Economics of a Mercenary Campaign

[aramis]

One thing that has been a reality of MTU is that Mercs will often ship by slow-boats they have invested in as a source of payroll. Sure, it's a huge hunk of slow moving capital, but it allows them to be near or at when the predicted war breaks out.

A paid off bit of hardware is a valuable asset that costs not more than 10% per year to keep going. So, unless it sits 10 years or more, it's worth retaining.

Bill: I disagree about disbanding post-action. Makes little sense for most of the non-cadre-only type units. I do agree that some are cadre-only, and these go for specific types of actions, often for extended periods of "hearts and minds" ala US Army Green Berets, or for "We need to train our peasants NOW" type missions.

Here's a contract up for bid.... work out your costs:

Situation: Wypoc/Lanth is seeking a unit for defending an off-world but in-system station from potential Zhodani threats. Barracks, LS and food for 100 sophonts provided for 2 year contract. Report date 120 days from this notice. 120-1105. 200Td of 6m tall hangar space available. Exterior ranges can be established; several thousand hectares of useable exterior desert. No civilian populace at destination. Expected threat level platoon to battalion strength Zhodani army; mission to delay Zhodani until facility can be destroyed if facility in danger of being taken. Local gravity 0.5G, atmosphere at surface 80mB (Trace) CO2/Nitrogen mix, daily average temperatures 200K-290K ±30K seasonal.

Submit bids to Baronial office soonest via IISS.

Pick your world, and submit a bid... TO&E, costs, and bid proposal.

Next week, I'll give the details on what is ACTUALLY there and why they'd do this.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Certainly, but do you have canon examples of Mercenary units being based around less than a platoon that recruits in order to fill tickets?

Bruce,

Isn't that why they're talking to the PCs in the first place? To put a platoon together?

As for the rest of it, none of it matters. Until you show us the money, it is all supposition.

I'm saying the canon ticket fees do work and can support the canoncial description of the merc business if we simply add factors A, B, and C to the mix. You're saying the canon ticket fees do not work because they cannot support your interpretation of how the merc business should work.

I'm accepting canon at face value and trying to figure out how the business can work given the canonical information. You've decided how the merc business should work and are now trying to get canon to fit your preconception.

I'm bending canon, keeping as much as possible and trying to make the theory fit the facts. You're breaking canon, keeping only what you feel is 'correct' and discarding those facts which doesn't fit your preconcieved theory.

In my model, the canonical tickets can be filled by the canonical sized units at the canonical fees and a profit made. In your model, the canonical tickets must be filled by canonical sized units at inflated fees before any hope of a profit can be made.

So, which model does more violence to canon? Remember, the closer a model is to canon, the more people there are who can use it. Which model is closer to canon? The canon bender or the canon breaker?

Also, you still need to wrap your head around the nature of Traveller's communication and travel lag. Given cell phone and commsat world we all live in, all of us have to shake off the presumption of rapid, if not instantaneous, communications. Taking months to negotiate or recruit may seem like a waste of time to you, but in the Traveller universe comm lags measured in months are the norm even within a subsector. The nature of OTU comm lag is something that even tripped up GDW and other published authors, the 'broken' FFW dates in CT's 'Spinward Marches Campaign are a good example of this.

Much of the rapidity and 'knee jerk' response times you read into the canonical tickets are in actuality your own cultural biases. You subconciously assume that OTU merc tickets are let on a Monday, filled on a Wednesday, and completed on a Friday because that's how the real world operates. However, given the nature of jump drive, that's not how the OTU can operate.

So, again, show us the money. Show us how your model of the OTU merc business can work while doing as little violence to canon as possible. You first need to exhaust all possibilities before you declare the canonical ticket fees broken.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[flykiller]

But the evidence ....

ad hoc statements in an ad hoc fantasy role-playing game really aren't evidence. given OTU assumptions it's clear that independent mercenary companies that rise above the level of cadre/commando will be scarce if they exist at all. this is just one of those things that just has to be passed over to play a mercenary group in the OTU.

'course, if you're desperate for the books to balance there are ways to do it. if only governments and megacorps can afford merc units, then so be it ...

1) there are always governments that have trouble with some region of their legal territory. the amazon, the opium-growing regions of thailand, and most of afghanistan come to mind. "now we're not officially at war you understand, we can't do that, but over the next year or two you boys will be expected to ...."

2) megacorporations will always have local problems. "we have legal permission from the government to tap these oil fields, but lawless local natives object. we need you to clear them out by year's end."

3) megacorporations may fight by proxy. "corporation x thinks they can get away with outbidding us for these oil fields, but if you can regularly lob artillery onto their well heads for the next six months and make it look like native opposition we'll be able to outbid them next year."

4) lots of room for religion here. "our interstellar missionary and charity outreach efforts are the most effective in the subsector, but we face much opposition. join Los Conquistadores and bear the sword of God!"

5) given this paradigm some space action clearly is available. say tukera lines is faced with some low-level piracy that the imperium just doesn't have time or resources to deal with. tukera will put together its own forces to suppress it, with or without imperial knowledge and blessing.

lots and lots of merc action here, and all of it fully paid-for.

