Duchy navies

[Matt123]

No, if Strephon's security had really considered a threat from Dulinor credible, having half the bodyguards secretly working for Dulinor wouldn't have kept him alive long enough to kill Strephon.

Hmmm, so security is totaly dedicated to protecting Strephon from armed and ambitious Archdukes, excepting where the Archduke has infiltrated security...
(and he wouldn't need half, 2 or 3 in positions of authority would do.)

Sounds good to me & re-inforces the longstanding threat of Archdukes. That security was infiltrated indicates there was a need to infiltrate it. Otherwise if security was that freindly to armed Archdukes, why bother, just shoot Strephon, claim the throne & claim immediate loyalty from the ambivilant Imperial Security, before of course sacking them and finding proper security.

 

[rancke]

Hmmm, so security is totaly dedicated to protecting Strephon from armed and ambitious Archdukes, excepting where the Archduke has infiltrated security...

He didn't infiltrate security per se. He replaced every member of the Ilelish Guard with people who were loyal to him rather than to their emperor. We're talking major organisatorial shuffle here. That's the sort of thing that scatters shiny clues around like confetti for anyone who cares to look to spot. The only explanation is that no one was looking. A rather startling failure if Dulinor was thought of as a potential threat.

(and he wouldn't need half, 2 or 3 in positions of authority would do.)

He needs 2 or 3 in positions of authority to do the infiltration. He needs every Imperial security organization to not notice. He also needs every security guard in the throne room not only loyal to him, but prepared beforehand for for what is going to happen. What's the instinctive response of a bodyguard when they see someone pointing a gun at their principal? Dulinor would be running a fearful risk if he drew his gun in the presence of any Ilelish guard who wasn't in on it. Besides, the guards were tasked with suppressing the other guards before they could react. That takes preparation.

Sounds good to me & re-inforces the longstanding threat of Archdukes. That security was infiltrated indicates there was a need to infiltrate it. Otherwise if security was that freindly to armed Archdukes, why bother, just shoot Strephon, claim the throne & claim immediate loyalty from the ambivilant Imperial Security, before of course sacking them and finding proper security.

It's not about being friendly. It's about seeing an armed archduke as a threat, which they obviously didn't. An armed archduke could probably have killed Strephon anyway, but he wouldn't have survived him by more than the reaction time of a score of highly-trained bodyguards.


Hans

 

[Mark Morgan]

It's not about being friendly. It's about seeing an armed archduke as a threat, which they obviously didn't. An armed archduke could probably have killed Strephon anyway, but he wouldn't have survived him by more than the reaction time of a score of highly-trained bodyguards.


Hans[/QUOTE]
maybe the assign did not after Strephon himself was not there where is it sure dulinor known to have been there as oposed to be a robot who can be disposed of later

 

[rancke]

maybe the assign did not after Strephon himself was not there where is it sure dulinor known to have been there as oposed to be a robot who can be disposed of later

Who says what now?


Hans

 

[Matt123]

It's not about being friendly. It's about seeing an armed archduke as a threat, which they obviously didn't. An armed archduke could probably have killed Strephon anyway, but he wouldn't have survived him by more than the reaction time of a score of highly-trained bodyguards.

I confess I struggle with the concept of "highly trained bodyguards" whom don't look at armed 'anybody' as a threat. The simplest way to avoid being shot by bodyguards is to simply shoot Strephon dead and drop the weapon. A live assasin is always more interesting than a dead one and in the TU may hold a legitimate claim to the throne...

Regardless your premis seems to be that security is highly trained and competent, yet never saw nor anticipated such an obvious threat. IMHO a very strange position to take! And a situation that doesn't require a lot of planning & preparation to take advantage of. I can suggest half a dozen ways to distract or confuse bodyguards that don't consider an assasin a threat, especially one as highly ranked as an Archduke.

No, I prefer the explanation that Dulinor took years to infiltrate a dedicated and effective Imperial Agency, undoing its effectiveness by the turning of a few key personal to his interests. From here it is relatively simple to stage manage the assasination and its immediate aftermath. The longer term gameplan to secure the leadership against dissenters and gain the support of the IN however would take a lot more work.

Matt

 

[rancke]

Regardless your premise seems to be that security is highly trained and competent, yet never saw nor anticipated such an obvious threat.

No, my premise is that they didn't anticipate the threat. I base this on the canonical fact that they didn't spot Dulinor's preliminary maneuvers and allowed him into Strephon's presence with a loaded gun. My conclusion is that no one even thought of assasination as a way to the throne as a serious concept; if they had, they would have considered Dulinor a threat.

