 25% saturation mark, up from 2% just 8 months ago.
Combine that with MS having to rewrite their entire internal object embedding model due to the patent lawsuit they lost a few months back and you are entering a realm of imcompatible browsers that are not even compatable between versions.
If you want a project to be completed and get out the door, you need a dev platform a little more stable from a dev standpoint.
just my humble opinion.
best regards
Dalton
For example, java, has two different, and in many ways, incompatable versions. The MS version has been discontinued, but, was the default version on many of the computers out there. If you make a java program, you need to ensure that the code is compatable with the particular JVM the client has.
Java 1.1, Java 1.2.....etc.
As for javascript, it comes down to COM level compatability. IE does not conform to the W3C web standards and does not render html properly. Unfortunately, since MS ships ie with all versions of windows, people think that IE is the standard. This causes problems with many aspects of frames, CSS, layers, aspect ratio's and other small nuisences that cause a developer to wake up in the middle of the night screaming. IE will even render knowingly broken html, happily fixing missing end tags and wrongly formated tables....even when that is NOT what the developer wanted.
Javascript, depending upon the browser, has different memory configurations that can cause execution problems and speed slowdowns depending upon the complexity of the code (there are whole sections of documentation on how to work in a ajax app with the different browsers).
It is far from 'one source, compile for target' as there are multiple, imcompatible targets.
With simple HTML and Javascript, you have some power and flexibility. With advanced features, that would be wanted by anyone who is going to use the program (such as formated output, with interactive design criteria) you get into ALOT of hassles that can dominate the design teams time without actually having the project progress.
The 'built in' 'compiler' is either a plugin or loadable module that has different interfaces depending upon the underlying rendaring engine. KDE's konquorer interface is very different than Opera let alone using E17's embedded libs.
The browser wars are far from over with Firefox hitting the 25% saturation mark, up from 2% just 8 months ago.
Combine that with MS having to rewrite their entire internal object embedding model due to the patent lawsuit they lost a few months back and you are entering a realm of imcompatible browsers that are not even compatable between versions.
If you want a project to be completed and get out the door, you need a dev platform a little more stable from a dev standpoint.
just my humble opinion.
best regards
Dalton
daltoncalford
SOC-12
In case anybody is wondering, I have done a bit of coding over the years....
Do a google search on 'Dalton Calford Firebird Interbase' and that will show you a bit about what I have been up to, not including the linux kernel stuff.
Trust me on this, Web interfaces are definately the future, but, the work, dev time and skill set is a bit above the average coder if you want it done right.
best regards
Dalton
Do a google search on 'Dalton Calford Firebird Interbase' and that will show you a bit about what I have been up to, not including the linux kernel stuff.
Trust me on this, Web interfaces are definately the future, but, the work, dev time and skill set is a bit above the average coder if you want it done right.
best regards
Dalton
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
And, Dalton, I explicitly said to ignore IE - its not just a pet peeve, but a fundamental problem. But, I also know that means the sky is not the same color in my world....
I don't know just how much coding will be done on this - chargen (if done well in the game) should be a fairly simple bit of code. Pretty much anything that runs like CT's basic random chargen/worldgen should be pretty easy. (I would do it, but I can't wrap my head around Java lately, plus RL.)
I don't know just how much coding will be done on this - chargen (if done well in the game) should be a fairly simple bit of code. Pretty much anything that runs like CT's basic random chargen/worldgen should be pretty easy. (I would do it, but I can't wrap my head around Java lately, plus RL.)
daltoncalford
SOC-12
I understand completely. I am fighting a battle with a MSCE who believes that Bill is the second coming. He actually was suggesting that we should flip our linux servers (real-time phone switches) over to XP....under the argument that it is a standard.Originally posted by Fritz88:
And, Dalton, I explicitly said to ignore IE - its not just a pet peeve, but a fundamental problem. But, I also know that means the sky is not the same color in my world....
I don't know just how much coding will be done on this - chargen (if done well in the game) should be a fairly simple bit of code. Pretty much anything that runs like CT's basic random chargen/worldgen should be pretty easy. (I would do it, but I can't wrap my head around Java lately, plus RL.)
But, MS aside, even non MS browsers have problems with DCOM and memory management.
I wish it was different.
I dumped Java about 5 years ago as a useless platform and I view mono and .net as extensions of the same flawed thinking. But, I must see a different colour of sky as well.
Over the years, I have worked in Cobal, Hypo, Forth, Fortran, Pascal, Basic, Prolog, C, C++, Lisp, Java, Smalltalk, Javascript and a few that I have totally forgotten. Now, in my later years (I am rapidly coming up on the ancient age of 40) I have a bunch of University grads who could not create a decent make file, argue with me about software. Good thing I am the one who gives them their employee review.
I have had a bad day.
Time to go play some SST and blow off some steam.
best regards
Dalton