 

[sid6.7]

well i ran through 1 6 month ticket(simplisticly)
includes ship for resupply and reinforcements.

using my 1.46 million per month in expenses for
6 months is 8.76 million + damages/ammo of 780k
this covered 3 engagments with 60 men killed
i had to recruit 2 times 23 and 27 men, i lost
10 in the last one. so my platoon left with 38.
---------
= 9.54 million in costs...

if i use 1.33 i get a ticket of 11.65 million

or about a 2 million credit profit after 6 months
of a standard operation...1m to CO. 1m to men
-----------------------------------------

i took another 6 month ticket and purposed
i lost either my AFV or my Heli, i rolled
the AFV or 7,000,000 to replace.

i had 1 million from previous and 1 million
from the second or 2 million in profits then
subtract the AFV i am 5 million in the WHOLE.
--------------

@ 1.5 = 1 tour/ 13.14 ticket or a 3.74 profit
2 tour same
so 7.4 million in profit - 7 millon
for AFV equals 400,000k profit.
so 200k to CO. 200k to men

@ 1.75 = 1 tour/ 15.33 million or 6.75 in profit
2 tour same
so 13.5 million in profit - 7
for AFV equals 6.5 million profit
or 3.25m to Co. and 3.25m to men.


needless to say that is what i would consider
minor losses 60 men and 1 AFV....

between tickets lets say i am lucky and get
a new ticket 1 month after the other is over
i still have 1.46 million in monthly expenses
so now 1.33 and 1.5 create losses for me.

if i were to go more then 3 months without
a ticket 1.46 x 3 then even 1.75 creates a loss
for me....

i still say it is best if you try to design
tickets for your players of no less then
(expenses X 1.75) = ticket total....

if your client provided the ship you might
squeeze out some profit at 1.5 but you'll
take a loss at 1.33.

so regardless of canon or what we WANT to happen
clients have to pay a hefty price for mercs
whether they like it or not.

i also noticed that in some of the canon
tickets they dont stress tech levels i think
we would make an assumption that a merc unit
would look for tickets where they are 1 tech
above the opponent also then there is more
of a chance for success tickets....

also we were talking about incomes it does
NOT ness. have to be using your ships
commerically while on a tour...previous
profits can be put into legit companys and
stock to create the income needed to run
a privately owned merc unit. then on the other
hand during "OFF" times they could easly
(if they have thier own ship) looting small
defenseless low tech worlds for more booty.

with that in mind and given the size of the
imperium it wouldnt be too much a stretch to
assume a dozen or so merc co. are prowling
around doing full time merc work in the imperium
of the platoon or company size and maybe 1-2
brigade size units if they've been at it
long enough and invested thier profits wisely.

for example the 1 canon ticket offers .1%
holding worth a 30,000,000 value if you
already had a bit of money in the bank the
merc unit would have a venture on a planet
during down times that produes a yearly or
quarterly income.

it doesnt say if thats yearly or just total
value so since were rpg'ing use your imagination.
we dont have to go overboard on realism it ruins the game.(my opinion)

are we done yet?

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by flykiller:
ad hoc statements in an ad hoc fantasy role-playing game really aren't evidence.

Fly,

Well put.

given OTU assumptions it's clear that independent mercenary companies that rise above the level of cadre/commando will be scarce if they exist at all.

Yes. Not non-existent, just scarce.

this is just one of those things that just has to be passed over to play a mercenary group in the OTU.

Again, yes. If the players are just a squad leader and his squad, why should they be worried about the 'nuts & bolts' financial work that went on behind the scenes when their platoon/company was hired. The GM announcing, through their commander of course, that they've been hired by Arglebargle-IX to raid a mining complex should be enough.

'course, if you're desperate for the books to balance there are ways to do it. if only governments and megacorps can afford merc units, then so be it ...

Again, yes. This was my first point in this thread. The big units with the big toys are going to either be wholly owned by someone or subsidized in various ways by someone or someones. The monetary requirements simply demand.

And because they're owned or subsidized, they're going to come with strings attached. Strings their current employers may or may not know about.

Let me use Drake's latest Slammers book as an example. SPOILER ALERT


The Slammers sign on to fight for a loose consortium of nations on a planet. The planet produces a form of 'unobtanium', a natural resource found no where else. Making matters trickier, only certain parts of the planet produce the 'unobtanium' and those parts are not could for either farming or building a starport. This has split the planet up. One nation in the 'center' farms and works the port while the rest produce the unobtanium. The war kicks off when the farming/port nation hikes it's handling fees and food prices.

As the book goes on, the Slammers first become involved in internal politics of consortium member nations and then find themselves on what is going to be the losing end of a long war. Yes, the Slammers are going to lose. It seems the farming/port nation is simply burying them in off-world mercs, importing more and more units while the Slammer's side has a fixed number under no real central command. Col. Hammer launches an all out attack on the starport in order to grab the ultimate bargaining chip and succeeds. (Naturally).

Now comes the tricky part.

Right after the Slammers grab the port and a shaky ceasefire is put in place, the real people behind the war show up. Another planet who purchases most of the 'unobtanium' lands a division on the port and announces they now own it. It seems they had demanded the farming/port nation raise its prices and then had backed that nation financially throughout the war. The war has all but destroyed both sides on-world and the other planet is calling in it's debts. They own and run the port, setting prices as they see fit.

Col. Hammer has something up his sleeve however. In a few days he has a group of new employers - a third group of other planets that want to break the first planet's monopoly on 'unobtanium' purchases. The Slammers destroy the off-world division, retake the port, and turn it over to the local nations, who immediately negotiate an exclusive export pact with the third group.

