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Duchy navies

rancke

Absent Friend
In the spirit of making the imperium as versatile a setting as possible, here's my suggestion for subsector navies:

They're actually duchy navies. Each duchy has one. Subsectors that are part of another duchy does not have one of their own. However, since most duchies covers exactly one subsector, the terms have become synonymous. (This is distinct from the term 'subsector fleet', which really is a fleet that covers a subsector).

They're extremely diverse. You have the Imperial Navy, charged with defending the Imperium from outside aggression, and you have the planetary navies, raised by the member worlds to defend each individual world/system. The duchy navies fill in the crack between the two. Each duke has a budget, usually a set percentage of the Imperial revenues from his duchy. The exact percentage depends on historcal factors, and what tasks the Emperor expects the duke to carry out. The duchy navy has whatever ships the duke feels he needs badly enough that he's willing to pay for it out of his inadequate budget[1]. So in one duchy it could be a light cruiser outfitted more like a yacht than a fighting ship and a handful of couriers; in another it could be several full cruiser squadrons, or even battleship squadrons, complete with escorts, destroyers, scouts, couriers, tankers, etc..

In short, a GM (or author) can tailor a duchy navy to fit whatever he wants the setting to be.


[1] No matter what it is, a budget is always inadequate to pay for everything you feel you need ;).


Hans
 
I pretty much follow that scheme myself. For me, the Subsector Duke has a job to perform, a task which is imposed upon him based upon his office held as Duke. For me, the Duke is responsible for the security of his area of operations, as well as insuring that the worlds toe the line of Imperial desire, and that no one world gets out of line with another to the point where its independent planetary governments start going at it hammer and tong because of issues that would have led to war absent the Imperium's existence.

GRAND FLEET makes sense to me in a large respect primarily because of the material in HIGH GUARD. Truth is however, that not all Duchies are created Equal, and as such, it seems to me that the buget constraints of one Duchy might not be the same as those found in a more affluent duchy elsewhere. It also seems to me, that in an effort to appeal to the self-interest of the man who administers to the Duchy, that he be given power not only on a political level, or miltiary level, but also at the administrative and/or economic level.

One has to wonder for example, whether or not member worlds can go to war against each other. If they cannot, how can they justify the creation and maintenance of a planetary fleet? If wars are fought by men, what keeps the Duke of a subsector from declaring war against another Duke? We have canon material depicting the actions of Dulinor's assassination of the Emperor to the point where he can attempt to take the throne for himself. If this happens at the higher levels of government, why doesn't it happen at the lower levels of government? There are so many different possible takes on the Imperium, so much material not filled in, that GM's are in a sense, obligated to determine what is or is not important to their depictation of the Third Imperium and its military, and take it from there.

I digress however. The concept of the Duchy navy implies a duchy government, which in turn implies other things. However, HIGH GUARD implied certain things despite it not detailing such things when it discussed the existence of the planetary navy, subsector navy, and imperial navy. Implications however, are not the same as outright assertions of fact (so to speak).
 
For me, the Duke is responsible for the security of his area of operations, as well as insuring that the worlds toe the line of Imperial desire, and that no one world gets out of line with another to the point where its independent planetary governments start going at it hammer and tong because of issues that would have led to war absent the Imperium's existence.

I agree and disagree with your point. It was made clear in TAS News Feeds by GDW that Nobility were intrisically involved in massaging Flash points and potential combatants to working together. This does not require or even need Naval support so I disagree with this being joined to a discussion of fleet ownership except at the extreme levels. A CT Canon example of the extreme level would be the Porozlo(Rhylanor) System and their use of a planetary navy to prey on the merchant fleets of neighboring systems. As a result, the Imperium stepped in and squashed fleet and placed on that system a limit of being unable to own warships. Here the situation is so exteme that non-IN warships would be needed long term and would be squadrons of ships owned/controlled by local Dukes, Counts and possibly effected Marquees. So the Porozlo Squadrons(represented in the FFW boardgame) would have major capital ships owned by Duke Rhylanor(note, this is a Heraldic Title, not an attempt to mis-name Leonard, Duke of Rhylanor) supported by lessor ships from the personal navies of Count Jae Tellona and the planetary navies(if they exist IYTU) of the Systems Belizo, Gileden, Fulacin(Vacent: 1107) and Tureded. IMTU, these ships are what considered the "Colonial" fleet in the region(also as supported in the board game Fifth Frontier War). They would, as well as adding to a Nobile's "bargoning strength" enhance and fill in for the IN. Like the Coast Guard and the Naval Reserves in the US Armed Forces, these lesser/older ships would handle lower priority or more local missions with locally harbored resources. They also fill in the longer term missions such as "drift anti-pirate patrols" and the like.

