Duchy navies

[aramis]

The No Standing Army is in COACC. That's where Doug drew it from; Doug and I discussed the lack for some time on XBML, pre-'96. Armies are local world. The Imperial Marines are the primary imperial ground forces. Huscarles, not being local troops, but household troops of the nobles, quite obviously serve their Noble's purposes; the 1188th quit obviously was activated to imperial service because Norris was busy playing admiral.

 

[rancke]

The No Standing Army is in COACC. That's where Doug drew it from; Doug and I discussed the lack for some time on XBML, pre-'96. Armies are local world. The Imperial Marines are the primary imperial ground forces. Huscarles, not being local troops, but household troops of the nobles, quite obviously serve their Noble's purposes; the 1188th quit obviously was activated to imperial service because Norris was busy playing admiral.

Could you provide me with page references? Because the only remarks I was able to find with a quick browse-through mentioned the existence of an Imperial Army. See p. 10 and p. 13 "The Imperium organizes its armed forces into the navy [...] and the army [...]."

Though that is a side issue here, since you can have the dukes control the Unified Armies without the armies being feudally bound to them.


Hans

 

[Matt123]

etc...

Imperial nobles do not appoint their so-called vassals. Their vassals do not swear fealthy to them but to the Emperor. Imperial nobles probably make reccomandations and the Emperor probably follow such recommandations more often than not, but that's not feudalism.

Hmmm the practicalities of your vision of how Imperial Feudalism work would make life 'difficult', nullifying the very reason why feudalism was adopted in the first place.

I know you accept the concept of delegated authority, but it seems not in this case. Rather you would have it that the Nobility of a wide spread Empire have to undertake a 2 year trip to Capital to recieve titles in person. It seems local Nobility cannot be trusted to represent the Emperors interests!

I would expect the Emperor to take a personal interest in Sector Dukes & Sub-Sector Dukes, but beyond that his office IMHO would monitor appointments made and only step in if abuses appear to be happening.

 

[rancke]

Hmmm the practicalities of your vision of how Imperial Feudalism work would make life 'difficult', nullifying the very reason why feudalism was adopted in the first place.

What makes you think feudalism was ever adopted in the first place?

I know you accept the concept of delegated authority, but it seems not in this case. Rather you would have it that the Nobility of a wide spread Empire have to undertake a 2 year trip to Capital to recieve titles in person. It seems local Nobility cannot be trusted to represent the Emperors interests!

Your conclusions about my beliefs do not flow naturally from anything I've said. Most successions would be pre-approved. That's presumably the reason why the "governorships" are hereditary. Why would a noble have to take a trip to Capital to swear allegiance to the Emperor? Do all American military officers take a trip to Washington to swear allegiance to the Constitution?

I would expect the Emperor to take a personal interest in Sector Dukes & Sub-Sector Dukes, but beyond that his office IMHO would monitor appointments made and only step in if abuses appear to be happening.

You're mixing up formal and practical. Does the Duke of Regina advice the Emperor that the eldest son of the Countess of Rethe is unsuitable for the position and that it would be best to persuade him to step aside in favor of his sister?[*] Yes. Does Strephon take Norris' advice? Almost certainly. Does that mean Norris appoints the daughter heir? It does not. Formally it is still the Emperor who makes the decision.


Hans


[*] NB! Non-canon example.

 

[mike wightman]

How exactly does 'the Duke of Regina advice the Emperor...' ?

Send message by x-boat, wait 4 years, get reply?

(nb the 4 years is an exaggeration to make a point - they could use naval couriers)

The only way to make this feudal system work is to allow the sector dukes to make such decisions.

 

[rancke]

How exactly does 'the Duke of Regina advice the Emperor...' ?

Send message by x-boat, wait 4 years, get reply?

(nb the 4 years is an exaggeration to make a point - they could use naval couriers)

Well, back in the early days of the Imperium, the trip took about a year and a half (guesstimate) each way, so it's not that much of an exaggeration. Today, with jump-6 couriers, we're down to around 500 days (From Regina to Mora are 4 jumps, from Mora to Deneb is another 4, from Deneb to Vland is 13 jumps, and from Vland to Capital is 11 jumps, for a total of 32 jumps. Depending on how fast the Navy's courier system is, that could mean as little as a year and 12 weeks[*], but if we assume an average jump time of 8 days, we get a turnaround time of a year and 21 weeks.)

[*] Yes, it's possible, albeit very expensive, to get an average jump time of a little less than 168 hours by using multiple couriers for each link.​

The only way to make this feudal system work is to allow the sector dukes to make such decisions.

(And you know this for a fact how?)

Unless you make most of these decisions ahead of time by making the appointments ahead of time. Say by making the posts hereditary. Of course you have to allow the local dukes to make emergency appointments that has to be ratified by the Emperor to be final. But not the sector dukes. They're specifically said to be merely first among equals, not overlords of their fellow dukes in the sector.