Here's the kicker: The Slammers had that deal in place before they even began fighting on the planet for their original employers.

You tell me. What would make for a richer RPG campaign experience? Running your merc players through some lopsided TL12 vs local rubes, XP harvesting, dungeon crawl? Or throwing them a bunch of financially derived curveballs like those in the Slammer's novel above? Even if they're 'only' squad leaders, a ticket like the one Drake wrote has to be a far richer RPG experience.

YMMV.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by sid6.7:
are we done yet?

Sid,

I think we are.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Liam Devlin]

And thanks for helping me pass 4.5 hours of really slow time at work wading through all this! Man what a read.

Bill-thanks for the spoiler on the new Drake novel, btw! Now there's a twister of a ticket!

 

[BetterThanLife]

OK Lets say that Mercs are Megacorp security services, Noble Husculares, and National Armies on their day off virtually exclusively.

First Nobles are not supposed to get involved in local politics so Husculares overthrowing local governments, even on some independent contract, (Or supporting Local governments) would draw the displeasure of the rest of the Nobility. After the Noble's Husculares are an extension of the Noble.

Second, Megacorp Security Forces. Again there are problems if the Megacorps interfere with the local planets. If it is demonstrated it will cause additional problems. Hence roughly half the tickets are sponsored by one Corp or another, who can't get directly involved.

Third System Militaries, loaned out. There are rules against using your forces elsewhere. (Same issues as above.)

Therefore it is definitely implied that Mercenary Units can be independent and are at best only partially owned by one of the above factors.

But that still doesn't make a difference when it comes to profitability of a Mercenary Unit. The unit still has to meet its expenses. Any unit that is going to actually be in combat, is going to spend more money on small arms ammo per firefight than salary per week. Double Standard Salaries as renumeration for a ticket, where the patron is not supplying the expendables, is not going to produce a profit under any circumstances.

Getting into a 3 month campaign on a mid pop world with a Tech Base 2+ levels below what your unit is equipped to, without access to outside sources for replacements (both parts and manpower) will dwindle your unit down to nothing during that same time period. Training for people recruited at a TL of one below yours, should be no less than 2 weeks, for veterans, in fact I am willing to say Tech level difference+1 x2 weeks would be minimal (And if it is recruiting from a higher Tech world, then still a minimum of 2 weeks.). You think a US Soldier that got out of the service 10 years ago could just join a Ranger BN today and be ready for a Commando raid the next morning? The weapon systems haven't changed that much on a small arms level. Isn't it still Infantry Tactics, which every soldier learns?

Lets talk about divesting the equipment between tickets.

Selling your equipment between tickets means you have to have quite a bit more capital on hand than if you kept the equipment. You buy a Tank for one mission. Sell it at the end of the mission. (You likely took a loss here, probably got 50% for it at the end. On a MCr7 tank you just took a Capital loss of MCr3.5.) Next ticket you need a tank again, but this time you would prefer a Heavy Tank. You shell out MCr20 this time. At the end of the ticket you sell it and you get MCr10 back. Doing this, over the course of 2 tickets you have lost, with only one tank involved, MCr13.5. Where is that expense covered? And you didn't even lose the tank. Oh I know the Mega Corp backers of the unit don't care about profitability and are simply willing to write this off as expenses? Per Tank?

There certainly isn't a ticket that allows this kind of capital expenditure to successfully run a Mercenary unit as a business. Forget about your troops needing to get familiar with the new piece of equipment between when you get the ticket and secure the new piece of equipment, and then commence operations. After all a T72 is the same as a T80 or an M60, or a Challenger or a Leopard, or a Merkava, or a LeClerc, or an M1, isn't it?
It is just forward, backward, left, right, point the business end in the general direction of the bad guys and um, is it squeeze a trigger or push a button? They all use the same maintenance and have the same engine don't they? You break track the same way with each of those right? They do all use the same ammo right? (For those that don't know they are all main battle tanks, produced at or modified to the current tech level.) No training is required, after all these guys are all "Mercenaries!"

You said show you the money. That is why I started this thread, to figure out how the money works. Adding additional economic losses to the equation, such as divesting yourself of the equipment after a ticket. doesn't solve the economic situation with the current crop of canon tickets, it compounds the issue. Unless each ticket pays sufficiently to buy a full new set of equipment and pay the expendable supplies and salaries, as well as generate a profit, and none of the current tickets do that, how does taking a loss in capital on your equipment after each ticket improve the profit margin of a Unit? I am trying to get a reasonable number to account for combat losses per ticket, you are adding expenses, in capital amounts, without even suffering combat loses.

There isn't sufficient canon material to calculate it as is. But there needs to be a way that makes sense, after all Mercenary Campaigns are and have always been one of the more popular types of Traveller campaigns. For all of that popularity it is definitely under explored.

Some of the tickets, just looking at things like small arms ammunition expenditure, are clearly under financed. You can bend the rules, but this is definitely broken.

Further some of the tickets clearly suggest that many of these units are independent. (Perhaps not independent to the point that they have no outside backers, but independent of major Megacorp, Government or Nobel influence.) After all if they weren't independent then why would LSP hire Mercs, they could just send their own guys. Or perhaps they want to give Instellarms or Stern Metal Horizons, the Mineral Rights and some influence, in the first ticket.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
But that still doesn't make a difference when it comes to profitability of a Mercenary Unit. The unit still has to meet its expenses.