GRAND FLEET makes sense to me in a large respect primarily because of the material in HIGH GUARD. Truth is however, that not all Duchies are created Equal, and as such, it seems to me that the buget constraints of one Duchy might not be the same as those found in a more affluent duchy elsewhere.

This is clearly in Canon with examples such the Glisten Duchy, who's Duchess is tasked with overseeing the improvment of conditions in Dist. 268. So a major slice of the economic pie for Imp activities would accrue to that Duchess/Duchey with permission, From the Emperor himself, to expand her military to support Client States in the area(Collace, Tarsus, etc...), face down opponents(Trexalon) or maintain expected future boarders with growing alien polities(The Mewey). The Duchy of Glisten has florished under an increased role as Guardian of Dist. 268 where the Duchies Lanth and Lunion see more of their money funnelled directly to regional Imp Navy fleets. This may change if the Emperor designates one or the other Duke as admin for the Border Worlds. Such a decision would route economic traffic through the selected Duke's Court. To better see this, I recommend reading the histories of the various courts and gentileman criminals, of Europe.

It also seems to me, that in an effort to appeal to the self-interest of the man who administers to the Duchy, that he be given power not only on a political level, or miltiary level, but also at the administrative and/or economic level.

Interesting but short on one level. The use of power need not be even in all types. An Imp Governor needs diplomatic might but no military power at all. They back by the might of the Imp Navy. Said Governor does not have power over the Navy but can call on them as needed and answer to the Emperor afterwards to justify it. So the Governor is a Diplomatic Power in the area with administartive power to handle oversight of Imperial laws placed on the World Government(a 100% seperate gov't entity...remember, The Imperium owns the space, not the planet.). So the member government deals with the Imperial Governor regarding Imperial law, and that world's access to space and interstellar trade. That Governor is an admiinstrative and diplomatic entity much like the "Customs House" in Colonial America.

One has to wonder for example, whether or not member worlds can go to war against each other. If they cannot, how can they justify the creation and maintenance of a planetary fleet? If wars are fought by men, what keeps the Duke of a subsector from declaring war against another Duke? We have canon material depicting the actions of Dulinor's assassination of the Emperor to the point where he can attempt to take the throne for himself. If this happens at the higher levels of government, why doesn't it happen at the lower levels of government?

You are missing a function of Feudal government. The Imperium is one big feudal hierarchy. Dulinor attempted his attack in MegaTraveller because he was beheading the top and EVERYONE would be his vassel as Emperor(thanks to Olav I, assassination is a legitimate path to become Emperor). So there is no one above Emperor to punish him when he kills Strephon. But every Duke is vassel to the Emperor. So say Duke Lanth gets the grant to administer the Border Worlds. Duke Lunion masses his fleets and squadrons of supporters and attacks Lanth. He may win against Lanth, but now stands in Strephon's judgement.
Remember something very key, Duke Lunion holds the system and duchy in fief from Strephon BUT that is not related to the world government. Duke Lunion can have his title, feifs and Duchy stripped away despite being leader of the Lunion world government. All his possessions as Duke would be removed and awarded to someone else at the gunpoint of the Imperial Navy. But they'd remain King of Lunion and control the world. And a new Duke who would own and live in the Duke's palace and now have control of the Duchy and what military force it owns while Strephon restores(or also replaces) the Lanth Duke.
It is easy to knock off the top if you can control the rest. It is harder to war in the middle levels when there is a boss above you to act. And the further down from the Iridum Throne you go, the more local bosses there are to stop or punish you. A local Baron warring against his neighbor would have to worry about reactions from the Local Duke/Duchess, the Subsector Duke/Duchess, the Subsector Senate AND the Imperial Navy before having to worry about what the Emperor might say in a year or so...

