Dyson Spheres revisited

[Blue Ghost]

I have a draft of an adventure of a group of players who have to deal with a Dyson sphere, and by sphere I mean an actual hard shell construction (or its remains), and not a "swarm" as I've seen some reference it.

I seem to recall in GT there is a single Dyson Sphere (or again, the remains of one) in some area of minority-race space, possibly within the Imperium, or just outside it.

The adventure I drafted two years ago cannot take place within the OTU because of some obscure factoid about there being no Dyson Sphere (or again, so I recall ... I'm willing to admit my wrongness on this), but it does make me wonder if there might be such structures outside known space, and what would their frequency or commonality be like.

I ask this, and I think about the 3I because there's a futurist on YouTube (Issac Arthur? I can't remember) who predicts that it's more likely that races, once they achieve a certain level of technology, are apt to harness their star with mega-structures than explore space. I'm in the "explore space" camp, but it makes me wonder about the possibilities of Dyson megastructures within or without the Imperium. Maybe in one of the black hexes that don't have a star; i.e. a kind of "rogue world", only super huge, but otherwise nearly undetectable.

What do you think?

 

[whulorigan]

I seem to recall in GT there is a single Dyson Sphere (or again, the remains of one) in some area of minority-race space, possibly within the Imperium, or just outside it.

It is on the Far Side of the Hive Federation, facing the Trailing Frontier (Nooq 3201).

 

[Nathan Brazil]

The adventure I drafted two years ago cannot take place within the OTU because of some obscure factoid about there being no Dyson Sphere

The factoid is that Mr. Miller, the IP holder, de-canonized previously written ringworlds and Dyson spheres in Charted Space. His reasons for doing so, I can only speculate.

This is not to say that Charted Space can never have them. From RAW standpoint, the Traveller 5 rules state they are possible.
TL Structure
24 Rosettes
25 Multi-capsule Dysons
26 World Scale Constructs
27 Ringworlds
29 Rigid Sphere Dysons
But considering that Reality Manipulation ("do overs" aka "time travel") is TL 27 and The Technological Singularity (where the species "transcends" out of our universe) is TL 33, this should give you an idea on the likelyhood of these structures existing.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Yeah, I remember something along those lines about dumping them, but I can't recall the reason. I think the counter to the TL argument is that things like dyson spheres and orbital rings and such aren't high tech as such, just very expensive and requiring a lot of force.

But, I don't know. What do you personally think?

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Within that context, we can speculate what might be found in Charted Space.

I personally think, a fully functional populated Dyson would take away from the 3rd Imperium as a setting. The Third Imperium occupies around 8800-8900 systems with a mainworld population of around 15 trillion. If ringworlds provide "millions of Earths" and Dysons even more, the questions arise about why haven't the inhabitants taken over the rest of the Imperium? If it is regressed technology or much smaller population, why hasn't the Imperium taken it over? Even the refuse and scraps of TL 29 technology could revolutionize the the nature of Charted Space.

One example is like the one in Ringworld. Even the inhabitant in the books stole the Ringworld stabilizing thrusters. The did not need know how a ringworld operates or is made, The just stole the tech. Or the Imperium might want the a closer look at the solar powered asteroid defense laser if one exists

The meta reason would be it would invalidate the settings already existing elements. I could accept that a Dyson sphere is "newly discovered" within or near the 3I and make it a new campaign, but this would, I think in a longer term, the 3I would change. Everyone will want even TL24 toilet paper...

As an alternative though, perhaps the 3I knows of them and has them Quarantined to the point where they don't even show up on the maps. Why? Same reasons (pop/TL).
You even accidentally misjump into the system, you are destroyed. But you know the more people who know the secret...

 

[kilemall]

Fun ways to be on the trail of a DS-

• Star on ancient maps is no longer there. No evidence of black hole, nova, nebula remnants, etc. Stars don't just disappear.
• Gravitational pull of system and star that isn't there on nearby objects, but mathematically has to be there.
• Every navigator, astrophysicist, crank etc. that evinces interest in the topic disappears.
• A DS that's big enough can readily cause dumping out of jump. 100 AU diameter limits leaves one in a lot of empty space and a big neon sign saying gravitic sink thisaway. Of course, if the party is smart they will jump out ASAP before someone insanely high tech detects and deals with them..

 

[infojunky]

To be honest I am a fan of the classic Dyson's Sphere which some people refer to as a Dyson Swarm. And as such building such around a small stable star shouldn't be all that difficult. Source of materials is the biggest issue.

Materials is the real issue for many of the macro-structures.