For company men this is not strictly true.

If a "patron" (in whatever form) needed to maintain a military arm "just in case", then a MCr 10 per month unit that earns MCr 5 per month from tickets still costs less to maintain than a MCr 10 per month unit that earns MCr 0 per month from tickets.

It is really no different than rebels selling drugs to afford weapons to continue the revolution. It just happens out of view, so the rules don't care about it.

This is not my favorite view, it is just one view that could work.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Lets talk about divesting the equipment between tickets.

Selling your equipment between tickets means you have to have quite a bit more capital on hand than if you kept the equipment. You buy a Tank for one mission. Sell it at the end of the mission. (You likely took a loss here, probably got 50% for it at the end. On a MCr7 tank you just took a Capital loss of MCr3.5.) Next ticket you need a tank again, but this time you would prefer a Heavy Tank. You shell out MCr20 this time. At the end of the ticket you sell it and you get MCr10 back. Doing this, over the course of 2 tickets you have lost, with only one tank involved, MCr13.5. Where is that expense covered? And you didn't even lose the tank. Oh I know the Mega Corp backers of the unit don't care about profitability and are simply willing to write this off as expenses? Per Tank?

But I did offer to rent that MCr 7 tank to you for Cr 70,000 per month plus a MCr 7 bond that you get back if you return the tank. And I would be happy to rent that MCr 20 tank to you for Cr 200,000 per month plus a MCr 20 bond. You need more capital on hand, but a Cr 70,000 per ticket cost for a tank is much better than a MCr 3.5 cost to buy and resell it.

And I pay shipping.

[PS at 1/100 cost per month with no risk to me, I earn a lot more renting weapons than financing Starships at 1/240 Cost per month.]

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by atpollard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Lets talk about divesting the equipment between tickets.

Selling your equipment between tickets means you have to have quite a bit more capital on hand than if you kept the equipment. You buy a Tank for one mission. Sell it at the end of the mission. (You likely took a loss here, probably got 50% for it at the end. On a MCr7 tank you just took a Capital loss of MCr3.5.) Next ticket you need a tank again, but this time you would prefer a Heavy Tank. You shell out MCr20 this time. At the end of the ticket you sell it and you get MCr10 back. Doing this, over the course of 2 tickets you have lost, with only one tank involved, MCr13.5. Where is that expense covered? And you didn't even lose the tank. Oh I know the Mega Corp backers of the unit don't care about profitability and are simply willing to write this off as expenses? Per Tank?

But I did offer to rent that MCr 7 tank to you for Cr 70,000 per month plus a MCr 7 bond that you get back if you return the tank. And I would be happy to rent that MCr 20 tank to you for Cr 200,000 per month plus a MCr 20 bond. You need more capital on hand, but a Cr 70,000 per ticket cost for a tank is much better than a MCr 3.5 cost to buy and resell it. </font>[/QUOTE]That requires lots of capital on hand to do it, but it certainly makes more sense than selling it after the ticket. Do I get a break for a large order? What kind of stock do you maintain on hand? Does that include insurance?

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />this is just one of those things that just has to be passed over to play a mercenary group in the OTU.

Again, yes. If the players are just a squad leader and his squad, why should they be worried about the 'nuts & bolts' financial work that went on behind the scenes when their platoon/company was hired. The GM announcing, through their commander of course, that they've been hired by Arglebargle-IX to raid a mining complex should be enough.</font>[/QUOTE]The background financial work, perhaps not, unless they are part owners. The profitability of the ticket and the unit in general? Absolutely! Every Rifleman, every Private, every driver, clerk, ammo bearer is going to care about that. Why? Because Mercenaries don't fight for King and Country. They don't fight for the Glorious Socialist Revolution. They don't fight for the Stars and Stripes. Or any number of other reasons. Mercenaries, by definition, fight for MONEY!

Paraphrased from LBB4, page 19, the economics of a ticket are as follows. The ticket is paid. The expenses are deducted and the balance is then split in half. One half goes to the owners and backers as profit and the other half is divided among the Mercenaries in the form of shares. If the Unit commander is also part owner than he gets paid from both pots.

This implies that there is a profit. In order to calculate the profit you have to be able to calculate the expenses. There is no reference for how to calculate these expenses. Even if the initial equipment was provided by Santa Claus, with no strings attached, there has to be an accounting for repairing and/or replacing equipment, especially major end items. Further there has to be an accounting for consumables, such as ammunition, explosives, food, fuel, etc. So while initial funding may or may not be that important to the big picture, unless the players are actually forming a Mercenary Unit, not just joining one, the profit margin is the important, issue, if the unit expenses does include paying off initial equipment then it is definitely going to effect the bottom line.

Since Mercenaries fight for money, and since the money they get paid is directly related to how profitable the Unit is and how much the ticket pays, they are going to have a serious interest in the economics side of things. (Perhaps as far as the players are concerned not initially but very shortly after their first bonus check.)

 

[atpollard]

Have we considered looting to boost profits? I understand that it has a long and sucessfull track record.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by atpollard:
Have we considered looting to boost profits? I understand that it has a long and sucessfull track record.

ROFLMAO! I think the person paying the ticket, in many cases, would object. Besides it isn't a reputation that a unit wants. Perhaps if you called it Strategic Recovery Of Lost Assets and use the Acronym of SROLA?