There are so many different possible takes on the Imperium, so much material not filled in, that GM's are in a sense, obligated to determine what is or is not important to their depictation of the Third Imperium and its military, and take it from there.

Much of what you ssem to be missing can be found in earth's own history from the Middle Ages and The Renaissance. There is material enough in the history of the many monarchies that have(and still do) existed. Much like you can use the current Peerage of England as a sort of guide to the structur of local nobility on any world(as modified on a percentage basis by population) in the Imperium, so you can look at the court intrigues and histories to see what being a nobleman is like. Everything from the politically powerless nobles of Louis XIV(France) to the Politically entrenched Nobility of the Russian Courts pryor to Peter the Great. Indeed, in American history before the revolution you have a great many Lords representing fiefdoms in "The Colonies" who did so completely from England as many Marquiees do from the Imperial Moot in the Third Imperium! The parallels are all there and the historys tell you how it all worked(there is a reason that GDW modeled Imperial Nobility on the Victorian Nobility. They ruled much of the world with or without armies, naavies or real local political power assigned to them. The power was always there, as well as the need to justify their actions later, but they did not often have assigned control in and of themselves.

I digress however. The concept of the Duchy navy implies a duchy government, which in turn implies other things. However, HIGH GUARD implied certain things despite it not detailing such things when it discussed the existence of the planetary navy, subsector navy, and imperial navy. Implications however, are not the same as outright assertions of fact (so to speak).

Ultimatly, one must draw from High Guard that any world or other polity that can afford one or more warships to protect their insterests can have said warships...so long as they do not violate the interests and laws of The Third Imperium. That is because once they leave their own atmospheres, they have left their property and are now in Imperial owned space. This results in canon examples like Porozlo, who's attacks on trade brought down the wrath of the Imperial Navy followed by that of the Iridium Throne itself. A Duke/Duchess may have ownership of trade lanes given them as a fiefdom with the understanding they will use the moneis raised from that ownership to create a small fleet of anti-pirate forces to protect trade in that lane(self serving as well as Empire serving) but that Fiefdom(and those forces) can be stripped away at the whim of the current Emperor/Empress as these are..ultimately...the property of the Throne.

I advise you to read a lot more about medieval Europe as you will see many of the bits you are missing implicit in those histories.

Marc
 
Canonical statements notwithstanding, the Imperium is not a feudal system. It's an autocracy with pseudo-feudal trimmings. Lesser nobles do not swear fealthy to their superiors, they merely report to them. And they are appointed by the Emperor, not by the superior. In fact, except for statements about this noble being a vassal of that noble, there is very little feudal about the setup. It's more like the British or Spanish empires with hereditary governors.



Hans
 
The impression I gained is that Subsector navies were part of the Imperial Navy under the authority of the dukes and archdukes. The indications from 5th Frontier War were that the subsector navies consisted of ships based upon their role in the defense of the Imperium.

There are scattered indications that various Dukes and Archdukes had their own personal fleets (Margret had one that was mentioned a few times in TNE for instance) which were not part of the Imperial Navy structure but created to fill the needs of the duke. These seem to have been funded with the household funds instead of the Ducal administrative budget.
 
Would the Emperor allow a duke to establish a rival military organization to his own, using funds and resources that should be his to command?

Would the Emperor allow a duke to use his independent fleet to influence, harass, or threaten his neighbors?

Since this isn't a feudal empire and fealty is not sworn, do the house fleets owe any allegiance or recognize the authority of the Emperor?

Does the IN have the horsepower in any given sector to dispatch with a house fleet?