Incidentally, my original point was not whether it would work or not, since there's really no way to prove or disprove that, but whether it was canonically described as functioning like a feudal system or not. It's not. For one thing, the subsectors (i.e. the duchies) are said to be the lowest level of interstellar government. This means that the dukes, at least, do not subinfeudate, since, if they did, the counties would constitute a lower level of interstellar government. That's how a feudal system works; if you give someone a fief, he gets to run it.


Hans

 

[Matt123]

What makes you think feudalism was ever adopted in the first place?

CT Canon.

Why would a noble have to take a trip to Capital to swear allegiance to the Emperor? Do all American military officers take a trip to Washington to swear allegiance to the Constitution?

Nor does Obama personally approve officers in the US military. Yet you insist on personally involving the Emperor on these decisions. Theatre Commanders, yes. Important districts (read Sectors) yes. The details of the delinquint son of a minor Noble on the outskirts of the Imperium whose family he has never met. No. Its a bit like suggesting Obama should read the reports on each West Point applicant and the recommendations before personally accepting anyone. I would think Strephon/Obama's workload was large enough. Not to mention the delays involved in getting such an item onto thier Agenda.

Delegation of authority is a key pre-requisite to the Imperium working effectively. Delays of 3-4 years before a world can get confirmation of who its Imperial representative is, is un-acceptable. It would appear to slight the Noble family involved, lower thier apparent status in the eyes of the population they are representing, undermine the worlds belief they have a voice in the Imperium, temporarily remove the worlds influence in local sub-sector affairs and increase the work load of other Nobles to whom the appointee would normally report to.

Add to this a generational change every 20-30 years, roughly 20% of these years the world will be without Imperial representation. On average a sub-sector will have 4 such worlds in 'limbo'. A Sector will have 64 worlds plus 3-4 sub-sectors in 'limbo', less as the distances to Capital get shorter.

Of course if the Nobility have to be personally approved by Strephon, so to must the Navy Officer Corp, Marine Officers, Imperial Army Officers and Scout Administrators. Strephon would obviously be a busy chap.

 

[rancke]

What makes you think feudalism was ever adopted in the first place?

CT Canon.

What canon? As I said from the start, the Imperium is called a feudal system, but there is no canonical description of it functioning as one and several canonical descriptions of features that are not feudal. So I say again: "Canonical statements notwithstanding, the Imperium is not a feudal system. It's an autocracy with pseudo-feudal trimmings." To prove me wrong, you should provide examples of the Imperium functioning as a feudality, not just being referred to as one.

Nor does Obama personally approve officers in the US military. Yet you insist on personally involving the Emperor on these decisions.

Formally, yes. He may delegate the task to one of his ministers, but formally he is the one who makes the appointment.

And, to repeat, I'm not arguing that this would work (merely that you can't prove that it wouldn't work), but that this is the way it's shown in canon.

The details of the delinquint son of a minor Noble on the outskirts of the Imperium whose family he has never met. No. Its a bit like suggesting Obama should read the reports on each West Point applicant and the recommendations before personally accepting anyone.

No it isn't.

Delegation of authority is a key pre-requisite to the Imperium working effectively. Delays of 3-4 years before a world can get confirmation of who its Imperial representative is, is un-acceptable.

Year and a half, tops. And only in rare cases when accidents happen. And when those accidents do happen, there's the line of succession to fall back upon. And if (and only if) the line of succession throws up a totally unsuitable minor noble, the local duke can step in and use his Imperial mandate to replace him. He just has to justify his action to the Emperor after the fact. That's why the Emperor delegated his authority to him.

It would appear to slight the Noble family involved, lower their apparent status in the eyes of the population they are representing, undermine the worlds belief they have a voice in the Imperium, temporarily remove the worlds influence in local sub-sector affairs and increase the work load of other Nobles to whom the appointee would normally report to.

I don't think it would, but, once again, I'm not saying anything about how well the system would work, I'm saying that that's how it is shown to work.

Add to this a generational change every 20-30 years, roughly 20% of these years the world will be without Imperial representation. On average a sub-sector will have 4 such worlds in 'limbo'. A Sector will have 64 worlds plus 3-4 sub-sectors in 'limbo', less as the distances to Capital get shorter.

No, there won't be anywhere near that number of worlds without a noble to represent them, because in most cases the heir is preapproved, and in most of the rest of the cases the heir will be adequate to fulfil the duties so suddenly thrust upon him.

Of course if the Nobility have to be personally approved by Strephon, so to must the Navy Officer Corp, Marine Officers, Imperial Army Officers and Scout Administrators. Strephon would obviously be a busy chap.