Maybe an RP&B operation. (Rape Pillage and Burn.

)

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
thanks for the spoiler on the new Drake novel, btw! Now there's a twister of a ticket!

Liam,

It certainly looked like there was more spoiler space in the message wondow when I typed it.

I wrote the spoiler warning and then hit 'return' until that line stepped up out of the top of the window. Somehow all that space translated to only few lines when the message posted.

FWIW, you can get the novel I wrote as a FREE download at the Baen website.


Have fun reading,
Bill

 

[flykiller]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The unit still has to meet its expenses.

For company men this is not strictly true.</font>[/QUOTE]for the organization overall, it is. for the military unit, it isn't. military ops could be viewed as an operating expense, the costs of which will be passed along to the customer or back to the membership.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
First Nobles are not supposed to get involved in local politics...

Bruce,

In the Warrant of Restoration, the Imperium reserves the right to interfere wherever and whenever it deems appropriate. Using semi-deniable, third party forces like huscarles on their 'day off' is a perfect fig leaf.

Second, Megacorp Security Forces. Again there are problems if the Megacorps interfere with the local planets.

Which, of course, is why LSP is arming Clan Hardretter on Marstan, why 'outside' corporations have subsidized the nation of Stepozhevac and the Free Commerc Bloc on Porozlo, and why Sternmetal is is subsidizing the nation of Lovrenyi on Aramanx.

Hence roughly half the tickets are sponsored by one Corp or another, who can't get directly involved.

Directly involved? Their subsidies are paying for the mercs. Sure, their own security forces aren't fighting, they've got other jobs to do, but mercs paid by the megacorps are fighting. What's the actual difference?

Third System Militaries, loaned out. There are rules against using your forces elsewhere. (Same issues as above.)

Which, of course, is why we have government code 6; captive government, Vilis owning Garda-Vilis, Ivendo owning that planetoid in the Icetina system (or vice versa), why Squanine owning Burston, and a whole host of other canonical references to worlds doing precisely what you say they cannot do.

While the Imperium will prevent you from carving out your own subsector sized pocket empire, you can apparently snatch, 'colonize', or simply stomp on nearby worlds up to a point. LBB:4 even explicitly states that the Imperium quitely looks the other way while local forces settle their differences through armed conflict, only intervening when the defense of the realm is at stake. If you have the political cover, you can pretty much do as you damn please within the Imperium.

Therefore it is definitely implied that Mercenary Units can be independent and are at best only partially owned by one of the above factors.

Do you even pay attention when you read the materials?

First, there is nothing that explicitly states that any of the units involved in the tickets in LBB:4 are fully independent and quite a bit that implies that the units in question in the three most lucrative ticket are not independent at all.

Second, logistics on the level you've been so concerned about at not even touched upon. In the megacorp-sponsored striker, commando, and dream tickets it is entirely reasonable to assume that fungibles will be provided by the hiring and/or sponsoring parties. You can even make a case for major equipment being provided by the hiring and/or sponsoring parties.

Even in the cadre ticket, which is the ticket with the best chance of being filled by an independent unit, the hiring party is providing all the fungibles because the players are training locals how to properly use local equipment.

Do you really think that Sternmetal is going to let the offensive launched by it's client nation Lovrenyi founder because the mercs involved couldn't purchase enough ammo out of the ticket fee? Sternmetal is going to make sure those mercs have all the ammo they'll ever need.

Any unit that is going to actually be in combat, is going to spend more money on small arms ammo per firefight than salary per week. Double Standard Salaries as renumeration for a ticket, where the patron is not supplying the expendables, is not going to produce a profit under any circumstances.

I want you re-read the section called Financial Support on page 17 of LBB:4 and pay attention to what it says and implies. Especially the explicit and implicit differences beween long and short tickets. You should first notice that the section talk about equipment and not supplies.

Training for people recruited at a TL of one below yours...

sigh... Yet another straw man...

You don't normally plan on training recruits, at least not at the level you're assuming. You hire mercs, veterans, and newbies in that order of preference, LBB:4 even state as much with it's recruiting matrix based on experience. Unless the ticket calls for it, you're not running boot camps.

Will there be an occasional green recruit? Sure. Will there be a platoon of them? Hell no.

You continue to bring up the example of veterans needing to be retrained again to fit into merc units and use real world progress as an example. That analogy fails on several levels.

First, the Imperium hasn't progressed in the last 100 years like our real world has. Technology is essentially static. Second, a recruit from a low tech level world isn't going to be only trained on the use of flintlock muskets. The Imperium has free trade and small arms are one of those things that are always traded.

You fail to understand that tech level as described in the CT rules is something entirely different from tech level in the CT setting. Except in extremely rare cases, all of which are Red Zoned, a TL2 world complete with knights in shining armor DOES NOT EXIST next door to a TL15 world.

Lets talk about divesting the equipment between tickets.

ATPollard has already explained to you how that works. The section on page 17 of LBB:4 should explain to you also, when you read and pay attention to it.

I am trying to get a reasonable number to account for combat losses per ticket, you are adding expenses, in capital amounts, without even suffering combat loses.

Stop right there. As I posted up thread, you're trying to get a reasonable number that works with your assumptions about how the merc market should work. Your assumptions and what is actually presented are not the same thing.

Instead of coming up with a theory about how the merc market works and then changing the facts to fit the preconcieved theory, I and the others here are taking what is presented at face value and are constructing a model of the merc market that fit the known facts.

