casquilho
SOC-13
Hum, I thought it was an Idgie Threadgoode joke....
General Eating Vegan in the Imperium
- Thread starter Spinward Scout
- Start date
Krikkitone
SOC-12
Where does that say “freedom from murder” is a “immunity, protection, right or privilege granted by the Imperium” There may be worlds where certain social classes can be killed/ cannibalized on a whim. (just as long as they aren’t chattel slaves)
Interesting.
Outright murder is fine. But force labor is right out.
At best, ritualistic murder is aloud, but I would think the participants need to be voluntary.
...and we won't go into the black hole of capital punishment.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
In the future it would be anachronistic, but the point of the game is that most humans would be required to labour in order not to starve.
If you inherited wealth, you don't.
In which case, you're likely to settle in a state with strong property rights.
If you inherited wealth, you don't.
In which case, you're likely to settle in a state with strong property rights.
Krikkitone
SOC-12
Forced labor is ok*… just not chattel slavery. Basically no shipping slaves through the space lanes. But serfdom, penal labor, laws that X is the only job you are allowed to get and if you don’t do it you won’t eat (or get air in your cabin)…. etc. those are all SOP.
*unless the most highly ranked noble to take an interest in it decides otherwise (the laws are flexible in how they are applied)
As a side note, murder is illegal by definition. If a killing is not illegal, it’s not murder. In some societies, killing in self-defense is not murder, in others honor killings are not murders. (or lotteries, duels, punishing a bad subordinate, etc)
Whether the 3I gets involved depends on how much trouble it causes the local noble. (rule of men..not laws)
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
If a world has a slave owning culture the Imperium will not do anything about it.
They would prohibit trading slaves on interstellar markets.
They would prohibit trading slaves on interstellar markets.
So what are the “... immunities, protections, rights or privileges granted by the Imperium ...” to individual sophonts at the Imperial level, either in canonical sources or in your estimation? What are included and what are not, understanding that the Imperium exercises rather minimalist oversight of world governments and their associated cultures?
At what point is the above statement rendered effectively meaningless by what it does not grant as a protection or immunity to a sophont that it is declaring one of its own citizens?
Here is the quote restated again:
Krikkitone
SOC-12
Nobles (all nobles are citizens) would have a bunch of rights privileges etc granted to them by the Imperium that member worlds can’t abridge.
The right to travel through Imperial space (more than 0.1 diameters from world surface) may not be abridged by member worlds.
Note: it doesn’t say the Imperium can’t abridge these rights that certain citizens may receive, just that member worlds can’t.
The only thing All citizens get is the not being shipped through the starlanes as property.
(There are probably some others … there is probably some degree of stated rules to help trade work, but those are probably very loosely enforced.)
The Warrant above says nothing about Nobles. It says: "The lmperium considers as citizens any living recognized sentient creature native to or naturalized by a member world of the lmperium, or any living recognized sentient creature swearing fealty to the lmperium directly"
It is this group to whom the rights apply that cannot be abridged by member worlds.
This is not the issue being discussed.
The Anti-Slavery prohibition is Article VI:
Where is the statement or implication made in the Warrant that only immunities, protections, rights, or privileges specifically mentioned or noted in the Warrant itself are included in the categories so described? The Imperium may grant by decree as it chooses apart from explicit statements made by the Warrant, and they still fall under the categories so described, as worded in the Warrant. If the Imperium will not protect its own citizens from murder by the governments of members worlds (whether by direct action or permissivity of the actions of others), then why would it concern itself with chattel slavery, being at heart a Trade Federation promoting interstellar trade and profit?
While I would likely not dispute this, nevertheless, there is nothing in the Warrant that explicitly states this either. By your reasoning this cannot be considered a guaranteed right.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
You can't legally own someone.
Outright.
Outright.
casquilho
SOC-13
Including replicants or PROLEs.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Canon would disagree.