This 1) does not follow and 2) would be only formally, not in practice even if it was the case.


Hans

 

[Peter Schutze]

>in most cases the heir is preapproved

most cases ? I would expect very few exceptions and they would be covered by regent arrangements.

the old saying 'the king is dead, long live the king' would have to apply to all hereditary titles or we would have to accept the nobles are only irrelevant figureheads which contradicts just about everything we know about the 3rd imperium government.

For all the hereditary titles, the heir (and probably a substitute) would be confirmed years in advance .... and have an approved regent nominated in case there is an age issue. Feudalism is a very heirarchical system so this kind of thing would be prepared for to minimise disruptions.

Once the title is vacated, his boss would put in an appearance as the emperor's representative to put an official stamp of approval on the succession ceremony. For regency situations, there would probably be some additional briefings but it would be a surprise if the regent wasnt already well known and 'on the pulse'

I've always ruled that a noble player character was not the current office-bearer but the heir or substitute for that title. This also neatly explains why noble characters couldnt bring a ridiculous amount of resources to bear on in-game problems.

 

[aramis]

How exactly does 'the Duke of Regina advice the Emperor...' ?

Send message by x-boat, wait 4 years, get reply?

(nb the 4 years is an exaggeration to make a point - they could use naval couriers)

The only way to make this feudal system work is to allow the sector dukes to make such decisions.

The actual trip time, using the civil X-Boats, is approximately 11 months each way to/from Regina, and a month less to/from Mora... and less in all the other domains. I've actually used published sources...Having the sector duke of domain archduke appoint an "acting ___ of ___" for the one year expected turn around is pretty reasonable... but only the emperor can confirm "real nobles" (Baron, Count, Marquis, Duke) in their titles. The Archduke of the domain can confirm, and even grant, the Baronetcies and Knighthoods of both their domain order and of other local orders.

I'm looking at a routing on XBoats, on travellermap.com...

Regina - Capital 48 jumps (384 days 13 3/4 mo)
Mora - Capital 37 jumps (296 days 10 3/4 mo)
Vland - Capital 25 jumps (200 days; 7 1/4 mo)

There are several nonsensical non-connects of worlds J4 from other worlds on routes, but taking long ways around; connecting them saves 2 MONTHS in Corridor! THe conections in the SM can save another month+ in the marches. That's just using existing nodes!

 

[rancke]

Regina - Capital 48 jumps (384 days 13 3/4 mo)
Mora - Capital 37 jumps (296 days 10 3/4 mo)
Vland - Capital 25 jumps (200 days; 7 1/4 mo)

And if you assume that the Imperial Bureaucracy uses Navy couriers to convey reports and orders (and I can't think of any reason why under the circumstances they wouldn't), it's 32 jumps Regina - Capital, 28 jumps Mora - Capital, and 11 jumps Vland - Capital.


Hans

 

[aramis]

And if you assume that the Imperial Bureaucracy uses Navy couriers to convey reports and orders (and I can't think of any reason why under the circumstances they wouldn't), it's 32 jumps Regina - Capital, 28 jumps Mora - Capital, and 11 jumps Vland - Capital.


Hans

I concur.

And the numbers match my recollections pretty much.

 

[rancke]

And the numbers match my recollections pretty much.

I worked out the route on the map, occasionally using 5-parsec jumps (and IIRC on one occasion a 4-parsec one) to match up with important worlds along the routes. It would be possible to shave a couple of jumps off the total route, but only by using deep space fuel depots to allow jump-6 all along. That would involve considerable expense for slight gain. But the Navy or the Emperor might think it was worth it.

Another variable is the average time per jump. If every courier has to refuel and move on, each jump averages 7 days plus refuelling time. If there are fresh couriers standing by at each station, it might only takes a few minutes to transfer the top priority items. If each link involves multiple couriers, the average time per jump actually goes down to around 163 hours.


Hans

 

[aramis]

my Xboat times assume 8 days per leg, to allow txfr to new courier.

 

[Ran Targas]

Just a thought:

In a TU with a strong Imperial Navy presence, would the Imperium be inclined to limit the jump capability of planetary or sub-sector military vessels? And only allow unarmed or lightly armed ships (couriers, VIP xports, etc.) to have long legs?

This could be one way the IN maintains its strategic and tactical superiority over local forces while still allowing them to perform the duties for which they were meant; defending the space within and immediately adjacent to their jurisdiction. It may even improve intra-sector relations between rival states by reducing the opportunities for tactical surprise or deep strikes.

 

[rancke]

In a TU with a strong Imperial Navy presence, would the Imperium be inclined to limit the jump capability of planetary or sub-sector military vessels? And only allow unarmed or lightly armed ships (couriers, VIP xports, etc.) to have long legs?

This could be one way the IN maintains its strategic and tactical superiority over local forces...