It seems very Dune-ish; is the Imperium really so unstable that individual dukes take matters into their own hands?

Just questions, don't want to start a tussle, Hans ;)
 
Canonical statements notwithstanding, the Imperium is not a feudal system. It's an autocracy with pseudo-feudal trimmings. Lesser nobles do not swear fealthy to their superiors, they merely report to them. And they are appointed by the Emperor, not by the superior. In fact, except for statements about this noble being a vassal of that noble, there is very little feudal about the setup. It's more like the British or Spanish empires with hereditary governors.

Hans

With the exception that Sector Dukes and Domain Archdukes can make Baronets and knights.
 
Would the Emperor allow a duke to establish a rival military organization to his own, using funds and resources that should be his to command?
Royal governors were allowed to raise ships and troops of their own. They also had the authority to command royal troops stationed in their province. If the dukes are analogous to royal governors (as I believe they are), they're supposed to use the Emperor's funds and resources to solve the tasks the Emperor has given them.

Would the Emperor allow a duke to use his independent fleet to influence, harass, or threaten his neighbors?
Neighboring dukes, almost certainly not. Though I'm sure it has happened on occasion. One big disincentive to territorial aggression is the Imperium's policy of making each subsector a duchy if at all feasible. A duke would know that he wouldn't be allowed to keep any acquisitions he might make in a neighboring subsector, so why bother to try?

Incidentally, I don't think duchy fleets are any more independent than the national guards of the US states. Or the ships and troops of the East India Company.

Since this isn't a feudal empire and fealty is not sworn, do the house fleets owe any allegiance or recognize the authority of the Emperor?
All noblemen and all members of the Imperial services swear allegiance to the Emperor. In a feudal setup, a baron or marquis would swear fealthy to a count who whould swear fealthy to a duke who would swear fealthy to an archduke, who would swear fealthy to the Emperor.

Does the IN have the horsepower in any given sector to dispatch with a house fleet?
If you mean a duchy navy, then we don't know, because we don't know in what proportion the Imperium's military funds are divided between duchy and regular forces. Once, long ago, I thought I'd read somewhere in canon that it was divided 50/50 (and I know others have made the same assumption), but I've never been able to track down the reference, so I'm most likely wrong about that. OTOH, I've never been able to track down any other information on the subject either.

Assuming for purposes of argument that it is divided 50/50, a sector duke would have at his disposal 16 regular and one duchy fleet, each the match of any other duchy fleet, so he would be able to remonstrate with an obstreperous duke. At least until the planetary navies of the high-population worlds interfered.

Empirical evidence suggests that the smallest region that might have a chance to stand up to the Imperium would be a full sector (Two recorded attempts, the Julian War and the Ilelish Revolt, one succeeded, one failed).

It seems very Dune-ish; is the Imperium really so unstable that individual dukes take matters into their own hands?
Seeing as the Emperor has appointed the dukes for the express purpose of taking matters into their own hands, I'd say the answer is that the Imperium is not unstable at all. Or at least, dukes acting on their own is not a symptom of any such instability.

Just questions, don't want to start a tussle, Hans ;)
Feel free. One never knows when someone will point out something that I've completely misunderstood or overlooked.


Hans
 
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With the exception that Sector Dukes and Domain Archdukes can make Baronets and knights.
Archdukes can, sector dukes (who are merely subsector dukes with a few extra duties) can't. It's one of the few powers the archdukes still retained before Strephon began re-empowering them. But even so, they don't appoint knights (baronets are just hereditary knights) in the medieval feudal sense of giving them a horse and armor (or a manor that provided the income to buy horses and armor) in return for military service, but in the modern sense of awarding them for achievements.


Hans
 
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skirmish

Would the Emperor allow a duke to establish a rival military organization to his own, using funds and resources that should be his to command?

Would the Emperor allow a duke to use his independent fleet to influence, harass, or threaten his neighbors?

It seems very Dune-ish; is the Imperium really so unstable that individual dukes take matters into their own hands?