IMHO a very strange position to take! And a situation that doesn't require a lot of planning & preparation to take advantage of. I can suggest half a dozen ways to distract or confuse bodyguards that don't consider an assassin a threat, especially one as highly ranked as an Archduke.

Japanese Daimyos considered assasination a constant worry and thus had bodyguards and forbade most people to wear their swords in their presence. Except for certain trustworthy people who were allowed to do so. Obviously we have a similar situation here. Dulinor was allowed to carry his weapon because he was not considered a threat. I submit that this would not have been the case if anyone had even remotely considered the possibility that he could promote himself to Emperor with one shot.


Hans

 

[Matt123]

I think you are mixing whom is the one that decides the arms bearer is trust worthy.

In the case of Archdukes, that is a political decision made by Strephon, similar to decisions made throughout history, leaders allowing trusted lieutenants to retain side-arms. Its not uncommon. What is un-common is for security to be happy with the concept.

The ways of turning a trusted & armed lieutenant are well documented in fact & fiction and I am sure that given the scale of the Imperium, "assasination by trusted lieutenant" is not an unheard of event. Security at all levels, from lowly planetary governor and up will be well aware of the risks. But. Big But, the boss gets to make the call and all security can do is ensure he is aware that the decision may cost him his life and act respectfully and with caution when the trusted lieutenant is present.

Of course the caution disappears when the trusted lieutenant is the one in charge of security or has turned key personal.

Cheers

 

[rancke]

Of course the caution disappears when the trusted lieutenant is the one in charge of security or has turned key personal.

But according to canon, Dulinor hadn't turned key personel in any organization other than the Ilelish Guard. Not the Scouts, not the Navy, not the Army, not any of the other Imperial intelligence services.

Why do you feel that it is more likely that Dulinor managed to subvert every intelligence service in the Imperium than that the Right of Assasination, not having been invoked in 500 years, had been for all intents and purposes forgotten, relegated to the status of a quaint historical fact?


Hans

 

[Mark Morgan]

dulindor does not need every intel agnetcy to not ntoice just that any that do notice to get so bogged down trying to get the data to the right people or for th right person to have been coopated

think about a "bridge too far" ww2 and the radio no one was sure were going to work a drop zone what 11 miles from the bridge thate recon photos showing what turned out to SS pazner troops all of these problems were known but theyese thing never got together in front of the right people

or like Tora Tora where you have someone runing deperately try to tell everyone the japs were going to attacks at 1 pm estern time

 

[savage]

Eds

--------------------I used to work for EDS.

So did I...

 

[aramis]

It's important to remember that Strephon and Dulinor were not just Boss and Lieutenant, but also close friends for many years. Dulinor's treachery is thus a treble whammy...

Dulinor was..
1) a close friend
2) a trusted vassal
3) a high ranking official of the Imperium

and his open rebellion, even tho he hit the dupe, was a breach of
1) Personal Trust... you don't kill your friends.
2) Professional Trust... you get to carry the gun to DEFEND the emperor, not to Kill the emperor
3) Noble Ethics... you don't kill your liege lord. At least not while he's sane.

So, the end result, either Dulinor's a Sociopath, or Dulinor's convinced that Strephon's either a dupe, a duplicate, or gone insane...
or more than one of the above.

And, given that we know from Survival Margin that Strephon really was NOT in the throne room, perhaps Dulinor noticed a Usurper on the Throne... and hoped IRIS would do their job and reveal the duplicate, but then he got a wild hair, and claimed the throne.

 

[Matt123]

Why do you feel that it is more likely that Dulinor managed to subvert every intelligence service in the Imperium...

In short I don't, for the same reason I don't believe he had to have half of Strephons security subverted. The support of a few key people is sufficient and aids in preventing Imperial agencies from discovering the plot.

Regards the lack of action by 'every inteligence service', I like simple answers. First; because they weren't aware, second; because they didn't connect the dots. Even whistleblowers are sometimes ignored. And keep in mind their primary concern isn't the personal safety of the Emperor, which they will assume is the forte of Strephons own personal security.

Cheers
Matt

 

[rancke]

[Dulinor's] open rebellion, even tho he hit the dupe, was a breach of
1) Personal Trust... you don't kill your friends.
2) Professional Trust... you get to carry the gun to DEFEND the emperor, not to Kill the emperor
3) Noble Ethics... you don't kill your liege lord. At least not while he's sane.

In other words, Dulinor wasn't considered a threat. I agree completely. However, I submit that if the Right of Assassination had been considered a valid road to the throne for archdukes, Steephon might still very well have trusted Dulinor, but his professional security people would not.