I also should not that I am in the Populated Universe camp. With far more inhabited "worlds" than the Main World system would indicate.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, I think as improbable as it is, there is the possibility that a civilization with 1950s or 1960s rocket and guidance technology, given an abundance or resources, in theory, could build such a structure. It would just be extremely expensive. That verse a steam era civ which would have no electronic computational ability, and also not have the material science needed to create suits and space craft hulls to deal with stellar radiation, and therefore be incapable of building such a beast.

So, a DS, again in theory, might be ruled or run by a society that was in the technological 1960s or 1970s. Therefore it may not pose a threat to the 3I, and in fact, given whoever's in charge of the Imperium (say during the emperors of the flag era), it might prove to be target practice or resource to be mined for materials.

Again, just speculation. But in practical game terms it probably would imbalance the game and/or official setting in some degree or form--though a casual house rules or generic non-OTU setting might benefit.

 

[flykiller]

a small stable star

are stars stable?

 

[Barrel]

Larry Niven wrote an essay for one of his short story collections asking "where is all the extraterrestrial life"? One of his possible answers was that there are plenty of ETs, but living in Dyson Spheres they've built around their stars. What we think are many red dwarf stars are actually the residual heat signatures radiating from the outside of the spheres.

 

[aramis]

are stars stable?

From what's in current papers, small and stable are antithetical.

 

[infojunky]

are stars stable?

Well some are more so than others, think down at the bottom end of the main sequence....

 

[Blue Ghost]

One of my big issues with Dyson Spheres is heat. I guess with a swarm you're building a network of "worldlettes". so I'm not really clear on their concept. But with a hard shell heat buildup becomes a real big issue.

I'm not sure why I brought this up again, but it always struck me something worth exploring for the 3I, or even post 3I into TNE and beyond. I have issues with the concept and engineering of one of these things, but they are kind of fascinating food for imaginations.

 

[Thot]

Dyson spheres, yes, take away the need for space exploration. If you can build this much real estate from a single system, why bother with a jump drive?

However, Yaskoydray and his Ancients might have built a few, only to find out that there was some inherent flaw in them: Maybe the gravitics overlapping in this way have problematic, not immediately noticeable side effects? Or maybe they are extremely vulnerable to attack and accident?

 

[flykiller]

What we think are many red dwarf stars are actually the residual heat signatures radiating from the outside of the spheres.

that's a whole lotta ET's ....

think down at the bottom end of the main sequence....

makes sense.

I have issues with the concept and engineering of one of these things

the amount of energy and/or time required to build one would be astounding. one wonders what would become of the culture that had the need and drive and reason to build one, having succeeded.

Dyson spheres, yes, take away the need for space exploration.

the need yes, but not the drive. "go west young man."

 

[Blue Ghost]

I think the resources and social patience required to construct one are the major hurdles. In terms of Traveller, I don't see a DS as being neccesarily high-tech, though a civilization that had mastered manipulation of gravity and such, would probably find it easier to build (if they desired) than a 1950s or 1960's TL society that had mastered sending things up into space.

I don't see one of these things as being neccesarily populated to the brim. That is just because it can hold billions and billions (or trillions) or people, doesn't mean that they would.

From a gaming standpoint, mapping one of these things would be a project and a half. And traversing one would take lots of time and resources (fuel).

It seems probably that Grandfather and his rebellious kiddies at the very least contemplated one of these things. I'm guessing they probably proved to be too fragile for whatever purpose they had--given what eventually happened.

Oh well.

 

[flykiller]

That is just because it can hold billions and billions (or trillions) or people, doesn't mean that they would.

are you kidding? if it held 100 trillion people that would be 345 square miles per person. the population expansion it permitted would develop over thousands of years and would carry on past capacity on sheer intertia. imagine china x 1 billion ....

maybe it would devolve into a morlock/eloi culture ....

mapping one of these things would be a project and a half.

anakin: "has anyone seen it all?"

obee-wan: "not likely."

anakin: "I wanna be the first one to visit it all!"

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, a D&D or high fantasy setting on one would be interesting.

 

[flykiller]

Well, a D&D or high fantasy setting on one would be interesting.

something (plague, killer bots) has wiped out 99.99% of the population, leaving only 1 trillion inhabitants, and the adventurers spend thousands of lifetimes combing the nearly infinite tech 0-25 ruins ... only to find their world is but an insignificantly small portion of an infinite universe ....

 

[Blue Ghost]

I was thinking more high fantasy, with lots of dragons, unicorns, magic of all sorts, travel to other planes and that kind of thing. It might be fun.