When politics fails....
I've always assumed from TCS that planetary/system navies can get into skirmishes at a Count or below level. I suspect mega corps throw their weight around (for example, EDS going into Iran, for its people, during the revolution). Dukes (or equivalent) could have the edge by staying above such activities but allowing non-nuclear skirmishes at a local level or encouraging it, as in Star Wars.
 
hmmm, in the modern sense, rewarding citizens for good public service would be done at the world/balkanized government level and signed off/overseen by the Noble in charge.

For example NZ has a reward structure administering Knighthoods, run by the NZ Government and overseen by the Governor General as NZ's official Head of State (and representative of the Queen).

Of course parrallels between RL and canon don't always work :)
 
In the spirit of making the imperium as versatile a setting as possible, here's my suggestion for subsector navies:

I like the suggestion, but prefer the explanation in Grand Fleet. In essence the Sub Sector Fleet reports directly to the Sector Fleet whom allocates or withdraws assets as it sees fit.

In event of a major war, its role is independent of the local Nobility whom will not be able to see the bigger picture beyond thier immediate charge. It provides local and far more responsive fleet leadership with the three goals of delaying the enemy offensive, making the capture of important worlds require significant enemy assets and it provide intelligence to the Sector Fleet. Preservation of the Sub-sector Fleet is a very important task that strategically holds more importance than the futile last ditch defence of a Sub-Sector capital. This is at odds with the demands of Sub-Sector Nobles demanding a "Not one step back" defence.

In peacetime it takes direction but not orders from the sub-sector Nobility, it is tasked with assisting the Nobilities local goals where they do not conflict with the interests of the Imperium as a whole. In effect preventing for example Duchy wars with Imperial Assets.

Local Nobles may of course raise thier own navies, however these are expensive and unlikely to be a threat to the Imperial Sub-Sector navy. In the event of major war, any assets capable of jump will be co-opted by the Imperial Navy. Meantime the Sub-Sector Noble with a fleet can do as he wishes within the boundaries of Imperial Law. Enforced of course by the Sub-Sector Navy whom are authorised directly by the Emperor to do so.

"Sorry Duke, that is contrary to the Empiriums interests as decreed by the head of the Navy, Emperor Strephon." Will be heard from lowly Patrol Cruiser commanders, let alone Sub-Sector Admirals.

Of course the Nobility has its own command structure with the Emperor at its head. Ultimately it may get its own way or force punishment on a Naval Commander that unreasonably withheld assistence.

I like GF's explanation. There are more interesting dynamics involved with the duel reporting system keeping check on an overzealous Navy or Nobility. Sub-Sector Navies are also not restricted by the assets of the Sub-Sector, instead percieved threats and political maneouvering will influence what assets the Sub-Sector Navy has. Ultimately what the Sub-Sector Noble can do with local naval assets will depend on the relationship he/she has with the Sub-Sector Admiral. In most cases the relationship will be close.

It also explains why titles are so important to the Navy, Sub-Sector Admirals will often recieve a title that may (or may not) make them the equal of the local Noble. Another way of ensuring the Navy retains its loyalty directly to the IN and Strephon.

Cheers
Matt
 
I like the suggestion, but prefer the explanation in Grand Fleet. In essence the Sub Sector Fleet reports directly to the Sector Fleet whom allocates or withdraws assets as it sees fit.
That would work if the subsector navies were reserve fleets raised locally but funded by the regular navy. However, according to HG, subsector navies are navies, not fleets, and separate from the regular navy.

And, of course, such a setup does not lend itself to diversity but rather sameness.

Happily, Grand Fleet isn't canon :devil:.

Edit: Keep in mind that MT changed the subsector navies into reserve fleets. I'm suggesting that the subsector navies from CT be REintroduced. That does not necessarily mean that the IN reserve fleets can't be kept. A subsector could have BOTH a reserve fleet, paid for by the IN, AND a duchy navy, paid for by the duchy. This would mean that what Grand Fleet says is all perfectly true, just incomplete, the duchy navies simply not being mentioned at all.