So, the end result, either Dulinor's a Sociopath, or Dulinor's convinced that Strephon's either a dupe, a duplicate, or gone insane...
or more than one of the above.

Oh, the human capacity for self-serving self-delusion is nigh-infinite. I've no problem with Dulinor convincing himself that he was "forced" to do it. It probably all started one day when he read a historical article that mentioned this quaint, antiquated custom called the Right of Assassination that he'd never heard of before and that everybody today considered off the books. But since it was never actually ON the books...

And, given that we know from Survival Margin that Strephon really was NOT in the throne room, perhaps Dulinor noticed a Usurper on the Throne... and hoped IRIS would do their job and reveal the duplicate, but then he got a wild hair, and claimed the throne.

Won't work, for several reasons. IRIS doesn't exist, Strephon has every right to use doubles, and Dulinor's pre-assassination shenanigans are quite plainly aimed at treachery. They're also far too extensive to remain secret for very long (As I've argued, they're far too extensive to've remained secret before the fact, unless for some reason no one was keeping an eye on him).

Incidentally, I'm sure Dulinor was informed about Strephon's absence when he arrived at Capital. As you said, he was a close friend of Strephon. If anyone was going to spot the double, he was. And why shouldn't Strephon's seneshal inform him? "The Emperor sends his regrets, Archduke, but he was unexpectedly called away. He asks that you go through the charade with his surgically altered double to avoid starting any rumors. The Emperor will be back as soon as possible, and you can tell him what it was you wanted to talk to him about". Much better than trying to bluff Dulinor and go through with an intimate conversation about whatever it is Dulinor wants to broach with his good friend and Emperor.

Poor Dulinor. It must have been a nasty surprise for him. But at that point he's committed. There are far too many people involved in the conspiracy and far too many clues scattered about for him to "reschedule". All he can do is what he did. Go through with the assassination and claim that the real Strephon is a fake.

Oh, and kill Strephon's seneshal, Strephon's other doubles, and all the servants who knows about the doubles...


Hans

 

[Shadowfax]

Canonical statements notwithstanding, the Imperium is not a feudal system. It's an autocracy with pseudo-feudal trimmings. Lesser nobles do not swear fealthy to their superiors, they merely report to them. And they are appointed by the Emperor, not by the superior. In fact, except for statements about this noble being a vassal of that noble, there is very little feudal about the setup. It's more like the British or Spanish empires with hereditary governors.
Hans

Yeah, that is always how I thought it was too.

 

[Matt123]

Whilst I like the analogy, it is limited. Imperial Governors report to a beuracracy. As well established, Nobles holding a fief report to a chain of command.

Arguably every Noble 'is' the Emperor when operating within his/her brief. This would include promotion of lesser Nobles. Time/distance neccesitates such delegation of personal authority.

To personally approve every lesser Noble would require an Imperium wide beuracracy and place the beuracracy above the Nobility, whom would rely on it to dole out titles, responsibilities, lands and income. This would fit the role of Governor, but not Nobility as portrayed in canon.

 

[aramis]

The Imperium has shown the nobles as being promoted by the emperor on the suggestion of the sector dukes; only bannerettes and knighthoods can be "locally" conferred, and then it's a domain function. So the Imperium has 3 "layers" of nobles,

_________________[Emperor]___________________
_____________________|_______________________
______+--------------+--------------+________
______|_____________________________|________
_[Archdukes]_________[Duke, Marquis, Count, Baron] « Vassals Imperial
______|______________________________________
______|______________________________________
______|______________________________________
[Bannerettes & Knights]______________________« Vassals Domain; Vauvasars

So technically it is feudal, but only Archdukes subinfeudate. Local military forces, as is proper to feudalism, are raised and in homage to a nobleman. Thus all men are in vassalage to the emperor by no more than 4 steps.

 

[rancke]

Whilst I like the analogy, it is limited. Imperial Governors report to a beuracracy. As well established, Nobles holding a fief report to a chain of command.

So does governors appointed to a post.

Arguably every Noble 'is' the Emperor when operating within his/her brief.

So is a royal governor.

This would include promotion of lesser Nobles. Time/distance neccesitates such delegation of personal authority.

Imperial nobles do not appoint their so-called vassals. Their vassals do not swear fealthy to them but to the Emperor. Imperial nobles probably make reccomandations and the Emperor probably follow such recommandations more often than not, but that's not feudalism.

To personally approve every lesser Noble would require an Imperium wide beuracracy and place the beuracracy above the Nobility, whom would rely on it to dole out titles, responsibilities, lands and income. This would fit the role of Governor, but not Nobility as portrayed in canon.