Further some of the tickets clearly suggest that many of these units are independent.

That can be debated.

(Perhaps not independent to the point that they have no outside backers, but independent of major Megacorp, Government or Nobel influence.)

Score a laugh point. That's like being a 'little bit' pregnant.

After all if they weren't independent then why would LSP hire Mercs, they could just send their own guys.

Because their own guys are busy with their own jobs? Because Wackenhut is not Executive Solutions? Because they need to work through third parties for appearences sake? There are doznes of reasons.

Drop your assumptions. Take the known facts and fashion a theory that fits them, not the other way around.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by flykiller:
for the organization overall, it is. for the military unit, it isn't. military ops could be viewed as an operating expense, the costs of which will be passed along to the customer or back to the membership.

Fly,

Very true.

Organizations can also take a long view and Traveller's megacorps are said to take a very long view indeed.

The books needn't balance this week or this month. Hell, with megacorps they needn't balance this decade or century.

With billions (Marastan) or trillions (Porozlo, Aramanx) in the offing, what's a few tens of millions?


Have fun,
Bill

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
First Nobles are not supposed to get involved in local politics...

Bruce,

In the Warrant of Restoration, the Imperium reserves the right to interfere wherever and whenever it deems appropriate. Using semi-deniable, third party forces like huscarles on their 'day off' is a perfect fig leaf.</font>[/QUOTE]The Imperium does, the Local Nobels do not. You can consider that one and the same I personally don't. The general feeling I always got was that the Nobility was above local politics and neither desired nor were allowed to significantly interfere.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Second, Megacorp Security Forces. Again there are problems if the Megacorps interfere with the local planets.

Which, of course, is why LSP is arming Clan Hardretter on Marstan, why 'outside' corporations have subsidized the nation of Stepozhevac and the Free Commerc Bloc on Porozlo, and why Sternmetal is is subsidizing the nation of Lovrenyi on Aramanx.</font>[/QUOTE]However there is a problem if the Majority of Mercenary Units are in a Corporation's pocket. Take Marstan for example. LSP backs the play of Clan Hardretter, but the Merc unit they hire, since they obviously aren't hiring one in LSP's pocket or the ticket would have been kept internally, is in the pocket of Stern Metal Horizons. According to you they have to belong to someone. Suddenly LSP is handing over the Clan it is backing to their biggest rivals. Now that is absolutely brilliant. LSP is obviously looking for a Merc unit that isn't in someone's pocket but can be bought and be expected to stay bought to do the job. Where there are big corporations there is money to be made as independents.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Hence roughly half the tickets are sponsored by one Corp or another, who can't get directly involved.

Directly involved? Their subsidies are paying for the mercs. Sure, their own security forces aren't fighting, they've got other jobs to do, but mercs paid by the megacorps are fighting. What's the actual difference?</font>[/QUOTE]If the Mercs are all in one pocket or another instead of being independent it makes a huge difference as they will only hire their mercs for a job instead of risking putting someone else in a position of power.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Third System Militaries, loaned out. There are rules against using your forces elsewhere. (Same issues as above.)

Which, of course, is why we have government code 6, captive government, Vilis owning Garda-Vilis, Ivendo owning that planetoid in the Icetina system (or vice versa), why Squanine owning Burston, and a whole host of other canonical references to worlds doing precisely what you say they cannot do.

While the Imperium will prevent you from carving out your own subsector sized pocket empire, you can apparently snatch, 'colonize', or simply stomp on nearby worlds up to a point. LBB4 even explicitly states that the Imperium quitely looks the other way while local forces settle their differences through armed conflict, only intervening when the defense of the realm is at stake. If you have the political cover, you can pretty much do as you damn please within the Imperium.</font>[/QUOTE]As long as you don't engage in any disruption of trade and limit the effects of these wars. Wars of conquest are explicitly prohibited in the Imperial Rules of War. Just because it is a captive government does not mean that the planet was captured militarily.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Therefore it is definitely implied that Mercenary Units can be independent and are at best only partially owned by one of the above factors.

Do you even pay attention when you read the materials?</font>[/QUOTE]Better, apparently, than you understand the realities of training soldiers.

First, there is nothing that explicitly states that any of the units involved in the tickets in LBB 4 are fully independent and quite a bit that implies that the units in question in the three most lucrative ticket are not independent at all.

I read and understand English quite well. Demonstrate the implication that the units in question are not independent. Where does it imply that? It doesn't even list the unit. How does it imply that? It states that a Battalion is required, not that a Battalion that is beholden to LSP is required. The only implication that Units are not independent is that you can't see them being any other way. Unless you are reading something other than LBB4, Adventure 7, 76 Patrons, or EA6-7. Where are you reading this material?

You asked how a Merc unit could be funded without Megacorp backing? And show you the money for start up costs. Sure. Here is the money.

Here is an example of non-corporate influence. 5 Merchants that got rich with Spec Trade decide that they should diversify. One of them ran into a Lieutenant that seemed competent and saved the Merchant's life while the Lieutenant was serving as a Mercenary and pulling Security Duty at a Starport. The Merchants approach the Lieutenant and offer to stake him in creating a Mercenary Unit if he can demonstrate how he can show a profit. After all Billions can be made in Spec Trade. They also give this now older Lieutenant, a full partnership in the ownership of the unit as he is the one with the expertise. Hmmm. No Megacorp influence. No Nobility or Local Government required. Plenty of Independent Merchants, and since Spec trade is so lucrative, the Majority of them are rich enough. Independent Merchants are many, Mega Corporations and Nobility are few. Over time the Mercenary commander buys out his partners and now owns the unit free and clear.