Krikkitone
SOC-12
The Imperium grants all sorts of rights etc. to Specific groups of citizens. Some rights/privileges etc. are for all citizens (no chattel slavery), many rights, privileges are for specific groups of citizens (nobles, imperial agents, etc.).
If an imperial citizen has a right the imperium granted them for any reason (all citizens get it or all nobles have it, or the imperial transport bureaucrat has it) a member world may not abridge it.
It is probably an imperial crime to kill any imperial citizen in imperial space(ie a starport or in space).
However, that doesn’t mean imperial citizens have a right to life.
If you show up on a high LL world and get executed for sneezing, or on a low LL world and get lynched for not being green. In neither of those cases is the Imperium going to do anything about it …,unless
-you are a noble / imperial agent who isn’t completely persona non grata
-the local noble wants to pressure the world or use the tragedy to boost their own pr.
As mentioned, they are interested in maintaining trade, so there’s probably a lot of rules the imperium applies to “imperial space” that help keep trade flowing, but many of those rules don’t give rights, etc. that protect anyone on member worlds.
Killing someone is usually going to get the killer in trouble (with either the local law or the other inhabitants) on most member worlds. However, that’s not guaranteed by the imperium.
Vargr's say- Vegans taste like chicken.
Best places to eat.
"Kentucky Fried Vegan"
"Vegan-fil-A"
"Raising Cane's Vegan Fingers"
"McDonald's Vegan McNuggets"
Best recipes
Vegan fried rice
Orange Vegan
Vegan Pot Pie
Vegan Taco
Vegan and Dumplings
Best places to eat.
"Kentucky Fried Vegan"
"Vegan-fil-A"
"Raising Cane's Vegan Fingers"
"McDonald's Vegan McNuggets"
Best recipes
Vegan fried rice
Orange Vegan
Vegan Pot Pie
Vegan Taco
Vegan and Dumplings
Agreed.
But that is a different issue.
- Saying that it is an "immunity, protection, right or privilege granted by the Imperium" is one thing.
- Saying that the Imperium will take a personal interest in enforcing it, as opposed to expecting that individual worlds will enforce it as expected as a part of adherence to their membership agreement, is quite another thing entirely.
- And saying that the Imperium will actually intervene against worlds that are not vigilant in their responsibilities is always a matter of how decadent the Imperium has become at the local and/or regional level in any given period or place.
I understand the point you are making, and that the primary point of Imperial Law is to promote free trade, not govern member worlds and their cultures, but if the Imperium is going to consider the inhabitants of its member worlds as Imperial Citizens as opposed to mere subjects of Empire, then certain basic rights are going to adhere to them wherever they go (at least in theory - practice may be quite different as noted above).
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
It should be noted, that an option for Vegan Rice, is an option to substitute it for human, which tastes like pork, or have both.
This may give you gout.
This may give you gout.
Peter Newman
SOC-12
Eating people is different than killing people so that you can eat them. When I was playing MT, back in the day, I rolled up sophontophagism as a planetary trait for my characters TL7 airless rockball home planet (using the MT World Builders Handbook). This was a one in 216 chance. I decided that this was a bad idea, so I rolled again. I got the same result. I took it to my Ref and said "Hey Will, this is what I rolled up for my character, but I am not sure this is a good idea.' He said "I'll roll again." He also got sophontophagism....
This is why it is canon IMTU that the inhabitants of Dojodo (Spinward Marches 3223 C 512311-7) eat people, but don't murder them to do so. I assume that it is more a question of recycling scarce resources in a tasty way.
This is why it is canon IMTU that the inhabitants of Dojodo (Spinward Marches 3223 C 512311-7) eat people, but don't murder them to do so. I assume that it is more a question of recycling scarce resources in a tasty way.
Krikkitone
SOC-12
That I would see as not to uncommon. At a certain TL, understanding of prion diseases may allow them to be prevented fairly easily, which removes the only objective reason for not chowing down at the funeral of a respected enemy or beloved family member (which has been done in a number of Terran cultures with the downside of prion diseases spreading)
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