That's exactly how they're protrayed in canon. Depending on what you accept as canon, of course. If you don't accept GT:Nobles it would be closer to the truth to say that the nobility -- how it works, that is -- isn't really portrayed in canon at all.


Hans

 

[rancke]

So technically it is feudal, but only Archdukes subinfeudate. Local military forces, as is proper to feudalism, are raised and in homage to a nobleman. Thus all men are in vassalage to the emperor by no more than 4 steps.

Archdukes do not subinfeudate. They appoint knights and bannerets, but not in the feudal sense of handing out fiefs in return for fealthy, but in the more modern sense of awards for services rendered.

I don't recall any mention of local military forces swearing fealthy to the nobleman who raised them, and the only mention of forces raised by a nobleman is huscarles - not the majority of military forces. I see no reason to believe any force that was raised by a local nobleman being any more of a feudal force than the troops raised by John Company were.


Hans

 

[aramis]

It matters not why they are created; the bannerettes and knights answer to the archduke, not the emperor, unless in the domain of Sylea. And can be relieved by either the Archduke or the Emperor... vassals in all important respects.

And canon provides that, for the subsector dukes, at least, they are the superior of all the admiralty in their see; their huscarles are for their fief alone, and there is, canonically, no standing "Imperial Army"... only the assembled armies of the various worlds, worlds who officially are represented to the imperium by those same Emperor-Appointed-Nobles, and the huscarles of those same nobles.

Therefore, the Imperial Army, outside of time of war, functionally is the huscarles plus a few HQ's here and there, and the Office of Standards.

 

[rancke]

It matters not why they are created

Wrong. Of course it matters whether they're created to serve a feudal purpose or not.

...the bannerettes and knights answer to the archduke, not the emperor, unless in the domain of Sylea. And can be relieved by either the Archduke or the Emperor... vassals in all important respects.

Do you have any examples of bannerettes and knights "answering" to the archduke who appointed them? The one example I can remember is of the Duke of Deneb knighting the four PCs in the TD "Grand Tour" adventures, which he did on behalf of the Emperor and gave them a free trip to Capital. Which doesn't prove anything one way or the other, since the Domain of Deneb had no archduke at the time.

And canon provides that, for the subsector dukes, at least, they are the superior of all the admiralty in their see;

So, historically, were royal governors. That just proves that subsector dukes are, ex officio, superior to fleet admirals. We also have one very prominent example that shows that subsector dukes are not superior to sector admirals (Santanocheev and Norris; every other "two-star" in the FFW game and Norris).

...their huscarles are for their fief alone,

Huscarles are household troops. I've always assumed that they couldn't be imperialized without the consent of their noble, but the one example we have (Norris' regiment) simply has the unit imperialized at the start of the 5FW, with nothing said one way or the other about his consent. For all the evidence we have, huscarles are subject to imperialization without any consent at all.

Be that as it may, there's nothing to show that other Imperial troops are subject to their dukes as a function of feudal obligation and not as a function of the duke being a direct representative of the Emperor.

...and there is, canonically, no standing "Imperial Army"... only the assembled armies of the various worlds, worlds who officially are represented to the Imperium by those same Emperor-Appointed-Nobles, and the huscarles of those same nobles.

What canon? I thought you didn't accept GT material as canon? :devil:

I could be wrong, but I don't think even GF states that the Unified Armies are under the control of their dukes as opposed to the Emperor rather than under the control of their dukes as representatives of the Emperor.

As for the non-existence of the Imperial Army, I recently saw a quote about the Scouts that I'm sorry I didn't remember back when we were playtesting GF. It said (paraphrased) that the Scouts was an organization every bit as powerful as the Imperial Navy and the Imperial Army. That implies, of course, that the Imperial Army is an organization in its own right, and roughly as powerful as the Navy and the Scouts. Not so?

Therefore, the Imperial Army, outside of time of war, functionally is the huscarles plus a few HQ's here and there, and the Office of Standards.

As I tried to convince Doug Berry back then, if the Imperial Army didn't exist, someone would have to invent it. In the sense that if there's no Imperial Army to coordinate at sector and higher levels, then the Army of the Domain of Sylea (if it exists) or the Army of the Duchy of Core (if it exists) or the Army of Sylea (which most certainly does exist) would take over those functions by default. Much like the Horse Guards in England assumed the functions of the non-existent 'Generalty' and did for the King's Army what the Admiralty did for the Royal Navy.

Not that the existence or non-existence if the Imperial Army says anything about the feudal or non-feudal nature of the relationship between the Emperor and his dukes.


Hans