Second Option. A Junior Officer serving in a Mercenary Unit gets promoted, gets bonuses, works his way up the chain and gets rich doing this. He decides that he isn't going to be able to go any further so he takes the money he has been carefully saving and decides to strike out on his own. He builds his own Mercenary unit from his previous savings. Starting small and building as his success earn him more money, especially since he isn't paying partners, and his reputation as a winner, allows his unit to grow.

Third option. An Imperial Marine Officer, after serving 20 years gets fed up with the service. They shot his puppy or something, who cares. He takes his severance Pay, his experience as both a Leader and a recruiter, grabs a buddy or two of his that is also getting out, and together they pool their resources. They start small, if you stay away from Combat armor and Plasma guns you can equip a decent sized Platoon for around KCr150, that is a starting point. You can add on from there, in terms of equipment a piece at a time. Yes it will, probably in both option 2 and 3 take a while before they are fielding Battalions, but it isn't all that far down the road for a successful and hungry unit.

Second, logistics on the level you've been so concerned about at not even touched upon. In the megacorp-sponsored striker, commando, and dream tickets it is entirely reasonable to assume that fungibles will be provided by the hiring and/or sponsoring parties. You can even make a case for major equipment being provided by the hiring and/or sponsoring parties.

Actually it specifically states in both of the Battalion tickets in LBB4 that the Units have to supply their own equipment and in one allows a specific amount of money to get some of it but definitely no where near any type of Mech unit, that the ticket appears to call for, and that equipment comes out of your bottom line. They specifically ask for a certain type of unit at a specific size. Why would they do that if all they want is warm bodies to ride in their vehicles?

How is a TL6 world going to produce ammo for a TL9-TL12 unit? Most of the tickets are on TL<8 worlds. There are of course exceptions. Further Ammunition and other consumables are the only thing that are actually accounted for in the rules. Beans and bullets you can count. Vehicle repairs and maintenance are not covered well.

Even in the cadre ticket, which is the ticket with the best chance of being filled by an independent unit, the hiring party is providing all the fungibles because the players are training locals how to properly use local equipment.

This ticket is obvious that the ammo and weapons are going to be supplied. But in the Marastan Ticket the Ammunition is not being supplied for free, it is specified that they will have to buy it. (Though at a reduced cost.) How would any of these low tech worlds supply the obviously copious amounts of ammo that are to be used?

Do you really think that Sternmetal is going to let the offensive launched by it's client nation Lovrenyi founder because the mercs involved couldn't purchase enough ammo out of the ticket fee? Sternmetal is going to make sure those mercs have all the ammo they'll ever need.

If they have that much pull or want it that badly, why not just use their own security "consultants" and be done with it. Why take chances? Do I think Sternmetal would let a unit run out of ammo? Yes, I do. After all the contract was success only, there is obviously only so much the Corporation is willing to invest.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Any unit that is going to actually be in combat, is going to spend more money on small arms ammo per firefight than salary per week. Double Standard Salaries as renumeration for a ticket, where the patron is not supplying the expendables, is not going to produce a profit under any circumstances.

I want you re-read the section called Financial Support on page 17 of LBB4 and pay attention to what it says and implies. Especially the explicit and implicit differences beween long and short tickets. You should first notice that the section talk about equipment and not supplies. </font>[/QUOTE]Correct it does talk about equipment and not supplies. But it doesn't say where the supplies are coming from either. The Marastan Ticket does specify that ammunition will be supplied at 10% of list. So right there in the first ticket there is a specific reference to Ammunition supply. Now where do you read anything that states that Ammunition supply is the responsibility of the Party offering the ticket?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Training for people recruited at a TL of one below yours...

sigh... Yet another straw man...

You don't normally plan on training recruits, at least not at the level you're assuming. You hire mercs, veterans, and newbies in that order of preference, LBB4 even state as much with it's recruiting matrix based on experience. Unless the ticket calls for it, you're not running boot camps.</font>[/QUOTE]And you will note I said 2 weeks, not 12 weeks. Lets look at this another way. If I hire Mercs that all used to be US Army Rangers serving in the same timeframe, and supply them with M-16s, M-203's and other equipment that they would have used while they served as Rangers, then you are correct, I would only have to train them long enough so they all were on the same sheet of music in terms of communications, Chain of command, and mission prep. But if I didn't have enough ex-US Army Rangers around and I had to hire a couple of US Army Veterans that used to be Logistics Drivers and expected them to do the same job as the Rangers they would need some additional training. Now if I hired a pair of Rangers, 2 Truck Drivers, and 5 Spetznatz Veterans, and gave them all Galils, then they would all require training, in particular Weapon Familiarization, Communication, Movement to Contact, etc. Now I am equipping a unit with M-1 Tanks and I hire T-34 tank crews, to man them, do you really think they could do this without training? Even if they served at the battle of Stalingrad? These guys are Mercenaries! They don't need training! How about putting a Sopwith Camel Pilot in an SU-27? You think that will work?