That's a possibility, sure. In the board game Imperium the Vilani player operates under just such a handicap. Of course, at that time and space (not the OTU) a governor governed a significant slice of the Imperium; half a dozen worlds out of 70. In the case of the 3rd Imperium, I feel that the regular Imperial Navy having 300 times the strength of a duchy fleet would be enough to discourage ambitious dukes even if they were allowed to build dreadnaughts.

It also depends on one of the great undefined aspects of the setting: How big a slice of the Imperial revenues does a subsector duke get to keep for his own use? If it's a small enough slice, the question is moot because duke won't be able to afford dreadnaughts.

On the other hand, the planetary navies certainly can afford to build dreadnaughts and big monitors. It arguable that a duke will need a few dreadnaughts of his own just to hold his head up high among his planetary potentates.


Hans

 

[Maccat]

One of the things i always liked about the LBB2 design stuff, you have that inherent limit of size x jump capability, especially when tech-level limited. A different take though would be is the Imperial Navy jump-4 standard an outgrowth of subsector sizes (and hence the duchy navies)? Jump 4 essentially covers a subsector if centrally based.

In the histories of Terran/Solomani 2nd Imperium being heavily fleet based and with a jump superiority (and dton as well per HG) and the 3rd imperium arising from what was the 2nds capital there, adding in the numerous fleet emporers, I certainly agree with this stuff on duchy navies. How it plays out with the dynamics of the Imperial fleet for me would be a YMMV type of thing. Then again the Imperial Fleet could in essence be composed of units from the duchy navies, which would make for some hellish politics in fleet campaigns.

 

[boomslang]

One of the things i always liked about the LBB2 design stuff, you have that inherent limit of size x jump capability, especially when tech-level limited.

At the risk of being a pedantic grognard, LBB2 does not limit Jump by TL; that limit only enters CT with LBB5. The practical limits on Small Ship TU performance under B2 are more a consequence of the way LBB2 lays out the Drive Performance Table, combined with the exorbitant powerplant fuel requirements under B2.

Under strict LBB2, you can build a Jump-4 courier at TL10 and a very nice Jump-5 one at TL11; this always annoys HG2 purists to no end, which is the primary appeal of it.

A different take though would be is the Imperial Navy jump-4 standard an outgrowth of subsector sizes (and hence the duchy navies)? Jump 4 essentially covers a subsector if centrally based..

TCS parameters (and the 4FW & 5FW) suggest it is a consequence of HG2; at TL15 under HG2, you cannot construct a capital battleship (or battlecruiser, as it were) of the line with greater than Jump-4 capability that is worth sending into battle in the first place, no matter how hard you try to retcon it. (I am looking at you, Lightning-class Intruder Cruisers.)

Jump-4 does cover a medium-to-high-density subsector, but in the Marches, for example, it can be a little problematic in places.

 

[Maccat]

um lol sure they do drive sizes by TL in LBB3:
p 15 table
TL Drives
9 A-D
A E-H
B J-K
C L-N
D P-Q
E R-U
F all drives

But yes the TL by jump LBB5, and yes DEFINITELY can make a J4 at TL 10!!!
Just um, 400t or less. Interesting one to me is in the mongoose traveller, the limit on jump is from the jump software (!) TL, and they made the /4 now TL12 (grrr), but then i guess we just use /3 (bis) @ TLB (grrr) with expeimental software or something lol.

Regarding the TL issue, what if one's duchy subsector has sure high tech worlds, but has say a TL 10 industrial world. Wouldn't your fleet tend to be that TL then? or a majority of the tonnage. or maybe just the hulls and their armor (sigh)

 

[Whipsnade]

um lol sure they do drive sizes by TL in LBB3:

Maccat,

LBB:2 limits jump by tech level at one remove. It doesn't do so directly.

While a size D drive allows a 200 dTon vessel to jump 4 parsecs, the same size D drive allows a 400 dTon drive to jump only 2 parsecs. The drive isn't rated by parsecs as it would be in HG2. It's rated by a letter which means different things in different applications.

Interesting one to me is in the mongoose traveller, the limit on jump is from the jump software (!) TL...

Traveller has had somewhat similar restriction since HG2, but again at one remove. You needed computers of a certain tech level to achieve certain jump ratings.

The issue of LBB:2 drives is a thorny one and it had been ever since HG2 came out with little effort to "fit" it to what had come before.

The best "explanation" I've seen regarding the all the questions swirling around seemingly odd LBB:2's design paradigms is to presume that the LBB:2 drives are "modules" of some kind. While these modules can only be developed and designed at the tech levels listed, they can be built (or assembled) at any Class A starport. So, a TL9 world can build a jump4 vessel because a higher TL world has done all the "heavy lifting".


Regards,
Bill