Hans
 
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That would work if the subsector navies were reserve fleets raised locally but funded by the regular navy. However, according to HG, subsector navies are navies, not fleets, and separate from the regular navy.

And, of course, such a setup does not lend itself to diversity but rather sameness.

Happily, Grand Fleet isn't canon :devil:.

Ahh, the diversity is in how we choose to see our Imperium :) Your sameness is my subtle interplay of political dynamics as influence over Imperial assets is sought and challanged.

You have given me thought on reserve fleets tho' and how IN mothballed ships may be passed down to major worlds to maintain and use as prestige symbols and a way of extending influence. Combined with a few new ships, an influential local Noble could amass a good little fleet. Kinda fits with GF view that IN Sub-sector fleets are fleshed out with 2nd line ships, just adds an extra level of detail as to who holds them in the meantime and very losely ties in with where you are heading, albeit on a much smaller scale.
 
Hmm, while the GF concept has it's points, it has one factor against it which is the Duchy Fleets' strong point - the Barracks Emperors. Until Dulinor, no duke had caused Imperium wide havoc attempting to take the throne, however the dynasty sitting on the throne owes it's position to an Imperial Navy admiral who took it. Split the power between the Imperial Navy and the ducal fleets so the emperor can play sides against each other.
 
GF is like a snapshot at one particular time, showing a way of organising a Fleet and Leadership structure. Other options no doubt exist in the history of the Imperium.

The problem you describe has RL parallels in a number of third & second world countries, where coup d'etats happen on an all too frequent basis. In the Imperium the system gvernments on some struggling worlds will no doubt suffer from the same problems.

Where a strong, stable and popularly supported government system (demcracy, monarchy, non-charismatic dictator, etc) exists however it takes a major disturbance in the status quo to motivate military leaders to take action. In RL it takes quite a leap to picture the military leaders of the US, Russia, Britian, France, etc pulling a coup d'etat.

Regarding the origins of Strephons dynasty, you are of course correct. But look a little further back and you reach Cleon IV whom reportedly reached the throne by right of assasination, as did several others following him setting the stage for a period of un-settled leadership gained 'legally' through assasination. Followed by a series of Flag Emperors that lead to the current stable(ish) leadership.

Argueably it is ambitious Nobility (right of assasination)that is the threat during stable times and ambitious Admirals (right of fleet control) during unstable times.
 
Argueably it is ambitious Nobility (right of assasination)that is the threat during stable times and ambitious Admirals (right of fleet control) during unstable times.
The fact that nobles have ceremonial sidearms that the archdukes, at the very least, are allowed (required?) to wear in the Emperor's presence shows that by the Classic Era (500 years after the Right of Assassination was last invoked), assassination as a road to the throne has become literally inconcievable. IIRC there's even a comment in one of the MT books to the effect that the library data entry about the RoA is something that Dulinor's people wrote after the fact; if pre-Rebellion LD mentions it at all it's as a quaint notion, no longer applicable.


Hans
 
When politics fails....
I've always assumed from TCS that planetary/system navies can get into skirmishes at a Count or below level. I suspect mega corps throw their weight around (for example, EDS going into Iran, for its people, during the revolution). Dukes (or equivalent) could have the edge by staying above such activities but allowing non-nuclear skirmishes at a local level or encouraging it, as in Star Wars.

--------------------I used to work for EDS.
 
The fact that nobles have ceremonial sidearms that the archdukes, at the very least, are allowed (required?) to wear in the Emperor's presence shows that by the Classic Era (500 years after the Right of Assassination was last invoked), assassination as a road to the throne has become literally inconcievable.

Inconcievable to all but the Imperial Bodyguard, Secret Service and some Archdukes that is! The threat always exists, but 500 years of relative stability is a good record.

Cheers
Matt
 
Inconcievable to all but the Imperial Bodyguard, Secret Service and some Archdukes that is!
No, if Strephon's security had really considered a threat from Dulinor credible, having half the bodyguards secretly working for Dulinor wouldn't have kept him alive long enough to kill Strephon.


Hans
 
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