Second when recruiting your Mercenaries and Veteran Officers, on a Pop-6 world, how many do you get per 2 weeks? None! On a Pop 5 world what kind of recruits do you get, Raw recruits. No other types.

Will there be an occasional green recruit? Sure. Will there be a platoon of them? Hell no.

How long do you plan on recruiting before accepting this ticket? You can recruit maybe a Platoon per two weeks, if you are willing to accept simply veterans, instead of only Veteran Officers and Mercenaries. And only if you are on a High Population World. There are 3-4 platoons in a Company. There are 3-5 Companies in a Battalion. Where are all these seasoned Mercenaries coming from? Not in any rulebook I have. If the majority of people you accept are "Mercenaries" Then you will be lucky to recruit a Squad per two weeks.

You continue to bring up the example of veterans needing to be retrained again to fit into merc units and use real world progress as an example. That analogy fails on several levels.

First, the Imperium hasn't progressed in the last 100 years like our real world has. Technology is essentially static. Second, a recruit from a low tech level world isn't going to be only trained on the use of flintlock muskets. The Imperium has free trade and small arms are one of those things that are always traded.

If that was the case then why are there various Tech Levels? Shouldn't it all be relatively level then? Second the opposition in many of the tickets is specified as units equipped to a specific Tech Level. If your assumption is correct then why aren't they all equipped to TL15?

You fail to understand that tech level as described in the CT rules is something entirely different from tech level in the CT setting. Except in extremely rare cases, all of which are Red Zoned, a TL2 world complete with knights in shining armor DOES NOT EXIST next door to a TL15 world.

Oh really? How about The Rhylanor Cluster. 3 systems Jump 1 apart. TL15, TL10, TL8. Lets move to Mora, Sector Capital. Mora TL15, Jokotre TL7, Dojodo TL7, Nadrin TL6. All of these are J-1 from Mora. Jokotre TL7 is sandwiched between Mora at TL15 and Fornice TL12. How many more do you want me to illustrate? The OTU is full of that kind of disparity in TL between neighbors. What Traveller setting are you using? So it isn't TL15 and Tl2 next to each other, WWII Tanks Next door to the latest Grav vehicles. Spitfires against Trepidia Tanks. I suppose you think that the Spitfire Pilot can fly that Trepidia just by sitting in the cockpit?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Lets talk about divesting the equipment between tickets.

ATPollard has already explained to you how that works. The section on page 17 of LBB4 should explain to you also, when you read and pay attention to it.</font>[/QUOTE]I did read it. For a Long Ticket equipment is supplied, for a short ticket, which is the majority of the canon tickets, the Unit supplies its own equipment. What am I missing? Or more importantly what are you reading into that?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I am trying to get a reasonable number to account for combat losses per ticket, you are adding expenses, in capital amounts, without even suffering combat loses.

Stop right there. As I posted up thread, you're trying to get a reasonable number that works with your assumptions about how the merc market should work. Your assumptions and what is actually presented are not the same thing.</font>[/QUOTE]OK I am reading way into things here. Lets take that as a base here. I am forcing my frame of reference on the tickets here. On which ticket where the patron does not supply transport, there are a couple of those, does it state that the patron is responsible for covering the Mercenary Unit's loss of a tank? On which ticket does it even imply that? And if it implies it, how is it implied? Please show me where it says that a Mercenary Unit can get all shot up and not have to worry about expenses of replacing those losses. And how a TL6 world is going to replace a TL10 Tank in the first place is another issue. A Company ticket that the unit successfully fullfills, pays MCr3. During the ticket the company lost one of its MCr10 tanks. Who is responsible for replacing the tank? Even if they rent it if they lose it they are still not just out the rental fee but the price of the tank as well. Now if they have to pay to replace major end items, how is that not part of the unit's expenses?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Instead of coming up with a theory about how the merc market works and then changing the facts to fit the preconcieved theory, I and the others here are taking what is presented at face value and are constructing a model of the merc market that fit the known facts.

As opposed to your unfounded assumptions on how the Mercenary Business is handled with no basis in either the real world or the Traveller rules. Come on Bill, all you are offering is rhetoric. Do you have anything to back it up? Anything at all that says that the majority of Mercenary units are in the pocket of a Megacorp? That independent Mercenary Units are the exception not the rule?

My assumptions are misguided and unfounded. Yours are correct without any basis or evidence in the rules. Fine show me why my thoughts on this have to be wrong and yours have to be correct. (Citing references.)

[qb]Further some of the tickets clearly suggest that many of these units are independent.

That can be debated.

So debate it. Show how it isn't possible using canon sources. All you are offering is your opposing view.

[qb]After all if they weren't independent then why would LSP hire Mercs, they could just send their own guys.

Because their own guys are busy with their own jobs? Because Wackenhut is not Executive Solutions? Because they need to work through third parties for appearences sake? There are doznes of reasons.

Drop your assumptions. Take the known facts and fashion a theory that fits them, not the other way around.

</font>

Show these known facts. I am apparently blind. I don't see any known facts when it comes to Megacorps owning 90+% of the Mercenary trade.

 

[BetterThanLife]

I'll even go one more step. A canon source where a Independent Mercenary Unit is based off a Starting Player Character. T20, Mustering out benefit for Mercenary Career Track: Mercenary Cruiser. Add that and enough bonus and Mustering out money and you have a Independent Mercenary Unit. (That has to make payments on a Starship.) Or am I reading too much into that?